War against terror

[Sophion-Black 0]

What people fail to realize, is that their God is the God of Abraham (as is Christianity and Judaism). All three of theese major religions are very closely related. Even to the point of the Old Testament/Torah/parts of the Quran, thier identical! So STOP pulling religion into this thread!

*shakes head in shame*

listen, if you can name ten wars where religion is not involved then i would have to say you are making it up. its a part of the opposing side's makeup. It's part of who they are.

Quote[/b] ]And add the feeling of being oppressed by the western world, and the feeling that the western world is forcing our way of life on them...

Why? because they see an American in their back yard and automatically think he's a christian? That their religion is under siege because of a stereotype!? What about the Pakistanis? The Thai? The Japanese? The South Koreans? Not all of these people in Iraq and Afghanistan are Christians!!! So they think that because ONE American is there they will force them to convert to Christianity. But yet the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or the Chinese (having their own religion) will not try to convert them? Or that they just don't matter enought to listen so they will force thier religion on them after a while!? ARE YOU INSANE!?!?!?!?

[denoir 0]

The reason why you see muslims rioting over religious trivialities is well, because they are very religious, unlike for instance western christians who are mostly guided by secular values. Add poverty and political manipulation to that and you get what we have today.

And add the feeling of being oppressed by the western world, and the feeling that the western world is forcing our way of life on them...

Oppressed by the west? How do you figure that?  

I think they are more frustrated by seeing the rest of the world (and not just the west) developing, but they're stuck in the same crap, which leaves them searching for something - and it ends up being religion. It's an inferiority complex that is being exploited and furthered by their corrupt leaders, both religious and political.

Ultimately, when it comes to religion, I'm a bit more worried about America. Some 44% of Americans believe that Jesus will probably return within the next 50 years (armageddon). It is a bit unnerving that a country with 20,000+ strategic nuclear warheads is expecting an apocalypse soon... A nuclear war in the middle east would be seen by a significant portion of the US population as a joyful thing announcing the imminent arrival of Jesus. And on the other hand you have at least equally fanatical Muslims who are quite happy at the prospect of a religious war.

The Cold War may have been dangerous, but at least there were two rational players in the game. With religious nuts playing the game, anything can happen.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

listen, if you can name ten wars where religion is not involved then i would have to say you are making it up. its a part of the opposing side's makeup. It's part of who they are.

ww1 wasnt about religion and that was a pretty big war.  You can try pull religion into it but at the end of the day it was created by tensions between Germany and the rest of Europe.  If you think its somthing else then you really need to read a history book.

Quote[/b] ]Oppressed by the west? How do you figure that?

well palastinians might feel opressed becusae Israel has closed there borders meaning that they no longer recieve aid or even medical supplys.  There only Power Station* was bombed, for little reason, and sanctions are place on a democraticly elected goverment.  now if somone did that too you wouldnt you feel opressed?

the thing is from these debates the real feel seems to be Amerian + Israelis Vs. The rest of the world.  Sorry to say it but its a definite impression im getting.  I find american democracy hard to understand.  It trys to promote democray around the world, but as soon as somone is demoraticly elected whom they dont like suddenly there not such big fans of it and claim foul play.

Hamas (ok, they are terrorists at the end of the day so i can accept that one). but for other countries its outragous.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Ultimately, when it comes to religion, I'm a bit more worried about America. Some 44% of Americans believe that Jesus will probably return within the next 50 years (armageddon). It is a bit unnerving that a country with 20,000+ strategic nuclear warheads is expecting an apocalypse soon... A nuclear war in the middle east would be seen by a significant portion of the US population as a joyful thing announcing the imminent arrival of Jesus. And on the other hand you have at least equally fanatical Muslims who are quite happy at the prospect of a religious war.

How many generations said they believe their time was the last time? and where did you get this figure? your head?

Quote[/b] ]ww1 wasnt about religion and that was a pretty big war.  You can try pull religion into it but at the end of the day it was created by tensions between Germany and the rest of Europe.  If you think its somthing else then you really need to read a history book.

Come on, it was total war! you look at the places affected by colonization and you realize that some of their religions disappeared? Not to mention the Arab Revolt. if you count the WOT as a war with religion in it you would be forced to add WWI to the list as well.

