War against terror

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, I'm not comparing them to the Nazi but AKM called them the Nazis of the Middle East. :/

Well I only saw you. So please let it rest and not do it again.

Quote[/b] ]Did some crappy editing to make it rated G....

Oh for God sake you just dont know when to to stop, do you?

[Nemesis6 0]

About making peace with the terrorist groups: It's like hoping for world peace; The thought is good, but it just isn't possible. You don't see the kid wearing glasses trying to befriend the bully, whos sole quarrel with him is that he's there, do you?

Also, about Arafat, it's not just money for his wife. He has been hiding international aid money in secret bank accounts. Just to discredit him; He was NOT a good thing for the Palestinians. In fact, he was probably one of the worst things.

Now, about those settlements' security: I doubt Arafat would give a damn about the security of others, much less Israelis.

More generally speaking: Statistically, apparently Hamas is going to win the next election... so we'll see what happens at that time.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I only saw you. So please let it rest and not do it again.

Asking me not do it again...no How about reading posts that come before somebody elses. :/

[SFWanabe 0]

Your the one who said it and offended everyone so no I dont have to read his post so let it go before the mods come.

[miles teg 1]

About making peace with the terrorist groups: It's like hoping for world peace; The thought is good, but it just isn't possible. You don't see the kid wearing glasses trying to befriend the bully, whos sole quarrel with him is that he's there, do you?

Also, about Arafat, it's not just money for his wife. He has been hiding international aid money in secret bank accounts. Just to discredit him; He was NOT a good thing for the Palestinians. In fact, he was probably one of the worst things.

Now, about those settlements' security: I doubt Arafat would give a damn about the security of others, much less Israelis.

More generally speaking: Statistically, apparently Hamas is going to win the next election... so we'll see what happens at that time.

Hahaha... that's a very very very bad comparison.

First of all who's the kid with the glasses and who's the bully??? Israel FAR outguns the Palistinians. This is NOT about just bullying someone cuz they are there. Any Palistinian will tell you that they are fighting for their freedom and for their land and against oppression and occupation.

Also it is NOT like hoping for world peace. If the Israeli people decide to take that attitude then they should forget about peace and quit doing things half-assed. They need to focus all efforts on the production of nuclear weapons so they can solve the "arab problem" once and for all by first killing every living Palistinian man, woman, and child in the occuppied territories, and then focus on nuking every major Arab/Muslim city in the world so that they will never again be a major threat. They can start off with nuking Mecca and Medina.

Its that or waiting around pissing Arabs off over and over again until eventually one of them gets nukes and is crazy enough to nuke Israel and make his country a country of martyrs by the resulting Israeli nuclear counter-attack.

This is the obvious conclusion to the current state of things if Israel gives up hope of making peace with terrorits. You simply CAN NOT KILL THEM OFF without wiping out the Palistinian people as whole and then wiping out most of the Arab race off the face of the earth.

But Israelies are so damn stubborn and refuse to look at the obvious cause and effect relationships because they are so focused on demonizing their enemy and trying to kill them rather then trying to understand what motivates their enemy and what makes their enemy hate Israelies so deeply.

As for Arafat, don't judge his heart unless you're God or a mind reader. He was a half-senile old man and yes I'm well aware of his horrific corruption. But he wasn't the only one that was corrupt. The entire PLA is very corrupt.

That is why Hamas is likely to win the next election. The Palistinians trust Hamas a hell of alot more then the PLA.

Last I checked Hamas was a terrorist organization. So if the people vote in Hamas, that means they are mostly terrorist supporters or terrorists. So if the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, then you see...the logical answer is the killing of all Palistinians because if they escape they will continue their fight from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.

But Israelies can then say, "Well they wanted to exterminate us so we had to exterminate them first." But then the rest of the Arab and Muslim world will almost certainly react with extreme violence against Israel. Hence the need for a massive nuclear weapons program on the part of Israel with prepositioned nuclear weapons placed in most major Arab cities with sleeper Mossad agents managing the nuclear devices. It will mean the extermination of millions upon millions of people, but all in the name of saving Israel and besides Arabs are all Jew hating animals right?

