French headscarf ban recommended

[MLF 0]

Hmmm what dya think on this one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3309885.stm

Quote[/b] ]Muslim girls in France could be barred from wearing headscarves in schools after an expert commission recommended a ban on "conspicuous" religious signs.

The official commission headed by former minister Bernard Stasi has released its findings on issues relating to religion and the state.

French President Jacques Chirac will announce next week whether he supports the commission's recommendation.

The ban would also include the Jewish skull-cap and large Christian crosses.

Please make a proper post if you wish to make a thread out of a news item, do not simply post a url - Placebo

[Acecombat 0]

More secularistic bull , no doubt

[Supah 0]

More secularistic bull , no doubt  

Now what on earth is wrong with secularisme? You want a return to the dark ages? I dont.

[Tamme 0]

More secularistic bull , no doubt  

Now what on earth is wrong with secularisme? You want a return to the dark ages? I dont.

And how on earth does religion return us to the dark ages?

[Acecombat 0]

Dont tell me your falling in to some sort of dark age by wearing a scarf ?

All this stupidity surrounding an article of cloth is nothing more then stripping people slowly of their belief .... if you dont wanna believe in something fine dont no ones forcing you to at least respect the other persons belief.

Besides WTF the bloody Scarf got to do with religion anyway ... Explain this please ...

[denoir 0]

I'm split on the issue. On one hand I'm for freedom of religious expression, but I'm also aware that there has to be reasonable limits. In Europe we have a very strict separation of church and state. And the obligations to the state/other citizens come before the obligations to your faith. If your religion does not interfere with other people in a negative way then it's cool, otherwise it's not. And just as a western woman visiting a strict muslim country will have to wear a veil, so will the muslim women here have to adapt to our secular culture.

And veils (especially the all-covering) does impede communication between for instance teachers and students.

Furthermore it's also a question of woman's rights. I have a very strong feeling that a significant percentage of the european muslim female population is being pressured by tradition and relatives to wear veils rather than by their own choice. That's also not acceptable in our culture.

The whole concept of treating people differently based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality or sex is very incompatible with our european democratic ideologies and culture. Why is that kind of separation of men and women acceptable, when apartheid in south africa was not?

[WhoCares 0]

Hi ace, I guess you remember our discussion about this topic a few days ago

However, I see a difference between this french proposal and the german case also mention in the article. In the german case its about an employee and thus a representant of the state, while this proposal extends it to the students...

[ran 0]

I'm split on the issue. On one hand I'm for freedom of religious expression, but I'm also aware that there has to be reasonable limits. In Europe we have a very strict separation of church and state. And the obligations to the state/other citizens come before the obligations to your faith. If your religion does not interfere with other people in a negative way then it's cool, otherwise it's not. And just as a western woman visiting a strict muslim country will have to wear a veil, so will the muslim women here have to adapt to our secular culture.

And veils (especially the all-covering) does impede communication between for instance teachers and students.

Furthermore it's also a question of woman's rights. I have a very strong feeling that a significant percentage of the european muslim female population is being pressured by tradition and relatives to wear veils rather than by their own choice. That's also not acceptable in our culture.

The whole concept of treating people differently based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality or sex is very incompatible with our european democratic ideologies and culture. Why is that kind of separation of men and women acceptable, when apartheid in south africa was not?

I'm with Denoir on this one

[CosmicCastaway 0]

I'm with Denoir on this one

Agreed. That just about covers how I feel about the whole situation too.

[Supah 0]

Dont tell me your falling in to some sort of dark age by wearing a scarf ?  

All this stupidity surrounding an article of cloth is nothing more then stripping people slowly of their belief .... if you dont wanna believe in something fine dont no ones forcing you to at least respect the other persons belief.

Besides WTF the bloody Scarf got to do with religion anyway ... Explain this please ...  