Quote[/b] ]well palastinians might feel opressed becusae Israel has closed there borders meaning that they no longer recieve aid or even medical supplys.  There only Power Station* was bombed, for little reason, and sanctions are place on a democraticly elected goverment.  now if somone did that too you wouldnt you feel opressed?[see #1]

the thing is from these debates the real feel seems to be Amerian + Israelis Vs. The rest of the world[see #2].  Sorry to say it but its a definite impression im getting.  I find american democracy hard to understand.  It trys to promote democray around the world, but as soon as somone is demoraticly elected whom they dont like suddenly there not such big fans of it and claim foul play[see #3].

Hamas (ok, they are terrorists at the end of the day so i can accept that one).  but for other countries its outragous.

1) Being suppressed by a neighboring country is not the west. Especially if its Israel (look at your geography there slick).

2) Israel... well... doesnt need any ones help. they're doing just fine kicking Aces by themselves (and has quite a history doing it without US aid too!

3) The only nation that fits that bill is the Hamas govt. If you have any other nations that i have not listed... feel free to make up a few!

Man... getting all worked up makes me feel like i need a few shots (Russky Standart here I come!!!!!

[Sertorius 0]

Quote[/b] ]and where did you get this figure? your head?

Americans aren't exactly known for being rational when religion comes up. For instance, take this story. When 61% of your population believes in literal Genesis, there's obviously more than a few fundamentalists about.

Edit - And stories like this one make me want to slam my head against a brick wall. Well, at least we accept evolution more than people in Turkey, but I don't think that says much.

[denoir 0]

How many generations said they believe their time was the last time? and where did you get this figure? your head?

October 1999, Pew Research Center "Americans look to the 21st century."

[*]44% believed that Jesus will probably return during their lifetime.

[*]22% said that Jesus will definitely return before 2050 CE.

[*]44% believed that Jesus will probably not return during their lifetime.

In addition, there's a Princeton Research Associates conducted poll for Newsweek magazine's 1999 november issue with the following findings:

The following percentage of adults believed that the world will end with the battle of Armageddon as described in the Biblical book Revelation:  40% of American adults generally

45% of Christian adults

71% of Evangelical Protestants

28% of non-Evangelical Protestants

18% of Roman Catholics

Of those who believed that Armageddon will happen:  47% believe that the Antichrist is on earth now

45% believe that Jesus will return during their lifetime.

15% believed that Jesus' return to earth will occur as early as the year 2000 CE. Of this group:  83% believed that the second coming will be preceded by natural disasters; 66% by epidemics; 62% by mayhem.

95% felt that they must "get right with the Lord" now in the expectation that Christ will return

62% felt an obligation to proselytize -- to convert non-Christians

68% expected to go to heaven

57% believed in the final judgment where people will be divided into two groups for transportation to heaven or hell.

For more see: http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl6.htm

As for end-of-the-world predictions of earlier generations, that was always a small minority. And it is so today in most countries as well. You won't find Swedes, Germans or Chinese waiting for the apocalypse. You won't find it in other very Christian nations either. This seems to be a belief relatively exclusive (in such wide-spread fashion) to American christians - evangelicals in particular.

As I said - a bit unnerving considering the number of nuclear weapons america possesses. A civilization hoping for the end of the world to come should not have weapons of mass destruction. And given that their focus is the volatile middle east, their apocalyptic prophecy may end up being a self-fulfilling one.

I believe and hope that the rational side of American society will prevail, but sometimes I do wonder.

[EiZei 0]

What about the Pakistanis? The Thai? The Japanese? The South Koreans? Not all of these people in Iraq and Afghanistan are Christians!!!

Sending a token force to keep up appearances and inititiating the invasion itself are quite different things.

And by "way of life" im sure he meant secularism and not christianity.

[martinovic 0]

The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious. All it did was convince the people there to join the Mujahedeen.

The US and NATO are trying to do the exact same thing.

The war nerd - as always - has some valuable insight into all of this.