What other way is there aside from either 1. Letting things continue until the Arab nations are strong enough militarily and nuclear capable to take out Israel or 2. Israelies actually open their eyes and realize that maybe...just maybe... they need a 3rd party to intervene and settle the dispute, send in peacekeepers (yes on Israeli soil as well), and truly try to negotiate DIRECTLY with the groups that are fightng Israel the most...namely the TERRORISTS.

If you know of any other solutions, feel free to state them.

Also by the way, yes Arafat I'm sure didn't care for the security of Israeli settlements but in case you didn't notice those settlements split the Palistinian territories. This is exactly the problem and the #1 reason why the plan was completely unacceptable to most Palistinians. Tell me... what if the Palistinians were given a strip of land going straight through Israel with security fences and gates where you had to be searched every time you went thru one of those checkpoints? Right thru YOUR country just because some terrorists were living in settlements in the middle of Israel. Would you agree to that?

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment and think about it.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

A third party does sound interesting, but you have to remember that the majority of things the IDF do is prevent terrorism. As of recently, it hasn't been them who have been going after the terrorists. The terrorists have sent their children to the checkpoints wired with explosives, they've sent kids to smuggle weapons, thus getting some of them killed, and they've also had their would-be suicide bombers and gun-wielding psychos stopped by the IDF. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that recently, the IDF has stopped more attacks than it has made itself. The thing is: You don't hear about it. You don't read about it. Well, you might have, but it will, and it has been, for that matter, covered up in editorialized headlines such as "Two Palestinians detained" or "Palestinian killed in....". You never hear the story. You never hear what really happend, and that is precisely where european anti-semitism thrives: In the headlines, in the news, etc.

But sending in a third part could be interesting... but it could also mean more deaths. Let's say we send in, oh, I don't know... the U.N. to monitor this. Chances are that those "peacekeepers" will ruin any attempts by Israel to thwart terror attacks and suicide bombings. They're likely to just become dead weight on the shoulders of the IDF. I doubt they would have any real purpose other than to be in the way.

If the Israelis should comply with your policy of not catching and killing terrorists, then what the crap should they do instead? Let Abu Mazen deal with it? Like Egypt did, and does, when Israel forwards them intelligence on the whereabouts of terrorists; He has done nothing about it. Only difference is, Abu Mazen has stated that he has no intention of disarming or dealing with the terrorists. None whatsoever. He has, on quite the contrary, integrated them into the police services.

By the way, if their so-called "president" can deny the happening of the Holocaust, shouldn't the Israelis be able to deny any wrongdoings against the Palestinians? Just thinking out loud here...

In my opinion, Israel didn't bring this situation on the Palestinians. Israel has done many things to try to help them. They've even given them weapons(Which, FYI, got to the terrorists instead of the police, but now they're one big entity, anyway!).

They don't need money, they don't need weapons, and they don't need a state. What they need right now is a better mentality, and for the love of someone-up-high, get Sheikh Muhammed Ibrahim Maadi off TV!

In the words of Golda Meir - "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

[miles teg 1]

I agree with you that the Palistinians have some serious growing up to do.  But you have to understand that the enviornment there is not totally of their own making.  Israel has a huge role in creating the type of enviornment that terrorism and Islamic extremism thrives in.  They don't hate Israelies simply because of bitter grapes over losing land in past conflicts.  They stay bitter because of the continued hardships and humiliation they face on a day to day basis.

 

But thats why I brought up Lebanon.  They had a horrific civil war with the Christians, but despite a few provocations against the Christian community recently (widely blamed on Syria) overall both Christians and Muslims have rallied together to support democracy and not take up arms.  Christians were also not massacred at the end of their civil war when the SLA collapsed after the Israeli pullout.  They could have easily been massacred, but overall aside from a few ugly incidents, things stabilized and Christians are allowed to do their own thing in Lebanon.

