War against terror

[baff 0]

It's illegal because they are signitories of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Can't really avoid that one.

@johnWayne

Quote[/b] ]Did Britain show restraint in much of the Thatcher era

 I don't remember any tank charges through Belfast.

Or helicopter gunships firing Tow rockets at suspects cars. Or children gunned down outside their homes by soldiers.

When they lorry bombed Londons tallest building, there was no carpet bombing of Ireland and America for supporting terrorists. The troops weren't sent in to make the people of Ireland and the U.S.A. pay for supporting terrorism.

The Birmingham Six were set free and compensated with millions of pounds for false imprisonment, not electrocuted, stripped naked and forced to bugger eachother until they confessed enough to be excuted.

A big wall wasn't built around Belfast and it's citizens houses systematically destroyed.

Palestine isn't getting a free pass on the violence.

Anything but.

The state of Palestine is getting tank blitzs and military retaliation for the actions of terrorists.

The Israeli's really don't need any extra support to deal with the Palestinian violence at all.  

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]  

There have been recorded cases where a single shot, fired into the air, has sparked a ONE HOUR LONG retaliatory fire from all Israeli assets in region, including shots from Merkava main-guns! This round was fired into the air to demonstrate the stark reality to a Western observer

There have been recorded cases that Hamas has fired rockets from Lebanon.

funny.

Unlike shooting stone throwing children with tanks or just driving over people in bulldozers. which is less funny.

Here is a set of before and after pictures of an American girl in Rafah.

IMAGE REMOVED: Warin

pretty funny stuff ay?

IMAGE REMOVED: Warin

First he ran her down, then he reversed back over.

@ AKM No government can survive without the broad support of it's people. We demonise the leaders, but only a populous movement gives them actual power.

You can blame only the Nazi's if you like but under the Tsarists 30 years earlier the Germans were just the same. Without the broad support of the German people neither war would have begun. They liked war, as a nation they were good at it.

Similarly you could blame George Bush and the "neo cons"* only for the war in Iraq but he was re-elected, the American people as a whole are into it.

The population didn't exactly riot and overthrow him.

Outraged gun enthusiasts have not attempted to assasinate him.

It was the same for Adolph. They loved him.

If they had won, they still would.

(*)please excuse the cliched yankee flamebait. I know he's an easy target.

(Thats not to say that about half the population of any country is not usually against it's own government.

If Osama bin Laden or Gerry Adams managed to kill Tony Blair, a lot of English people would throw a party.

Half the population of Britain were pro Nazi and totally anti a war with Germany in 1939).

[Warin 0]

Baff, you get a 48 hour PR for posting those images, as per:

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage,  and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

Please review the rules before continuing to post.  Thank you.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Actually, Iraq developed the chemical agents (which are WMDs) and the US companies gave dual-use technology. Also, them modern Nazis prevented Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons.

If Iraq had WMDs how come we havent found them? We found mass graves,and other damning stuff. Also you should really think before you speak.

Quote[/b] ]It's illegal because they are signitories of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Can't really avoid that one.

I beileve we signed that too but do you see the US disarming? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's illegal because they are signitories of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Can't really avoid that one.

Point of order! Point of order!

Isreal is not a signitory of the NNPT, therefore they are not restricted by it legal bounds, and therefore are not "illegally" possessing these weapons.

Our friend, Wikipedia:

Quote[/b] ]Three states - India, Pakistan, and Israel - have declined to sign the treaty. India and Pakistan are confirmed nuclear powers, and Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons, although it has never conducted tests (see List of countries with nuclear weapons). These countries argue that the NPT creates a club of "nuclear haves" and a larger group of "nuclear have-nots" by restricting the legal possession of nuclear weapons to those states that tested them before 1967, but the treaty never explains on what ethical grounds such a distinction is valid.

Not making a judgement call, just stating a fact.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons

Just because the rest of the world thinks they have them doesnt mean they do.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons

I'm widely beileved to have crabs but does that me I do no. Samething gos for Israel.

