War against terror

[philcommando 0]

Quote[/b] ]7. People in thousands die all over the world. Some natural and some by accidents. Those living in a declared war zones take their chances based on their knowledge they may face death each hour and could make the necessary decisions to evacute or support a peaceful authority that may bring order but instead, they chosed to kill such peaceful legislators instead!

They had a choice, but innocent civilians in a non war zone did not had that choice - they were brutually murdered. Make no mistakes and DO NOT insult the memory of the dead! They died because of criminal acts condone by a portion of the dredges of humanity, eyes blinded by religious fervour and humanity rights, necessary actions delayed by talks of diplomacy or cowardice to confront such evil, insane justifications of what is tantamount to rights or wrongs. THEY ARE DEAD BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO ACT OR ALLOW OTHERS TO ACT!!!!

Sorry apollo. hunger and problems of the world are being solved or attempts to solve it, its another story,but what we have now is

MURDER!!!! OF THE MOST FOUL!!!

and not only happened yesterday but will continue to happen tomorrow. Must we wait till our very own love ones are murdered before we act? The dead and their families seek justice!!

[Panda-PL- 0]

So don't say "ITS THE BAD GUY KILL HIM" Don't forget that your government pull dictator, train terrorist...

Well EXCUUUSE-ME.

I don't give a damn about GWB. He's not my president and I didn't vote for him. I don't think I would because he's a lier and a complete moron. He only does what his advisors and fellow bussinesman tell him.

Tell You what: here in Poland noone even for a moment belived this "mass destruction" and "Iraqi connection" crap. Neither did anyone bellived that we have anything to gain - that was bull*** all over. But majority (and me) supported the invasion.

Why? Because we wanted to get the bastard for what he's been dooing to Iraqi opposition and because of what he's done to the Kurds.

You can speak any kind of insults against US - I'll mostely agree, but if there's one good think to the war is that this murderer will be brought to justice and then he will never threathen his nation again.

If you don't understand then it is propably because You don't know anyone from Poland, but it's our tradition never to compromise with evil.

And anyway, where were you all democracy-and-freedom-lovers 12 years ago?!

WTF is wrong with you Americans?! Wasn't it you that turned your back at Kurds after the first war in the gulf?! Noone protested back then. As long as it was Kurds dieing everything was fine, but when american boys get killed you suddenly wake up and start that "don't kill for oil" routine. Hipocrits!

Quote[/b] ]If it's for the sake of humanity ,then start give terrorism less attention ,and try to alleviate some of the REAL problems in this world.

Like what? Poor Mother Earth crying? Global warming? What's more important then ensuring personal safety, so that people can live.

All the time you try to "divide the blame" or marginalise the meaning of terrorism.

Why don't you go and conviunce the terrorers to find themself "more important trgings" to do then?

There is a bunch of people who want to hummilitate You and enslave You. A bunch of people who think that they are soo much better then you, that it is their duty to do so and to rule you. What is it that is more important?!

All the Real Problems must be solved parallerly, because there is such chance. Stopping terrorism is important.

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]nothing changed despite you belonging to the majority other than ' we abhor such acts but..."

THERE IS NO "BUT"!

In my family at least, there is not "but" in acts of terrorism, especially when it's done in the name of OUR religion. We hate these monsters and we'll do everything in our power to help you combat them. I am NOT an apologist...meaning I'm not prepared to apologise for what others did. However, I am willing to set things straight. I do everything in my ability to combat these bastards...what more do you want?! If you want the rest of the muslims to do the same, then I can't help you there...I can't control all muslims and I'm definitely not a representative of all of them.

I, and other muslims have extended our hands - for some reason you don't wish to accept. Ken Livingstone said quite rightly in his speech that we are all in this together...what these terrorists want is to divide us; to turn us against eachother. I wish to ensure that does not happen.

So now it's up to the rest of the muslims; it's not as simple as you think. Some will fight terrorism, some will support it openly, some will silently approve of it, some will support it because they hate the west, etc etc. Whether or not they fight terrorism is NOT IN MY POWER.

Quote[/b] ]Please, scopio, i beg you. This is not a threat, only to seek that you and your faith ACT NOW to stop these minority criminals hiding in your midst. Do not obstruct others from doing their duty by blinding yourself to religious fervour, but search your heart with fellow moderates in your mosque, if we are infidels, no lower than an ant to be used for propaganda purposes by any village idiot who puts on a white cap denoting himself a wise man who made his pilgrimage to Mecca. ..