So there's no reason why Israelies and Palistinians can't reconcile, but the key is working with the worst of the militant groups.  Ya know they might keep calling for the destruction of Israel because Israel keeps bombing them and bulldozing their houses.  That has a tendancy to REALLY piss people off when you do that to them.  Of coarse Isrealies can argue that Palistinians simply brought it upon themselves by the actions of the terrorists they support, but the Palistinians don't see it that way.

Right now the Israeli government seems pretty clueless about how to deal with Gaza after the pullout as it stands to become a nation called "Hamas".  There is talk about an open border with Egypt and evenually a seaport being built but everyone knows that's complete nonsense.  If they suddenly got an open border with Egypt and were truly treated like their own little country, then weapons would flood into Gaza and militants would redouble their attacks on Israel.  Alot of time needs to pass to let passions cool down.  What they could do however is allow travel and trade but with Israelies manning the borders and doing X-ray searches of vehicles and have dogs sniff for explosives.  When a seaport is built (if its ever built) the same thing can be done with inspections of ships.  It would be expensive, but worth it in the long run. Eventually things could be completely handed over to the Palistinians if they showed no signs of preparing for more attacks against Israel and if they were limited to only importing light arms for their police forces.  Eventually trade could be restarted with Israel and hopefully relations and travel restrictions normalized.

But before that happens, the biggest thing to overcome is to get both sides to realize that antagonizing the other side is not going to get them anywhere.  

Oh by the way, Abu Mazen also did have PLA policemen try to enter Hamas controlled areas to arrest gunmen firing rockets into Israel but they get driven out by a mob and by hamas gunmen who opened fire on them.

As for bringing them into the government, thats better then excluding them I think.  Excluding them only gives them a military option with no political voice.

This is the success of the British in Northern Ireland.  They finally began to deal directly with terrorists and eventually pushing to bring them into political fold so that now IRA militant support is waning.

People do not like war aside from those who benefit from it.

Generally, average folks of any country hate war.  It plain sucks.  

The Lebanese know this which is why they're not eager to start fighting each other again.  As long as Hezbollah doesn't start forcing their brand of religion upon others, I think that country has a chance of becoming a very stable and healthy democracy and once again a dynamic cultural and business center in the Arab world.  

At any rate, if the UN ever was invited to send in peacekeepers, it would have to be done extremely carefully with possible IDF-UN security conflicts worked out in advance.

Also the UN would have to be aggressive about arresting militants.  But they've had some good successes in Bosnia and Kosovo.  Granted things aren't all roses their between Serbs, Bosnians, and Albanians, but at least things are much more stable and they are gradually making progress.

So peace is possible, but sometimes bold moves toward peace have to be made.

Oh yeah, I also agree that Sheikh Muhammed Ibrahim Maadi needs to be taken off the TV. But he's one of the ones that Israel needs to deal with directly. Just think what would happen if he had a change of heart and began to preach dialog with Jews. Probably not realistic, but you never know how people's hearts can change if they talk to the right people.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Badgerboy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, I'm not comparing them to the Nazi but AKM called them the Nazis of the Middle East.  :/

Well I only saw you. So please let it rest and not do it again.

Quote[/b] ]Did some crappy editing to make it rated G....

Oh for God sake you just dont know when to to stop, do you?

I think your the one who needs to stop.

Back to the cause of this spat. If English is not your first language, then its possible you misunderstood. If it is your first language, I suggest you focus on your context and grammer skills.

For 3 bloody pages you have banged on about this! Notice how no-one else has even commented? Its because you are making yourself look foolish! Billybob even explained himself.... 5 times!

Leave BillyBob alone. If anything your causing me offense with your spamming of 'wtf, he said Nazi' posts.

Thank you.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, I'm not comparing them to the Nazi but AKM called them the Nazis of the Middle East. :/

Well I only saw you. So please let it rest and not do it again.

Quote[/b] ]Did some crappy editing to make it rated G....