[*Pete* 0]

The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

....we are at war??...against who?

simply becouse someone yells "Jihad against [nation]" on a street, or sends in a tape with the proclamation to a newsagency...doesnt mean there is, or will be a war.

besides.....your list is wrong.

the question you were answering was "name a war started by religion"

that they happen to call a war "jihad" doesnt make it more religious than the fact that all sides in ww2 had "god with there side"

was ww2 a religious war??..the germans had belts with the words "god midt uns" (or something) written on them.

There was a Jihad declared against Sovjet after the invaded afganistan.... religious war??

id call it a defensive war, war against occupation, rebellion...would you call it religious?

doest matter than many mujahedeens came from other countries to fight sovjet, look at ww2...Poland got attacked by the Germans and then it became a world war.

becouse of religion?..no, becouse of military alliances based on the "all for one, one for all" defence....much like "jihad"

9/11..the twin towers, THAT is a war you could call religious...it was started by a small band of highly religious people who didnt have a common nation, no territorial intrests, no personal gain...other than a place in the paradise.

this is what i call a war started by religion.

but Iraq, and even the ongoing "war" against Israel are NOT what i would call started by religion.

you could try to occupy land and territory of atheists, and still would get the same kind of resistance as you get in Iraq and Palestine.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]And add the feeling of being oppressed by the western world, and the feeling that the western world is forcing our way of life on them...

Why? because they see an American in their back yard and automatically think he's a christian? That their religion is under siege because of a stereotype!? What about the Pakistanis? The Thai? The Japanese? The South Koreans? Not all of these people in Iraq and Afghanistan are Christians!!! So they think that because ONE American is there they will force them to convert to Christianity. But yet the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or the Chinese (having their own religion) will not try to convert them? Or that they just don't matter enought to listen so they will force thier religion on them after a while!? ARE YOU INSANE!?!?!?!?

No, you are insane...

Who's is fronting the wars in the muslim counties? Mainly USA, and after that western world countries. I never said I mean the western world is oppressing muslim countries and forcing our way of life on them, I said many muslims probably feel that way. And if you actually mean that only way of forcing our way/(oppressing?) of life on muslims is to convert them to christianity, then I suggest you go think about what role christianity really plays in the modern western society...

Quote[/b] ]Oppressed by the west? How do you figure that?

Mainly because the western world is stronger than the muslims countries, and therefor are able to decide the "rules". If Iran bombs a US embassy, it's terror because the western world says so. If USA bombs a Iranian embassy, it's a military operation/faulty bomb/whatever sucky excuse. If USA has nukes, it's because USA is the good side, and they won't use nukes to anything bad, while if Iran even thinks about touching anything that's close to nukes, the western world crys out because the western world means Iran is the bad guy etc etc. In short, the western world (with USA in front) decides what's right and what's wrong, who's bad, who's good etc. Also, you got the thing some time back when the western world was sitting down there controlling most of that area, and such situations as "Fuck you, I'll bomb you to the stone-age if you don't do what I tell you to..." (and if people didn't understand that, refering to the claimed threats against pakistan).

[bucket man 2]

Also, there's mostly this thing called Islam involved, but that's just a minor technicality. Even though they all seem to fight for it...

Islam is involved but not the reason why the conflicts involving Islam started. I can pretty much prove my point because I am almost sure you cant name even one war that was started because of Islam.

Incomplete list:

The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)

The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)

The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)

The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)

The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)

The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)

The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)

The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)

The Jihad against Chinese (751)

The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)

The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)

The Crusade against Jihad (1096 ? 1291 ongoing)

The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)

The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)

The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)

The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)

The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)

The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)

The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)

The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)

The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)

The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)

The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)

The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)

The Jihad against Austrians (1683)

The Jihad against Israelis (1920 onwards)

The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)

The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Germans (1945 onwards)

The Jihad against the Indians (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)

The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)

The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)

The Global Jihad today (2001 ? ongoing)

Well I cant comment on most of them because of my limited knowledge and I did talk about modern conflicts. Sorry if I was unclear.

However I have to wonder how the last ones were started because of Islam?

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

I assume you mean the chechen conflict? If you do, then you should know that it has nothing to do with Islam but was instead started because the chechens want independence.