Philcommando, I admire your thoughts, I really do. But I can't suddenly just MAKE the rest of the adherents of my faith do what I want them to do. I hate to say it but our civilisation that was once actually civilised has degenerated into divided states with almost every single government being untrustworthy, corrupt, and spreading propaganda.

The real muslims among us can't do anything majorly effective because there is no worldwide leadership or authority...an example is the Pope - he works to unite the sects Christianity but where is the Prophet or the Imam to unite the sects of Islam? As Panda[PL] rightly said, they all go about their own interprations of faith and make their own sects.

Do what you want to do, but in the end, we can only pray that this will not become a war between peoples.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ] And I believe in Darfur this is exactly the case. The people of Darfur are getting terrorised in Darfur in the name of the Islam.

You believe, that´s the point.

In fact it´s not about Islam. Read about it. I beg you....

If you don´t read what I wrote or quoted or linked, I can´t help it.

The militia are NOT islam driven terrorists comparable to AQ or any other islam motivated terrorist group. Don´t you get that ?

They are neither an organization nor are they acting for any political purpose unless they get abused by the government for their own agenda.

They are acting for their own wealth and for ETHNICAL reasons. ETHNICAL reasons are DIFFERENT to RELIGIOUS reasons.

Goddamnit, it looks like you have to hammer something into heads before they realize what the heck they are talking about.

You may like the idea of Dafur beeing an islamistic motivated terror thing, but it isn´t.

Noone on this planet ever stated that the Dafur conflict is a thing that islamist terrorists pulled through. Noone, only you Ironsight. And Bordoy. That makes 2.

Read some analyzes of the Dafur situation and trace the roots of the militia. They have goals I repeatedly mentioned. But those are no goals comparable to AQ-like terrorists.

Again, according to your reasoning every conflict in Africa would be lead by islamistic terrorists. That´s really stupid.

And for the "definition" of terrorism. I guess there are about 200 different definitions of terrorism.

Once again such definitions are defined by the point you´re looking at it.

As I said:

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

Enough said, time to get seriously drunk the bavarian way !

Time to get some freedom beer and anti-terror pretzels and Radi

Off to Landshuter Hochzeit

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]7. People in thousands die all over the world. Some natural and some by accidents. Those living in a declared war zones take their chances based on their knowledge they may face death each hour and could make the necessary decisions to evacute or support a peaceful authority that may bring order but instead, they chosed to kill such peaceful legislators instead!

They had a choice, but innocent civilians in a non war zone did not had that choice - they were brutually murdered. Make no mistakes and DO NOT insult the memory of the dead! They died because of criminal acts condone by a portion of the dredges of humanity, eyes blinded by religious fervour and humanity rights, necessary actions delayed by talks of diplomacy or cowardice to confront such evil, insane justifications of what is tantamount to rights or wrongs. THEY ARE DEAD BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO ACT OR ALLOW OTHERS TO ACT!!!!

Sorry apollo. hunger and problems of the world are being solved or attempts to solve it, its another story,but what we have now is

MURDER!!!! OF THE MOST FOUL!!!

and not only happened yesterday but will continue to happen tomorrow. Must we wait till our very own love ones are murdered before we act?  The dead and their families seek justice!!

I'm not saying that terrorism inst something worth to be fought against.Rather i ask you to stay proportional ,The US have wasted billions ,whole percentage's of the BNP in increased security and the war against terrorims ,compared to this staggering amount of funds ,funds given to good causes like solving hunger ,disease and ethnic cleansing along the world are virtually nothing compared to funds for the war agaisnt terror.

And note that funds for the war agaisnt terror hardly can be invested effeciantly ,the war against terror and so many more security measures later there still is not much of an increased chance to stop terrorist attack ,the backlash of the war against terror is even more terrorists.

Ironicly ,i would say you would better combat terrorism by investing those funds rather in such good causes ,poverty ,unemployment ,lack of civil freedom or illiteracy are a excelent basis for Al-Quiada for recruitment.

Quote[/b] ]Like what? Poor Mother Earth crying? Global warming? What's more important then ensuring personal safety, so that people can live.