Then his statement is doubly false....

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons

I'm widely beileved to have crabs but does that me I do no. Samething gos for Israel.

Then his statement is doubly false....

Riiiiight

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Here is a set of before and after pictures of an American girl in Rafah.

So, I should shed a tear because somebody thought they can stop a bulldozer whose driver has limited vision. Some accounts said she was kneeling.

You know that was taken hours before her death.

Quote[/b] ]If Iraq had WMDs how come we havent found them? We found mass graves,and other damning stuff. Also you should really think before you speak.

Hey genius, we were talking about the 1980s.

Quote[/b] ]Please review the rules before continuing to post. Thank you.

I thought people got ban for posting those pictures.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hey genius, we were talking about the 1980s.

That was years ago there is no proof they still have them. You really need to back out of here while you still look like you can debate.

Quote[/b] ]I thought people got ban for posting those pictures.

I thought people got banned for flamand making racist comments

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]That was years ago there is no proof they still have them. You really need to back out of here while you still look like you can debate.

Hey genius, the original post...

Quote[/b] ]

And these agents were given to the Iraqis by the Americans.

my reply

Quote[/b] ]

Actually, Iraq developed the chemical agents (which are WMDs) and the US companies gave dual-use technology.

I'm not talking about the current situation. :/ Let me explain it more, the US companies gave dual-use "technology" in which the Iraqi developed the chemical, bio, and etc from that.

Quote[/b] ]

I thought people got banned for flamand making racist comments

What racist comments? Oh, the hey genius comment(s) are in reference to this

Your post:

Quote[/b] ]

If Iraq had WMDs how come we havent found them? We found mass graves,and other damning stuff. Also you should really think before you speak.

 

[miles teg 1]

Billybob, even if that first pic was taken hours before her death, no doubt the pic of her body was NOT taken hours before her death.  She most definitely is DEAD.  As for limited view, the D9 drivers DO have a view directly in front of their dozer blade.  That's why the driver's compartment is fairly high up.  While I haven't driven a armored D9, I have driven dozers in my old Army unit, and you can't very well work if you can't see whats up in front of you.  The Dozer driver was aware that protesters were around his dozer.  You said yourself the pic was taken hours before.  It took hours to decide to run her over?

In addition, D9 operations almost always have infantry support to protect the D9's from RPG fire.  Usually if you look at pictures of IDF demolition operations, there are infantry supporting them unless the area is too dangerous for them to leave their APC's.  

At a minimum this death was gross negligence on the part of the IDF.   Makes me wonder how many Palistinians died this way.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob, even if that first pic was taken hours before her death, no doubt the pic of her body was NOT taken hours before her death.  She most definitely is DEAD.  

That pic was pimped around the internet and world has saying that was her right before her death. People who were there said she was kneeling, lying down, sitting, and standing up.

Quote[/b] ]In addition, D9 operations almost always have infantry support to protect the D9's from RPG fire.  Usually if you look at pictures of IDF demolition operations, there are infantry supporting them unless the area is too dangerous for them to leave their APC's.  

Yep, infantry were inside their APC's during the accident or not near the dozer.

Quote[/b] ]As for limited view, the D9 drivers DO have a view directly in front of their dozer blade.  That's why the driver's compartment is fairly high up.  While I haven't driven a armored D9, I have driven dozers in my old Army unit, and you can't very well work if you can't see whats up in front of you.  The Dozer driver was aware that protesters were around his dozer.  You said yourself the pic was taken hours before.  It took hours to decide to run her over?