Oh for God sake you just dont know when to to stop, do you?

I think your the one who needs to stop.

Back to the cause of this spat. If English is not your first language, then its possible you misunderstood. If it is your first language, I suggest you focus on your context and grammer skills.

For 3 bloody pages you have banged on about this! Notice how no-one else has even commented? Its because you are making yourself look foolish! Billybob even explained himself.... 5 times!

Leave BillyBob alone. If anything your causing me offense with your spamming of 'wtf, he said Nazi' posts.

Thank you.

Riiiiight I'm offending you because you think I'm spamming. Thats a big laugh. He didnt explain himself 5 times he tried to justify his comments so butt out dude.

[Nemesis6 0]

I don't understand why you're argueing about BillyBob. AKM was the one who spouted anti-semitic libel.

Anyway, about Israel keeping the conflict going by "humiliating" them... what are you refering to? If you mean the checkpoints: There's a reason they're there. And there's a reason they're thorough. Remember this? That's what happens when they try to cut people some slack.

[SFWanabe 0]

They both did now lets drop it,its giving me a fucking headache.

[red oct 2]

another train bombing in Russia

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/12/russia.train/index.html

[SFWanabe 0]

Yea I heard about that. I'm sure it was Chechen terrorists.

[miles teg 1]

I don't understand why you're argueing about BillyBob. AKM was the one who spouted anti-semitic libel.

Anyway, about Israel keeping the conflict going by "humiliating" them... what are you refering to? If you mean the checkpoints: There's a reason they're there. And there's a reason they're thorough. Remember this? That's what happens when they try to cut people some slack.

I NEVER said that the checkpoint security measures WERE NOT NECESSARY.   I MOST DEFINITELY think that they ARE necessary. However nonetheless, they are EXTEREMELY humiliating to Palistinians who have nothing to do with these terrorists.  All of this has a PROFOUND effect on the Palistinian population.  Even foreign vistors to the Palistinian territories generally come back with genuine sympathy for the Palistinians.  

Again... cause and effect relationships.  Certainly many Palistinian actions are the cause for these checkpoints and on their side, that needs to be explained to them very very clearly.  But the Israelies need to quit blaming everything on the Palistinians and acknowledge that they are part of the circle of violence.   They need to have a very very honest and self reflexive dialog with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and vice-versa, those Palistinian terrorist groups need to do the exact same thing and truly look at what they are doing in relation to not only simply sociological/psychological  cause and effect relationships, but also they need to look at their own religion and if they are truly fighting as martyrs or as hypocrits because all of the Sunah clearly shows that killing civilians was not the way of their prophet or of the first Jihads.  Their are clear rules to warfare that they are required to follow otherwise they are guilty of being hypocrits and in jeapordy of eternal damnation in hellfire.  

If they can be shown that and made to believe that, I strongly believe they can be made to honestly and profoundly change their belief systems, especially if Israel is willng to do the same.  For example dialog between Hamas militants and Israeli soldiers can be part of this dialog and healing process.

It simply requires professional moderators and conflict specialists who also specialize in the Israel/Palistinian conflict.

It can be done but it requires a large amount of manpower and money to be focused on propaganda.

This is what I'm currently trying to emphasize with the US Department of Defense and State Department regarding Iraq, but its just falling on deaf ears even though I've sent out well written anti-terrorism proposals to half a dozen departments and many senators and congressmen and committees.  

To me the solutions are very difficult, but also extremely straightforward because they are founded on the very best of all religions.  They are founded on pure basic concepts of honor, mercy, forgiveness, and love...and simply doing the right thing.   These are the core concepts of all religions and are things that even atheists can agree upon.