They have always wanted it and have rebelled everytime they felt Russia was weak enough and it has nothing to do with them being muslims.

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

This one doesnt exist. Show me a war that was started by muslims against the Dutch or Belgians.

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

Look above. Actually because all of the "Jihads" that are last on your list dont even exist I can safely assume so is with the most of your list.

The ones that do exist were not started because of religion but because of land, riches or something else like the war in Chechnya.

One fine example would be the "Jihad against israelis" that you listed.

It was not started because israelis are jews but because many muslims feel that they stole their land. I aint touching the question of wether they did steal it or not here but still the wars between muslims and israelis have nothing to do with religion but are about land.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

This one doesnt exist. Show me a war that was started by muslims against the Dutch or Belgians.

I suppose she is referring to Theo van Gogh's murder, though I still find it rather questionable calling couple of killings/dumb shit posted on the net a holy war.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Also, there's mostly this thing called Islam involved, but that's just a minor technicality. Even though they all seem to fight for it...  

Islam is involved but not the reason why the conflicts involving Islam started. I can pretty much prove my point because I am almost sure you cant name even one war that was started because of Islam.

Incomplete list:

The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)

The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)

The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)

The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)

The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)

The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)

The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)

The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)

The Jihad against Chinese (751)

The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)

The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)

The Crusade against Jihad (1096 ? 1291 ongoing)

The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)

The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)

The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)

The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)

The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)

The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)

The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)

The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)

The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)

The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)

The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)

The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)

The Jihad against Austrians (1683)

The Jihad against Israelis (1920 onwards)

The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)

The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Germans (1945 onwards)

The Jihad against the Indians (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)

The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)

The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)

The Global Jihad today (2001 ? ongoing)

Well I cant comment on most of them because of my limited knowledge and I did talk about modern conflicts. Sorry if I was unclear.

However I have to wonder how the last ones were started because of Islam?

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

I assume you mean the chechen conflict? If you do, then you should know that it has nothing to do with Islam but was instead started because the chechens want independence.

They have always wanted it and have rebelled everytime they felt Russia was weak enough and it has nothing to do with them being muslims.

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

This one doesnt exist. Show me a war that was started by muslims against the Dutch or Belgians.

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

Look above. Actually because all of the "Jihads" that are last on your list dont even exist I can safely assume so is with the most of your list.

The ones that do exist were not started because of religion but because of land, riches or something else like the war in Chechnya.

One fine example would be the "Jihad against israelis" that you listed.

It was not started because israelis are jews but because many muslims feel that they stole their land. I aint touching the question of wether they did steal it or not here but still the wars between muslims and israelis have nothing to do with religion but are about land.

avon lady has carelessly pulled up conflicts that involve Muslims and labelled them as Jihad.  thats not true.

Quote[/b] ] 1) Being suppressed by a neighboring country is not the west. Especially if its Israel (look at your geography there slick).

2) Israel... well... doesnt need any ones help. they're doing just fine kicking Aces by themselves (and has quite a history doing it without US aid too!

3) The only nation that fits that bill is the Hamas govt. If you have any other nations that i have not listed... feel free to make up a few!

1. Israel was created, supported and funded by the west. It even says it is part of Europe. Its the west's only real foothole in the middle east, its a eastern nation with a western way of life.

2. well yes it does. It gets pretty much all of its weapons from the USA. If the USA stopped funding Israel its likely there economy would completly collapse. Without the USA and other western backers, Israel would be nothing.

3. Chavez - venuzala comes to mind

Mexico

Russia - arguamnts between Plutin and Bush

Popular take over's in Africa , where US goverment backs dicators to prevent popular population movements getting any power mostly because there muslims.

[CsonkaPityu 0]

I do not know about the others theavonlady mentioned but...

Quote[/b] ]The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)

The Jihad against Austrians (1683)

The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)

The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)

The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)

The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)

These were the Ottoman Empire trying to expand since the Ottoman Empire's economy was pillage based (they paid their armies/administration with pillaged gold, without looting and expansion campaigns the Empire would've gone bankrupt). It was not religious. Otherwise we mightaswell call it Jihad everytime some muslim decides to look mean at me.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

and by the 1800's ottamen empire was in serious trouble, with Britian and France Lusting after its terroritory , partiularly Egypt (suez canal). Most wars in empire period were due to economic motives, not religious.