Quote[/b] ]The IDF produced a video about Corrie's death that includes footage taken from inside the cockpit of a D9. It makes a "credible case," writes Hammer, who has not seen the video, that "the operators, peering out through narrow, double-glazed, bulletproof windows, their view obscured behind pistons and the giant scooper, might not have seen Corrie kneeling in front of them," (Mother Jones (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1329/is_5_28/ai_107897303/pg_1)). ISM disputes the contents of the Mother Jones article.[7]

[Warin 0]

Even if she was kneeling, these guys are responsible for her death. When using a heavy piece of machinery, "I didnt see her" is an unacceptable excuse. And since they knew the protestors were there, it is doubly a poor excuse! I dont think it was intentional, but it certainly was negligent manslaughter at the very least.

[Balschoiw 0]

U.S. Army denies cover-up in Tillman's 2004 death

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Rejecting criticism by Army Ranger Pat Tillman's parents, the U.S. Army on Thursday denied covering up facts in the former professional football player's 2004 friendly fire death in

Afghanistan, but admitted to "procedural misjudgments and mistakes."

His father, Pat Tillman Sr., have assailed as "shams" and a cover-up the Army's investigations into his son's death on April 22, 2004. His mother, Mary Tillman, said it was "disgusting" the Army lied about it. They expressed their views in comments and a letter to The Washington Post last month.

"The Army did not 'cover up' any facts," according to a statement released by the Army's public affairs office, arguing that Tillman died "in a very confusing battle."

"While procedural misjudgments and mistakes contributed to an air of suspicion, no one intended to deceive the Tillman family or the public as to the cause of his death," the Army added.

The Army determined almost immediately after Tillman's death that he had been killed inadvertently by fellow Rangers in a wild spree of gunfire in a remote canyon near the Pakistani border, according to the latest Army investigation, described by officials last month. It found that the Army kept the fact secret from his family and the public for weeks and even destroyed evidence, the officials said.

Tillman played for four years in the National Football League but walked away from a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to sign up as an elite Army Ranger in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on America.

Tillman's brother also served as a Ranger.

Until for the first time linking his death to friendly fire on May 29, 2004, the Saturday of the U.S. Memorial Day holiday weekend, the Army's public account of Tillman's death had been that he had been slain by enemy fire during an ambush.

"It is true that neither the family nor the public were notified immediately of the suspicion of friendly fire and the follow-on investigation," the Army added.

"This was due to the fact the operationally deployed unit did not immediately notify the Department of the Army out of a desire to complete the investigation and gather all available facts, so as not to provide an inaccurate or incomplete picture of what happened," the Army said.

This decision "was an application of judgment, not a willful violation of regulation," the Army said.

"Nevertheless, it was procedurally wrong. However, the Department of the Army stands by the investigating officer and his report," the statement said.

This referred to the findings announced on May 29, 2004. The Army's public statement on that day said Tillman "died as a probable result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces."

Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman at the

Pentagon, said Thursday's statement was intended to address the comments made by Tillman's parents to The Washington Post. "And we believe that there will be other stories in the near future," Boyce said.

The Army said there have been three investigations into Tillman's death, the first two by Tillman's Ranger Regiment in Afghanistan and the third, launched late last year, by Brig. Gen. Gary Jones of the Army Special Operations Command.

Boyce said the Army was preparing to make public the voluminous Jones report, but its release was "weeks away." But the Post obtained it, and Army officials previously discussed the findings.

The report, for example, found that the day after his death, U.S. personnel burned Tillman's bloody body armor and uniform, which Jones called destruction of evidence.

So he died of FF. How can it be that the investigations take so long ? And I still don´t get it why they burned all of his personal armor and uniform.

While other news from Afghansitan are good:

Italian Hostage Released in Afghanistan

Quote[/b] ]ROME - An Italian woman held hostage in

Afghanistan for more than three weeks said her abductors treated her well, an Italian newspaper said Friday.

Clementina Cantoni, 32, was released Thursday in Kabul, the Afghan capital. She was expected back in Italy later Friday.

"They treated me well," the Rome daily La Repubblica quoted her as saying. She told the paper that she was "watched by a group of women."