All the time you try to "divide the blame" or marginalise the meaning of terrorism.

Why don't you go and conviunce the terrorers to find themself "more important trgings" to do then?

There is a bunch of people who want to hummilitate You and enslave You. A bunch of people who think that they are soo much better then you, that it is their duty to do so and to rule you. What is it that is more important?!

Reality ,in figures and numbers.Terrorism is moraly most foul ,but kill's few globaly and is realisticly ,NOT MORALLY ,a far lesser problem than Aids in Africa ,or ethnic cleansing in many parts of the world.You can shout as much "terrorism ,most foul" as you want ,but you can't look asside from the figure's ,wich clearly show that in reality terrorism is a lesser problem.

I don't want to justify it with that ,but i don't see the point why you would invest Billions to try to prevent 10.000 killed ,and meager peanut's to prevent 1.000.000 killed ,especially if you can get more effeciancy in alleviating other problems.

Quote[/b] ]Why? Because we wanted to get the bastard for what he's been dooing to Iraqi opposition and because of what he's done to the Kurds.

You can speak any kind of insults against US - I'll mostely agree, but if there's one good think to the war is that this murderer will be brought to justice and then he will never threathen his nation again.

If you don't understand then it is propably because You don't know anyone from Poland, but it's our tradition never to compromise with evil.

I can understand this sentiment to a certain point.But i wonder how you view the USA in this democracy installing liberator scenario's.Because ,may i mention ,there are dozens of dictator's around the world doing nasty stuff ,Africa is full of it ,and in South America some of these murderous dictator's have even to thank the USA for their carreer.

Someone here mentioned Batista just a thread ago ,i'm no castro fan but i can understand why the cubans wanted to get rid of Batista.

Quote[/b] ]Enough said, time to get seriously drunk the bavarian way !

Time to get some freedom beer and anti-terror pretzels and Radi

I officially declare my favourite Belgian beer ,"castle beer" (11%) as our national freedom beer.And now im going to drink a beer of 2 on Freedom.   (hik!

Oh ,and i deffinatly going to try those beers when im in Germany again.Especially because they are Bavarian.  

[Bernadotte 0]

How was the CIA supposed to know that Osama would become an extremist.

Are you actually suggesting that Osama was not already an extremist back when he was funnelling money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the world into the Afghan/Soviet war?

In any case, the CIA channelled America's anti-Soviet aid through Pakistan's intelligence service and it is they who forwarded it to pro-Pakistan Afghan extremists like the Taliban (who just happened to be hosting Osama).

[Ironsight 1]

They are acting for their own wealth and for ETHNICAL reasons. ETHNICAL reasons are DIFFERENT to RELIGIOUS reasons.

Goddamnit, it looks like you have to hammer something into heads before they realize what the heck they are talking about.

Again, I feel that ETHNICITY and RELIGION are very close connected. But that's just only my opinion so don't bother.

I think RELIGION is most of the times used as an excuse for ETHNICAL conflicts, but again this is my opinion so don't bother.

Quote[/b] ]Noone on this planet ever stated that the Dafur conflict is a thing that islamist terrorists pulled through.

I never stated that anywhere. I believe by misinterpretation of the Islam people try to find an excuse to fight a conflict.

Quote[/b] ]You may like the idea of Dafur beeing an islamistic motivated terror thing, but it isn´t.

I don't like that. I am very concerned by seeing RELIGION being used as an excuse (most of the time this is the Islam) to fight out conflicts.

Quote[/b] ]Read some analyzes of the Dafur situation and trace the roots of the militia. They have goals I repeatedly mentioned. But those are no goals comparable to AQ-like terrorists.

I did read a lot of analyzes of the Darfur conflict and many other conflict zones. And it started out as an ETHNIC conflict

Quote[/b] ]Again, according to your reasoning every conflict in Africa would be lead by islamistic terrorists. That´s really stupid.

I do think conflicts like these are recruiting grounds for Muslim extremism. Somalia started out as a teritorial conflict too, but now it's starting to get only about religion and it's starting to become a recruiting ground for Muslim-Extremist organisations like Al-Qaeda. Religion had nothing to do with it, but when people are starting to get hopeless in a conflict they start to turn to religion because religion gives hope. Insert some Muslim clerics and the conflict will start to become RELIGIOUS.