I wasnt reffering to the whole headscarf story but more to your

Quote[/b] ]More secularistic bull , no doubt  

Remark. Secularisme is what has made the west great. We long lived under the yoke of a repressive religion (catholicisme/christianity) Which virtually crippled our society in ways ranging from medicine to civil liberties. We shed that giant weight on our shoulders and we grew beyond recognition. In the end, thanks to Science not religious dogma saying the earth is flat and the center of the universe, it took us too the moon. Look at nations still deeply steeped in religion, strange how they are all poor apart from a small elite.

About the headscarfes. In the western europe it is considered extremely rude to wear any head dress inside. People should adapt the customs of the country they move too. Simple as that. If me and the wife go to pakistan on a vacation she isnt allowed to run around in a mini skirt and short upper clothing either.

Quote[/b] ]Besides WTF the bloody Scarf got to do with religion anyway ...

Well if it has nothing to do with religion then its just those women being extremely rude and offensive. You dont wear head wear inside, like it or not. If its just a piece of clothing for these women then why do they make such a drama about taking it off?

[WhoCares 0]

Well, I don't like the extension to the students. To be consequent, they would have to prohibit wearing such religious signs in all state-run locations, e.g. to visitors of the parliament, on police stations, in public offices, a.s.o.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]And veils (especially the all-covering) does impede communication between for instance teachers and students.

Oh please post a pic showing a women in all covered Hijab teaching in a school in France , EVEN if she wears it i can bet on it safely that shes wearing it while commuting to work and when shes in class she would have took it off ofcourse you cant teach with a hijab on

This was a very EXAGGERATED comment .

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore it's also a question of woman's rights. I have a very strong feeling that a significant percentage of the european muslim female population is being pressured by tradition and relatives to wear veils rather than by their own choice. That's also not acceptable in our culture.

Oh boy here we go again , denoir did you went in to every muslim individuals residence and asked them if thewomen were wearing the scarf of their own accord or not. Yes inn some cases women are made to wear it because of peer pressure and religious too , but most of the families who are living in Europe (a non-muslim) place , dont follow such strict adherence to religious rules anyway , so i can once agains safely asume that most women who wear a scarf there 'ARE doing it on their OWN FREE WILL' ... anyone who takes away a womens right to cover her body parts is in violation of her rights too.

Quote[/b] ] And just as a western woman visiting a strict muslim country will have to wear a veil, so will the muslim women here have to adapt to our secular culture.

Sorry i dont agree culture and religion are 2 different things not the same , if a women wants to wear an article of garment its her wish atleast shes covering herself , a western women doesnt has to wear a veil even if its a rule they normally dont , besides the whole VEIL issue is BASICALLY wrong its a mis-conception to say VEIL is a religious artifact it bloody isnt , VEIL has been around for centurys before Islam was here.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Remark. Secularisme is what has made the west great. We long lived under the yoke of a repressive religion (catholicisme/christianity) Which virtually crippled our society in ways ranging from medicine to civil liberties.

THATS because of the people who follow christainity never even know what christainity was all about , christainity's very teachings have been long lost in the anals of time thanks to us 'human beings' who used it twist it according to our wishes , christainity has been changed ,ditted,cstomized by 'other' people who had no right to do it in th first place that it simply isnt even the 'real thing' anymore i mean look at Christmas it isnt even a christain holiday its a pagan one which the Romans took from them.

fact of the matter is Christainitys ideals/principles never were against scienticfic research.

[denoir 0]

There is another wider issue here, and I'd really like to hear what you think about it.

Situation:Europe has a fast growing muslim population. It grows more rapidly than the 'original' European one.

Problem:A large degree of segregation exist between the muslim and the European population. This has its roots in very fundamental cultural differences. Europeans are generally secular liberals while the muslims are generally religious conservatives. And the tensions are getting high. There has been a rise of violence against people of arabic origin. Arabic communities have isolated themselves more and the segregation has increased. In France for instance there have been a rise of violence agianst Jews comitted by arabs. Also things like "honor killings" of women are making the head lines. In short it's getting very segregated and very confrontational.