Cantoni was abducted by armed men on May 16 in the heart of Kabul. She was working for CARE International on a project helping Afghan widows and their families.

After her release, Cantoni was taken to the Italian Embassy, where she asked for a bowl of spaghetti, according to La Repubblica and another Italian daily, Corriere della Sera.

Back home, Italy reacted with joy and relief at the news of Cantoni's release.

The woman's parents in Milan broke out in tears and hugged each other, a family friend said. The country's top officials expressed their joy.

"Clementina (is) free, the end of a nightmare," was the banner headline of Turin-daily La Stampa.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]What racist comments? Oh, the hey genius comment(s) are in reference to this

Calling the Israelis Nazis is racist.....

[chops 111]

Quote[/b] ]What racist comments? Oh, the hey genius comment(s) are in reference to this

Calling the Israelis Nazis is racist.....

It's definitely unsavoury, but are the Israelis all a single "race"? I've always wondered how the right wing settlers can claim they're "returning to the Homeland" when they're all European white and everyone else in that part of the world is Arabic brown.

[SFWanabe 0]

Okay then I was wrong about it being racist,but its clearly offensive to jews and israelis that are on theses forums and billybob should be banned for saying that.

[miles teg 1]

Nah... calling anyone nazis isn't racist. It just means that a person has run out of arguements so they resort to the ol' Nazi or Hitler comparison. Some of the Jewish members of the forum could do a better job then I can of talking about why you have Jews of many different ethnicities and appearances (the tribes of Israel, the diaspora, etc...). Hell, there are even black Jews.

No Asian Jews to my knowledge but I wouldn't be surprised if some popped up in some remote part of China. lol

The settlers are just highly ethnocentric Jews who believe 100% in the Zionist cause. But the Israeli government and the people of Israel are very much divided on what exactly Zionism means and where exactly the borders are.

But anyways, no I don't think BillyBob should be punished for calling people Nazis. Lots of people call Bush a Nazi all the time here. lol

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob, even if that first pic was taken hours before her death, no doubt the pic of her body was NOT taken hours before her death.  She most definitely is DEAD.  

That pic was pimped around the internet and world has saying that was her right before her death. People who were there said she was kneeling, lying down, sitting, and standing up.

Quote[/b] ]In addition, D9 operations almost always have infantry support to protect the D9's from RPG fire.  Usually if you look at pictures of IDF demolition operations, there are infantry supporting them unless the area is too dangerous for them to leave their APC's.  

Yep, infantry were inside their APC's during the accident or not near the dozer.

Quote[/b] ]As for limited view, the D9 drivers DO have a view directly in front of their dozer blade.  That's why the driver's compartment is fairly high up.  While I haven't driven a armored D9, I have driven dozers in my old Army unit, and you can't very well work if you can't see whats up in front of you.  The Dozer driver was aware that protesters were around his dozer.  You said yourself the pic was taken hours before.  It took hours to decide to run her over?

Quote[/b] ]The IDF produced a video about Corrie's death that includes footage taken from inside the cockpit of a D9. It makes a "credible case," writes Hammer, who has not seen the video, that "the operators, peering out through narrow, double-glazed, bulletproof windows, their view obscured behind pistons and the giant scooper, might not have seen Corrie kneeling in front of them," (Mother Jones (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1329/is_5_28/ai_107897303/pg_1)). ISM disputes the contents of the Mother Jones article.[7]

Billy Bob you still ignore the fact that SHE IS DEAD unless you think its some big consipracy, but her grieving relatives on the news then must have been really good actors.

You also still fail to acknowledge that if she was there for hours playing chicken with the bulldozer, that in fact the IDF and the driver knew the protesters were there in front of the driver. At the very least, it was criminal negligence that IDF troops did not clear the protesters out of the way before continuing with the demolition of that house.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

...At the very least, it was criminal negligence that IDF troops did not clear the protesters out of the way before continuing with the demolition of that house.