Know that all Muslims are not like these idiot Palistinian militants or Al-Qaeda militants.  But they exhist nonetheless and currently heavily influence moderates.  Here's a wonderful comic strip done by one of the large Sufi Islamic organizations in the US commenting on typical Wahabi/Salafi (Islamic fundamentalists) attitudes and behaviors.:

http://www.sunnah.org/cartoon/imam/pag1.htm

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

Alright, let's say Israel goes through the process of removing all things that could possibly humiliate or alienate the Palestinians. A few months pass, and coherently, the deathtoll rises. What then? Keep talking and let the blood flow in the streets? Also: Just remember what the purpose of Hamas is to destroy Israel and create an Islamic state. Also, Israelis aren't the only ones they like to shoot. When they're not taking it out on Christians, jews, or anyone they don't like, they kill civilians, kill women in the name of Islam for walking hand in hand with their husbands, etc, etc. There's more to these terror organizations than just killing Dhimmis. They have other things to tend to. They're not just a "political entity" with a "military wing" as they would have you believe.

By the way, a lot of the people who visit Israel or Gaza or the West Bank/whatever... They don't leave with sympathy. They quite often arrive with it.

[miles teg 1]

Again, please listen. I'm not saying that you have to suddenly remove all the things that cause humiliation to Palistinians. BUT...many things can be modified or experimented with such as having PLA police doing the frisking and searching under the observation of IDF forces to make sure they're doing it properly. They can also be trained and equipped with electronic explosive sniffers to perhaps avoid all the frisking. But Israel doesn't want to shell out the money for alot of the technology that could be used. That is where the US could help ALOT.

There are also many other things that can reduce tension. One huge one is just to HALT SETTLEMENT EXPANSION into their territory. Israel recently revealed plans for a big settlement expansion into Palistinian territories which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as it is GUARANTEED to cause the conflict to continue.

Stuff like that just sends mixed messages.

At the same time, all of that would need to hand in hand with the programs of reconciliation that I mentioned before. Things like allowing more trade into the territories, ect...

So please don't focus on one thing I'm saying and ignore the rest. I talk about alot of different ideas precisely because some may not work. Just because one idea doesn't work doesn't mean you don't throw the whole idea of peace out. A peace plan has to be highly flexible. There also is still the option of a third party like the UN manning security checkpoints and assisting the PLA in doing peacekeeping and arrests of militants launching rockets for example.

What this does is that it takes away Israel as the sole enemy that Hamas leaders say they are fighting because suddenly the world body is against them for committing terrorism. The world is generally against Palistinian terrorism, which is why most people in the world (aside from most Muslims) are not generally sympathetic to the Palistinians. But also Israeli tactics prevents the world from being very sympathetic towards Israel as well. To most of the world the conflict between Israelies and Palistinians is just one big headache that is used as an rallying flag for Islamic extremist terrorist groups all over the world. Its a nasty powderkeg that could also potentially ignite the region in a horrific war. That is why myself at least, I'm interested in working to help end the conflict there and bring about some type of reasonable stability and security there.

Also Hamas goes around killing Christians? I haven't heard of that happening. Although I am aware that they are a highly fundamentalist Islamic organization that engages in criminal activities. But I've talked to Christian aid workers representing the Catholic church who have had no problems working in Hamas controlled areas.

But yes you are right that such people do go to the territories with a certain amount of sympathy or else they wouldn't be there. But they weren't exactly anti-Israeli. Sadly however the attitude is that any group that assists the Palistinians in any way is automatically a group that supports terrorists.

All I can say, is that these aid workers that went there came back much more deeply sympathethetic to the Palistinians then when they left.

If I had the money, I'd go there myself in a heartbeat to get some good firsthand experience but I wouldn't want to just live amongst Palistinians but also I would like to live with settlers on the front lines and hang out with IDF border guards if they let me (which they probably wouldn't unless I was doing a study for the Israeli government).

At any rate, if I don't get employment soon here with the US government I might do some more research and submit a proposal to various Israeli government agencies to see if they're interested in hiring me to do conflict research because from right here far away, I can only talk about things I see or read in the news which is good, but does not replace actually being there.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[harley 3 1185 0]

The whole Palestinian question does not affect me, and never could affect me, due to the fact I am not Jewish or a Muslim , do not live anywhere near the Occupied Territories and have NO INTENTION of ever visiting Israel for reasons to be discussed later.