[Donnervogel 0]

I suppose she is referring to Theo van Gogh's murder, though I still find it rather questionable calling couple of killings/dumb shit posted on the net a holy war.

Well "Jihad" doesn't neceserally mean a holy war in the sense of a physical conflict fought with "military" means. In some cases it doesn't even mean any physical conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Quote[/b] ]

Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God):[1]

* Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.

* Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.

* Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).

* Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.

* Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

but not all wars invloving Muslims are Jihad, that has to be understood.

Pakistani peacekeepers were in somalia, effectivly fighting a war, but they were not on Jihad against Somlalian rebels.

[Sophion-Black 0]

As for end-of-the-world predictions of earlier generations, that was always a small minority. And it is so today in most countries as well.

What about the cold war? WWII? WWI? what are the figures for them? you stuffed all these figures out for your argument but you somehow refuse to look into others that may dispel your view? why? (BTW: I'm Protestant-Baptist, this is why I've never really been subject to many people saying "ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!")

Quote[/b] ]The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious

and just what was the dominant religion for the USSR? Atheism?

Quote[/b] ]And if you actually mean that only way of forcing our way/(oppressing?) of life on muslims is to convert them to christianity...

Explain "our way of life." Is it "our government system?" "Culture?"

Quote[/b] ]1.  Israel was created, supported and funded by the west.  It even says it is part of Europe.  Its the west's only real foothole in the middle east, its a eastern nation with a western way of life.

2.  well yes it does.  It gets pretty much all of its weapons from the USA.  If the USA stopped funding Israel its likely there economy would completly collapse.  Without the USA and other western backers, Israel would be nothing.

3.  Chavez - venuzala comes to mind

   Mexico

   Russia - arguamnts between Plutin and Bush

   Popular take over's in Africa , where US goverment backs dicators to prevent popular population movements getting any power mostly because there muslims.

1) Israel was created because the Jewish people felt that they needed to have their own land back. To be honest the first nation to recognize Israel as a nation (de jure, meaning by law) was the Soviet Union!

2) the US has already stopped funding Israel, were in something called trade

3) Venezuela-2,101,850 (32.04%) were null&void for the 2000 parliamentary election. that's quite a bit don't you think? Besides... wouldn't you be a little ticked if someone called you a devil?

Mexico-Huh? the population is mad at Mexico because they can't keep their people.

Russia-you obviously don't know the concept of democracy? yes you have arguments--that's what leads to compromise! (hopefully)

Popular take over's in Africa-hmm, no specifics. could this be a load a BS?

Quote[/b] ]but not all wars invloving Muslims are Jihad, that has to be understood.

indeed. Just because there is a war involving Christians doesn't mean its a crusade now either.

[bogo 0]

1) Israel was created because the Jewish people felt that they needed to have their own land back. To be honest the first nation to recognize Israel as a nation (de jure, meaning by law) was the Soviet Union!

The Jews never had a country. If we go back in time the country which today you called Israel was taken from the cannities.

Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800BC, the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanities.

"Between 3000 and 1100BC, Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan… Those would remain in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century AD] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks an old Canaanite tribes."

Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright,

"Their Promised Land".

2) the US has already stopped funding Israel, were in something called trade

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3309771,00.html

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

As for end-of-the-world predictions of earlier generations, that was always a small minority. And it is so today in most countries as well.

What about the cold war? WWII? WWI? what are the figures for them? you stuffed all these figures out for your argument but you somehow refuse to look into others that may dispel your view? why? (BTW: I'm Protestant-Baptist, this is why I've never really been subject to many people saying "ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!")

Quote[/b] ]The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious

and just what was the dominant religion for the USSR? Atheism?

Quote[/b] ]And if you actually mean that only way of forcing our way/(oppressing?) of life on muslims is to convert them to christianity...

Explain "our way of life." Is it "our government system?" "Culture?"

Quote[/b] ]1.  Israel was created, supported and funded by the west.  It even says it is part of Europe.  Its the west's only real foothole in the middle east, its a eastern nation with a western way of life.