They did. Several times. http://www.alisrael.com/rachel_corrie/

On the whole matter of Rachel Corrie: It was hers and the PA's fault. Not Israel's. She should have known better than to:

* Repeatedly throw herself infront of a bulldozer and coming back after being removed.

* Join an organization that utilizes its members as human shields for terrorists and has numerous connections to terrorism.

[SFWanabe 0]

Nah... calling anyone nazis isn't racist. It just means that a person has run out of arguements so they resort to the ol' Nazi or Hitler comparison. Some of the Jewish members of the forum could do a better job then I can of talking about why you have Jews of many different ethnicities and appearances (the tribes of Israel, the diaspora, etc...). Hell, there are even black Jews.

No Asian Jews to my knowledge but I wouldn't be surprised if some popped up in some remote part of China. lol

The settlers are just highly ethnocentric Jews who believe 100% in the Zionist cause. But the Israeli government and the people of Israel are very much divided on what exactly Zionism means and where exactly the borders are.

But anyways, no I don't think BillyBob should be punished for calling people Nazis. Lots of people call Bush a Nazi all the time here. lol

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Yea well the mods need to PR him or better yet ban him.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Okay then I was wrong about it being racist,but its clearly offensive to jews and israelis that are on theses forums and billybob should be banned for saying that.

Read AKM's whole post:

Quote[/b] ]I think it's easy to say that the modern-day Israelites are essentially the Nazis of the Middle East.

My reply:

Quote[/b] ]

Also, them modern Nazis prevented Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons.

:/

Quote[/b] ]Billy Bob you still ignore the fact that SHE IS DEAD unless you think its some big consipracy, but her grieving relatives on the news then must have been really good actors.

You also still fail to acknowledge that if she was there for hours playing chicken with the bulldozer, that in fact the IDF and the driver knew the protesters were there in front of the driver.  At the very least, it was criminal negligence that IDF troops did not clear the protesters out of the way before continuing with the demolition of that house.

Did I say she was not dead? It's was a different bulldozer and area were she was killed.

Anyway, where are the other mods (Placebo)?

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]They did. Several times. http://www.alisrael.com/rachel_corrie/

On the whole matter of Rachel Corrie: It was hers and the PA's fault. Not Israel's. She should have known better than to:

* Repeatedly throw herself infront of a bulldozer and coming back after being removed.

* Join an organization that utilizes its members as human shields for terrorists and has numerous connections to terrorism.

Where does it say they removed the protesters?  I didn't see that.  Even if it did, that presentation thing is thick with counter-propaganda and is not what I would take as a legitimate source.  The IDF has a LONG history of covering up attrocities.  There are tons of documented cases of blatant murders and shootings of civilians by United Nations observers and members of the international press including reputable American news agencies.  

But also I understand that it is a war there and its an urban war so understandably if you're fighting in the middle of a populated area, you are going to get civilian casualties.

Sadly in this case, if the IDF does claim that it removed the protesters several times from this location, it is their word against the ISM/Palistinians.   Furthermore in the Mother Jones article BillyBob quoted, the IDF made a statement that they used tear gas to try and disperse the protesters but to no effect.  They mentioned nothing about having several times removed the protesters from in front of the bulldozer.

Read that article.  I think it is fairly good and does not exactly glorify her.  It do make reference to the usage of her as Hamas propaganda and it does give the IDF side of what happened in that incident and in later shootings of internationals there by the IDF.  Overall I found the article to be much more neutral and more detailed then similar articles in major US newspapers actually.

The article is here:

http://www.findarticles.com/p....ontinue

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

It is still derogatory towards jews and israelis and its also a sign of your poor debating skills.

[miles teg 1]

Did I say she was not dead? It's was a different bulldozer and area were she was killed.

Where does it say that it was a different bulldozer and in a different area to where she was killed?

They acknowledged that the pictures of her in front of the bulldozer were shot hours before, but I didn't see anything that said that it was a different place. Or did you just make that up?

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>