To those who would love to adopt a very hard line against Palestinian terrorists; just remember that the government of Israel put many Palestinians in such a position where they see themselves as having no other choice but to commit an act of terrorism.

However, I can not and never will sanction any act of terrorism; and in my opinion anyone caught (however unlikely) in the act of committing a terrorist act really should be shot, as a threat to public safety and to themselves.

Enough on that anyway; there are people far more qualified to discuss the issues surrounding the terrorist campaign in Israel today.

However, seeing as Israel was a nation born in violence, and has survived through violence-I can't say I have too much sympathy for it.  Organisations such as Hamas took their cue from the barbaric insanity of such Jewish organisations as the Stern Gang, the Hagannah and the Irgun back in the 1930s and 1940s, commiting all kinds of atrocities against both Arabs and the British seeking to keep the peace.  Actions such as kidnapping, torturing and hanging British troops were commonplace in the period before the British mandate expired-even booby-trapping bodies hanging from trees; and for what?  A freedom that the Jewish populace knew was bound to come to them after the horrors of World War Two?

The bombing of the King David's Hotel was another pointless act of viciousness; one of the bombers, Menachim Begin, became Prime Minister.  Prime Minister for God's sake!  91 people died in that bombing, yet he felt that he could become the leader of his country without it bothering his conscience.

And during all this time, whilst commiting many acts of terrorism themselves, mainly against the Jews and not the British, the Arabs were mainly watching and learning...

I don't know if Tel Aviv has ever apologised for the despicable, foul and revolting behaviour of some of its people during those years, but I believe one is forthcoming. Until one is made, I don't think I shall ever travel to the Holy Land (and I would like to go, for many reasons) in memory of those British troops who died for no good reason.

Okay, enough of that-sorry...

Someone before mentioned about the British in Northern Ireland, and how progress was made by allowing terrorist groups into a forum.  I ask you, where in Northern Ireland was their an issue which required the murder of 3000 people over the years?  What was there which was so important??  What was/is the IRA fighting for?  NOTHING.  Only to murder and rob, pure-senseless-greed.  Gerry Adams should have been shot as soon as the troubles began, and his beloved henchman, McGuinness.  The IRA and any other organisation in NI exist only to create trouble for no good reason at all-the IRA cannot be compared to any Palestinian terrorist groups-it's a totally different context.

[Nemesis6 0]

Note that I'm not ignoring your points. I identify the most valid or discussable ones and offer my perspective on the issue. But still, you quite answer my question - What if the liberals get the fence torn down and terrorists start flowing in, dialog is useless, and people get killed almost every day, and the U.N. "peacekeepers" are absolutely useless. The responsibility of the IDF isn't to appease or to please as we Europeans so like to do. Its responsibility is to defend Israeli citizens against terrorists. Humiliating or not, inconvinient or not, from frisking to ambulance checking, there is a reason. Abulances are used as transports for Qassam rockets, weapons, and body partys of dead soldiers in some cases, jackets too are used to conceal weapons. Once again: Let's say we remove the security fence, and we let the PA take care of the checkpoints under the supervision of a third party. People get killed and there are no dialogs whatsoever. Then what? What if that tactic proves ineffective?

[Necromancer- 0]

People get killed and there are no dialogs whatsoever. Then what? What if that tactic proves ineffective?

Unlikely..

In time, it will result that Hamas and other terrorist organisations will get less support from the Palestinians themselves, thus making it harder for Hamas and other terrorist organisations to recruit suicide bombers. It is also more likely that the UN will give a mandate for Israël to military operate together with Palestinian forces on Palestinian soil.

In time it will also have a better effect on the "collective" mentality of muslims all around the world.

As said before.. Israël should stop building Jewish settlements on Palestinian soil.

Although I have read in some news papers that the Jewish habitants of those settlements don't want to be removed and wish to live under Palestinian authority.