2.  well yes it does.  It gets pretty much all of its weapons from the USA.  If the USA stopped funding Israel its likely there economy would completly collapse.  Without the USA and other western backers, Israel would be nothing.

3.  Chavez - venuzala comes to mind

   Mexico

   Russia - arguamnts between Plutin and Bush

   Popular take over's in Africa , where US goverment backs dicators to prevent popular population movements getting any power mostly because there muslims.

1) Israel was created because the Jewish people felt that they needed to have their own land back. To be honest the first nation to recognize Israel as a nation (de jure, meaning by law) was the Soviet Union!

2) the US has already stopped funding Israel, were in something called trade

3) Venezuela-2,101,850 (32.04%) were null&void for the 2000 parliamentary election. that's quite a bit don't you think? Besides... wouldn't you be a little ticked if someone called you a devil?

Mexico-Huh? the population is mad at Mexico because they can't keep their people.

Russia-you obviously don't know the concept of democracy? yes you have arguments--that's what leads to compromise! (hopefully)

Popular take over's in Africa-hmm, no specifics. could this be a load a BS?

Quote[/b] ]but not all wars invloving Muslims are Jihad, that has to be understood.

indeed. Just because there is a war involving Christians doesn't mean its a crusade now either.

1. Infact it was Britian, seeing how Britian set up the state of Israel following jewish terrorism and pressure.

2. Trade only as a way of funding, if the US didnt support Israel would it trade with it as much? perhaps, perhaps not, im not a economist.

3. fair points , i was thinking like recent event in Somalia

and on your last comment i never suggested that, and its not true, becuase a crusade has to be initated by the Pope.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious

and just what was the dominant religion for the USSR? Atheism?

What does the dominant religion in USSR have to do with the war in afghanistan? Wether or not christianity or atheism or any other religion was dominant doesn't change the fact that USSR didn't attack afghanistan because of religion.

Quote[/b] ]Explain "our way of life." Is it "our government system?" "Culture?"

Mainly goverment system. To me it seems that the western world means every country, that doesn't have the same goverment system, got a crappy goverment system, and that the western world are doing them a favor by busting in and changing it to the way they (the western world) mean is best.

Quote[/b] ]2) the US has already stopped funding Israel, were in something called trade

So Bush lied before the election? I'm quite sure I read a statement by him where he said something like "As long as I am the president, we will continue to support our friends (refering to Israel) economically"...of course that's just by memory, so I won't say it's 100% accurate...

And seeing that according to the article bogo linked to, I think the the non-funding by USA is quite busted by that 500 million boost.

[Sophion-Black 0]

2) the US has already stopped funding Israel, were in something called trade

(link)

That's a collaborative effort not a "here you go have fun" deal. It the US's way of getting a better "Patriot" system.

Quote[/b] ]1. Infact it was Britian, seeing how Britian set up the state of Israel following jewish terrorism and pressure.

2. Trade only as a way of funding, if the US didnt support Israel would it trade with it as much? perhaps, perhaps not, im not a economist.

3. fair points , i was thinking like recent event in Somalia

Re1) Israel declared independence from Britain, I'm talking along the lines as a foreign state.

Re2) Trade is a mutual benefit.

Re3) Somalia... huh? That country-- no! not even a country! its a band of gangs! with a make-believe government!

Quote[/b] ]and on your last comment i never suggested that, and its not true, becuase a crusade has to be initated by the Pope.

But yet there is a whole lot of people in the world saying that the WOT is!

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious

and just what was the dominant religion for the USSR? Atheism?

What does the dominant religion in USSR have to do with the war in afghanistan? Wether or not christianity or atheism or any other religion was dominant doesn't change the fact that USSR didn't attack afghanistan because of religion.

DO WHAT!!! DID YOU READ THE UNDERLINED PART!? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS TYPED!? The USSR didn't force their "religion" on the Afghans because they had none!!!

Quote[/b] ]Mainly goverment system... (can't really understand the rest. somthing about that we think we're helping the middle east because we are giving them democracy)

Its a proven fact: Dictatorships make less money than Democracies. Later in life they will come to understand this and will "come to terms" with the change. Besides most of the population in Iraq welcomes the change. but you all wouldn't know it by the press.