Paradox: With the current population trends, in 100 years or so, people of European origin will be in minority in Europe. This means that through our democratic system our system of values and our culture will be replaced by something we don't approve of. At the same time our very liberal nature and culture includes respect for other cultures and faiths - even those that would not respect our culture. So we're at a point where we can either hold to our liberal tolerant values and see them being replaced by a conservative intolerant system or we can try to prevent it and by that abandoning our libaral tolerant culture ourselves. See the problem? If you respect all peoples' values and beliefs then you also have to respect those that do not share them. And if they outnumber you then your own system dictates that it will be replaced.

And this is not some abstract future problem. It's happened in the Netherlands already. The Netherlands used to be the most open, liberal country in Europe. Tensions grew high however between the Dutch and the muslim population and the Netherlands closed up and became much more intolerant. And it's sad really as it used to be such a nice country.

So how can this dilemma be solved?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Netherlands used to be the most open, liberal country in Europe. Tensions grew high however between the Dutch and the muslim population and the Netherlands closed up and became much more intolerant.

Why did the tension happen in the first place?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]And veils (especially the all-covering) does impede communication between for instance teachers and students.

Oh please post a pic showing a women in all covered Hijab teaching in a school in France    , EVEN if she wears it i can bet on it safely that shes wearing it while commuting to work and when shes in class she would have took it off ofcourse you cant teach with a hijab on  

This was a very EXAGGERATED comment .

Not at all, we had just weeks ago a similar decision in Sweden. It wasn't about Hijab but about Burka (it completely covers the head and the eyes too)

[different types of muslim veils]

And the conclusion reached was the same that the French did, although not to full extent. Right now Burkas are the only ones banned, Hijab and Nikab are still allowed.

[Tamme 0]

Are christians allowed to carry a cross with them in France? I bet they are. So what's the problem with hijab? Who does it offend?

[Acecombat 0]

I asked you to post a pic of a teacher wearing a nikab or a burka or a hijad while teaching

I know what the thing looks like in reaf life FFS

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Netherlands used to be the most open, liberal country in Europe. Tensions grew high however between the Dutch and the muslim population and the Netherlands closed up and became much more intolerant.

Why did the tension happen in the first place?  

Cultural differences and segregation. You can see it in this thread too. You see secularism as something bad while we take pride in it.

Now the Netherlands is extremely liberal, especially in social terms of sex, drugs etc

And they have had in the last decade a lot of arabic immigrants that don't approve of the Dutch culture at all. So they did protest it in every possible way, which the Dutch in turn didn't approve of. And in the end they elected an anti-immigrant xenophobic party and the country closed up step by step.

[denoir 0]

Are christians allowed to carry a cross with them in France? I bet they are. So what's the problem with hijab? Who does it offend?

No they're not. And neither are the jewish caps. It's a complete ban on visible religious insignia in public schools.

So it doesn't single the muslims out, but it's fairly obvious that they are the target due to integration problems.

[ran 0]

Are christians allowed to carry a cross with them in France? I bet they are. So what's the problem with hijab? Who does it offend?

well ... if it's a small cross ... no problem , we allow Fatma hands , small david stars , but no real visible signs such as kippas , veils , large crosses

[theavonlady 2]

More secularistic bull , no doubt  

I'm with you here, buddy-buddy!

[Supah 0]

And this is not some abstract future problem. It's happened in the Netherlands already. The Netherlands used to be the most open, liberal country in Europe. Tensions grew high however between the Dutch and the muslim population and the Netherlands closed up and became much more intolerant. And it's sad really as it used to be such a nice country.

So how can this dilemma be solved?