[Nemesis6 0]

Although I have read in some news papers that the Jewish habitants of those settlements don't want to be removed and wish to live under Palestinian authority.

Someone's been reading Al-Jazeera! ;-)

Seriously, though, anyone willing to live under PA control, especially Dhimmis, have some serious learning to do.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm

Good article. Gotta pull myself together to read it all, but it shows accurately the conditions of Dhimmis under PA rule.

[miles teg 1]

Its an interesting article but I think it goes out of its way to pick out the very worst events against Christians done by Muslims and exaggerates a great deal.  I lived in Saudi Arabia and while yes, churches are generally not allowed, ex-pat communities are allowed to have churches within their compounds as long as they do not evangalize to Muslims or distribute Bibles to Muslims.  Most Americans going there had bibles with them when they came there and they didn't have their bibles siezed.  My family had a whole bunch of religious books including bibles and none of them were seized even though they went thru all our stuff.

Now they did almost confiscate my E.T. halloween costume at the airport once coming back from Florida to Riyadh, but I started crying and the customs policeman felt really bad and gave it back to me.  LOL!

If things are so bad for Christians in Palestine I wonder why I don't read about it in Orthodox Christian websites.  

Also if I remember correctly when gunmen took over the church of the nativity (I think that's what its called), if I remember correctly the monks decided to stay inside with them and gave them sanctuary.   At any rate, I'd be more inclined to believe reports not written by an Israeli or Christian fundamentalist writer.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Times  :

Quote[/b] ]

The Washington Times is a daily newspaper published in Washington, D.C.. It was founded in 1982 as a conservative alternative to the Washington Post by members of the controversial Unification Church. It has lost well over $1 billion since its inception.

Paul Weyrich, a co-founder of the Moral Majority conservative Christian political action committee, praises the Washington Times as an "antidote" to its "liberal competitor," The Washington Post: "The Washington Post became very arrogant and they just decided that they would determine what was news and what wasn't news and they wouldn't cover a lot of things that went on. And the Washington Times has forced the Post to cover a lot of things that they wouldn't cover if the Times wasn't in existence." [1] (http://www.mediachannel.org/originals/moontranscript.shtml)

Reporter Bill Gertz is famed for producing a number of scoops based on sources in the American intelligence community, many of which have turned out to be false. Former editor and early Sun Myung Moon follower Josette Shiner was appointed U.S. Deputy Trade Representative in 2003.

The Washington Times Corporation also publishes the New York Noticias Del Mundo, and the monthly World&I. The weekly Insight newsmagazine, now defunct, provided additional funding to Paula Jones' sexual harassment lawsuit against President Bill Clinton, allowing the suit to continue after her own funding ran out. The Washington Times Foundation has also sponsored workshops on morality, such as a recent "God and Peace" forum attended by Moon, Sen. Richard G. Lugar, and White House officials, as well as donating money to the George H. W. Bush presidential library.

The Times has a circulation of approximately 100,000 a day, versus about 700,000 for the Washington Post. It should not be confused with the Washington Times established in 1893, which became the Washington Times-Herald and was merged with the Washington Post in 1954.

Also many of the quotes taken from other reputable newspapers are taken out of context for maximum negative effect.  The rest are articles from highly conservative publications like the Jerusalem Post and the Washington Times

Finally I met a Christian Palestinian here where I live and they never once mentioned being mistreated there and instead was very angry at Israel when the topic of the Palistinian/Israeli conflict came up.  

So I think this article is nothing more then a propaganda piece to try and get more support from fundamentalist christians.

If I wanted to, I could put together a similar paper on the presecution of Muslims in Christian countries.  Bosnia?  Kosovo? Hate crimes against Muslims in America?  

Hate crimes against Muslims in Germany?  ect.. ect..  

I could write a very ugly paper exaggerating things and painting a picture of a very anti-Muslim Christian world.  