Quote[/b] ]So Bush lied before the election? I'm quite sure I read a statement by him where he said something like "As long as I am the president, we will continue to support our friends (refering to Israel) economically"...of course that's just by memory, so I won't say it's 100% accurate...

Are you that naive or stupid? be them Republican, Democrat, Independent, Socialist, or any other type of politician: they will lie. now don't get me wrong, everyone [language, tribe, and nation] has done it.

Quote[/b] ]And seeing that according to the article bogo linked to, I think the the non-funding by USA is quite busted by that 500 million boost

Again, its a collaborative effort. The US is paying the Israelis to develop this technology in return, the US will the the technology as well.

[bogo 0]

That's a collaborative effort not a "here you go have fun" deal. It the US's way of getting a better "Patriot" system.

Why don't you read the entire article.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

the war on terror is clearly not a crusade. Its a act to improve the economic status of the imperialistic nature of the USA.

[Garcia 0]

DO WHAT!!! DID YOU READ THE UNDERLINED PART!? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS TYPED!? The USSR didn't force their "religion" on the Afghans because they had none!!!

Are you on drugs or something?

Quote[/b] ]The Soviets tried promoting better health-care, education and equal rights between women and men in afghanistan, nothing religious

I think that was refering to that the war in afganistan wasn't because of religion...and if he was or not is really irrelevant, because in that case you managed to say exactly the same thing as he did, since he said "nothing religious", which would mean "religion not being forced upon anyone", in which case your reply to his statement was totally unnecessary, and there was especially no point in making the already unnecessary reply somewhat cocky. Therefor, the combination of a reply that was either a) a reply to something that was never claimed or b) a cocky forumlated reply that said exactly the same as the original statement, lead me to wondering what the reply really was about.

And SHOUTING and using A LOT of !?!?!?!?!?!11111||| doesn't prove any point.

Quote[/b] ]Its a proven fact: Dictatorships make less money than Democracies. Later in life they will come to understand this and will "come to terms" with the change. Besides most of the population in Iraq welcomes the change. but you all wouldn't know it by the press.

And it still doesn't change the fact that some people will feel oppressed and feel that the western world is shuving their opinions of what's best for muslims down their throat. Some people will keep on living their life, while for others this may just increase the disgust they already feel towards the western world because of other factors...if I'm convinced I'm better off with a monkey and a wolf in charge of my country, I'd probably give jack shit about wether or not I may or may not realise that I'm better of with someone/something else in charge...

Quote[/b] ]Are you that naive or stupid?

No, but I'm starting to look at you that way

Quote[/b] ]be them Republican, Democrat, Independent, Socialist, or any other type of politician: they will lie. now don't get me wrong, everyone [language, tribe, and nation] has done it.

Yes it's a known thing that politicians say lots of crap and lie and lie and lie and then lie a bit more, but honestly, I don't think Bush would have lied about supporting Israel. He loves Israel as much as his own dick. At least it seems to.

Quote[/b] ]The package comes in addition to USD 2.36 billion in military aid granted to Israel by the US each year.

And I don't know what you consider "military aid" to be, but I consider it to be economical support to Israel.

Quote[/b] ]Besides most of the population in Iraq welcomes the change. but you all wouldn't know it by the press.

Oh and yes, is that based on the same utter bullshit like "Oh the Iraqis will welcome us when we go there. We'll have no problems. Just a quick trip in, take out Saddam and his hard core followers, and then we'll have a easy time establishing our goverment system. We'll be out in no time!"...cause if I remember correctly, Bush was quite sure something like that was gonna happen. And tell me, is there suicide bombers there every day because the Iraqis simply love blowing themself up to show their joy about the changes? Is/(was) Iraq on the verge of civil war simply because they found the changes to be so perfect that they just had to find something to do to make it a bit less perfect? You talk about being naive? Through numerous medias I haven't really seen anything that points in the direction that a vast majority of the Iraqi population welcomes the changes. Most information I've seen (much from US medias) suggest the opposite.

And how come your news sources are so much better? You got some secret universially true media that always tells the truth?