You know why this happened? We have a large marrocan minority. The vast majority of them have maintained their religion but have become valuable members of our population. A small minorty (mainly juvinile boys) have however been causing problems far more then people their own age in other demographic groups. When our government tried to approach this problem in a very liberal way, by looking for reasons why these groups go wrong they have only been called racists and their plans sabotaged by the marrocan community. When ever there has been critisme they have always emediatly adopted the role of victim. This basically stops any attempt to do something about these problems. You denoir might know that the previous dutch governments werent ones to do something "wrong". But those plans never worked because the marrocan community didnt want to work with the government.

Every time a group of marrocans young people crosses a line we get a message from their elders that they regret the behaviour, we come with steps to do something against it, they emediatly call the officials racists. Recently the rise of the AEL (Arabic European League) has inflamed the situation even more. A few days back they tried to hijack TV Stations in belgium. A while back in the netherlands when a marrocan man attacked a police officer with a knife and was shot the AEL IMMEDIATLY said it was the police officers fault and set about whipping the marrocan part of our populace in to a fury, almost a lynch mob. When the facts came out that he was attacking the officer with a knife they said he was attacking someone else not the officer, well in my book that still makes the police man right in shooting. He wasnt shot because he was a marrocan. He was shot because he was being very aggresive with a knife towards a armed police officer. Had he been a non marrocan he would have been shot just the same. But we allready know that what ever the outcome of the official inquiry the AEL is going to say it was botched and done by racists and that the knife wielding person was just showing off his nice knife.

After 9-11 many people became more afraid of muslims. Not that the people who commited those horrible crime have anything to do with the Islam. They abuse its name for their own purposes. However many people became fearfull of all muslims nonetheless, which is sad.

Then Pim Fortuijn came on to the scene. He prayed on people's fear and fed those fears. He gave them a scapegoat, leftwing politicians and all foreigners, blamed for everything from crime to the economic downturn. The poorer white folks (mostly with very little education) bought in to this. Now none of them had voted in years but fortuijn got them to vote again. Its being said nowadays that atleast Fortuijn did something about voter apathy, but for what cause? I may be very bad for saying this but this whole deal started to remind me of Adolf Hitlers rise to power. And then Fortuijn was assasinated. Some say its horrible, some say its good, i am not saying anything I can only think what would have happened if someone shot hitler back then ....

The strange shift to right wing politics mainly is down to people's fears of islam (largely unfounded). the marrocan community refusal to play a constructive role in building up a working method of solving the problems that cause a significant portion of their youths to turn to crime and the international rise of terrorisme. It sadens me as a dutchman too. It is unworthy of this once very liberal country. Luckily right wing politics are failing to do anything about the economic down turn (like they always have). This government wont be reellected and the Fortuijners will be back to their daily airings of Idols and Big Brother come next election period. Or atleast i hope so

[ran 0]

well , arabian people always had integration problems , but it's getting worse nowadays .....

we're actually in the 3rd generation of arab immigrants , which is more and more targetted by hard-line islamists and fundamentalists

the 1st generation lived as they did in their country of birth , Morocco , Algeria , Tunisia but they tried as much as they could to integrate the 2nd generation in french society which they did relatively well

[denoir 0]

The strange shift to right wing politics mainly is down to people's fears of islam (largely unfounded). the marrocan community refusal to play a constructive role in building up a working method of solving the problems that cause a significant portion of their youths to turn to crime and the international rise of terrorisme.  It sadens me as a dutchman too. It is unworthy of this once very liberal country. Luckily right wing politics are failing to do anything about the economic down turn (like they always have). This government wont be reellected and the Fortuijners will be back to their daily airings of Idols and Big Brother come next election period. Or atleast i hope so

Removing the Fortuijners might restore you to your former self and a likable country, but the integration problem is still not solved. There is obviously a cultural clash going on, and it's not just the Netherlands (you just reacted exceptionally badly to it). For instance this French headscarf ban is a step in the same direction of taking pre-emptive action to prevent further segregation - by forcing them to adjust to our ideals and culture.

...

I think however I have a solution. We must teach the European teenagers the joys of unprotected sex and by that get a population boom that can outcompete the immigration.