But maybe I'm wrong about Palestinian tolerance of Christians as again I've never been there and only have 2nd hand accounts.  But I take that article with a heavy grain of salt given its source.  Nevertheless it is not surprising that Christians sometimes become targets of hate crimes due to the perception that America (Israel's chief ally) is a Christian nation that uses Arab Christians to spy on Muslims.

I tend to approach these things not from a self-righteous "WE GOT PUNISH THOSE SICK BASTARDS" attitude of vengeance, but rather I want to know "WHY DO THEY BELIEVE, FEEL, AND DO THESE TERRIBLE THINGS???"  If you understand how they think and the reasons why some Palistinians behave a certain way, you can then better understand how to best change those behaviors.

Some people may say, "Oh you're just criminal coddling. You're a terrorist sympathizer". However there is a HUGE difference between an individual who commits a socially abnormal crime compared to groups of thousands of people who support or work to commit horrific crimes. When you have entire communities who all actively support terrorist activities, then you have a cultural dysfunction that most definitely can be pinpointed, analyzed, and modified through a wide variety of measures.

Israel will always have the right to defend itself and again I never mentioned tearing down any fences. I actually support the security fences as long as they are well placed. They are a good temporary measure to keep Israelies and Palistinians from killing each other.

What my main point is, is that there are better proactive solutions then just using violence and economic oppression lone to "punish" the Palistinians. While it gives some Israelies a sense of satisfaction to retaliate, it also just fuels terrorism that much more. Also I should say that there have been some good things Israel has done for the Palistinians. However the good programs done for Palistinians generally are forgotten by the Palistinian people due to the massive weight of anti-Israeli propaganda and due to the daily humilation, death, and economic hardships they face.

Israeli settlers also face alot of pressure from both fellow Israelies, from Palistinians, and from the international community. That and constant sniping and rocket attacks against them understandably make them also living in a type of oppressed state and likewise fuels a form of militancy and hatred. I'm sure that if Palestinians injured or killed any of my family members or people close to me, I may also have tremendous feelings of hatred and vengeance.

Its a normal part of human behavior... but fortunately not impossible to overcome.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Akira 0]

Nothing new or unexpected...

Quote[/b] ]UN investigators say U.S. stalling on prison visits

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Jun 23, 6:46 AM (ET)

GENEVA (Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators on Thursday accused the United States of stalling on their request to visit foreign terror suspects at U.S.-run prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay.

They said they had had no reply to their year-old request to probe "serious allegations of torture," arbitrary detention and violations of the right to health and due process at Guantanamo.

"We deeply regret that the government of the United States has still not invited us to visit those persons arrested, detained or tried on grounds of alleged terrorism or other violations in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Guantanamo Bay naval base," the four rights investigators said in a statement.

"The lack of a definitive answer despite repeated requests suggests that the United States is not willing to cooperate with the United Nations human rights machinery on this issue," they added.

Their request to visit followed the scandal sparked by photographs taken in the U.S.-run prison of Abu Ghraib in Iraq, showing inmates, some in hoods, being sexually humiliated by soldiers and intimidated with dogs.

The investigators have global U.N. mandates to probe allegations of torture and arbitrary detention as well as ensuring that rights to health and judicial independence are upheld.

Activists have expressed alarm that many people arrested since the Sept 11, 2001 attacks on the United States have been held for more than three years without charges being laid, often incommunicado, in a legal blackhole facilitating mistreatment.

The Pentagon says it is holding 520 men in Guantanamo, mainly detained in Afghanistan. Only four have been charged.

Link

Land of the free, home of the brave, innocent till proven guilty, blah blah blah...

[SFWanabe 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

[EiZei 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

The united states bill of rights say that the rights given apply to all people. Either you are not the same species or somebody is violating the constitution here..

Quote[/b] ]

.. nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ..

[Akira 0]

Dont our freedoms belong to us (Americans)?

I thought they were "unalienable human rights"? In any case, due process of law stipulates access to lawyers, no lenthy jail terms without hearing, etc. etc.

So what seperates us from Saddam if we can hold our "enemies" for no reason, as long as we want, and do what we want with them?