This happened in Somalia, starting to happen in Darfur (because of the Arab government) and will hapen in other conflict zones.

But maybe I am on my one when I think that.

Quote[/b] ]And for the "definition" of terrorism. I guess there are about 200 different definitions of terrorism.

Off course just wanted to point out what the difference is between CRIMINAL acts and TERRORIST acts.

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]Are you actually suggesting that Osama was not already an extremist back when he was funnelling money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the world into the Afghan/Soviet war?

Should rephrase that. The CIA couldn't know he would turn against the US. Osama wasn't an extremist back then by the way. He was a Muslim fighter but that doesn't makes him an extremist.

[philcommando 0]

Thanks Scorpio, for your efforts. I too pray that we may never face each other in the battlefield, for what everyone wants is that the killers and their accomplices apprehended, the faith restored so that there be no ambugiuties with taking innocent lives.

I know it may be an uphill task, but it starts with one and i commend your bravery to question and challenge your authorities to do something effectively.

Each night i pray sincerly that your faith can come together and deprive criminals from making a mockery of it by condemning all others as infidels and can be exterminated at will.

But in the end, as you faith always profess.."its in the will of Allah". May the enlightenment come sooner than later, for who amongst us do not treasure the dawn of a new day, a life to breathe the fresh morning air and the joyful smiles of your love ones gathered near you?

May God have mercy on the souls of the dead and bless the coalition forces fighting on our behalf to apprehend the killers and their accomplices..amen.

[Garcia 0]

@ July 08 2005,15:55)]If You get into such details and discuss them for hours then You'll only loose the big picture.

I am afraid that some people don't see the big picture. People only see what happens in North America, Europe and the Middle East. I wanted to show that there's more and show that the problem is even bigger then we think  

How big?

Anyway, no matter where theres terrorism, and no matter who does it, there will always be terrorism...IMO, thinking that you can "remove" terrorism, is just like thinking that you can "make poverty history". It won't happen...only way to make it happen, is to solve both at the same time, by killing everyone in every poor country in the world, and kill every corrupt leader...but that wouldn't be a good solution. There's too many people on ther earth to give everyone a good life, and there will always be people who don't like the politics of the western world, and as long as their country is poor and corrupt and to weak to put any pressure on the western world to change whatever they dislike, they will turn to terrorism as the last way of telling the western world what that group of people means about their politics.

The war on terror won't work...it may, after some time, decrease the number of terrorist attacks, but I think there will always be terrorism. Though, there will (hopefuly) come something good out of it, if the countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) do get back on their feet and gets a working goverment.

If you remove poverty terrorism will still exist. I dont even think that poverty in poor countries causes them to attack rich countries. There are people even in Western World who hate their politics   I hate western world politics too! Does this make me terrorist?  

I know it will still exist...but the only real way to "remove" terrorism would be to kill every terrorists, and most terrorists come from poor countries who ain't christian, cause of the lack of law and order there...let's say you blow africa and Middle East Then you wouldn't have many poor countries left to help, which would make it easier to remove poverty, and most terrorists would be gone...

Quote[/b] ]Definition of terrorism:

Quote[/b] ]

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I actually got 2 examples of how non muslims do shit that would go under that definition, but it's never (afaik) been called terrorism.

1) I saw a documentary about this thingy in the US, where fanatic christians bombed doctors and clinics that performed abortions...that was never called terrorism IIRC, but "protesting" against abortion and "scaring" the doctors who performed abortions.

2) When a suicide bomber blows himself in Israel, it's called a terrorist act, but when Israel rolls in with tanks and shit and drives over the house to some civilian palestines in order to "search" for the ones behind the suicide bombs, it's not called a terrorist act...I would call it terrorism...sure, they should be allowed to do something cause of the terrorist attack, but by driving over the house that belongs to people that got nothing to do with the bombing, just to show the palestine people what they will do if there are more suicide bombers...

[Panda-PL- 0]

Apollo, you seem to forget one thing. Majority of international support for Africa is being robbed by corrupted goverments. The rest is taken away by local militia and clan leaders who keep fighting each other.

They then sell the stolen supplies and buy more weapons to kill each other.

You never actually thought about what is this whole idea "unity of Africa" that people like for exemple Bob Marley promoted long time ago?

Because that's what really needs to be done.

Unless you do something with the militia you're just helping them to grow stronger, buy more Ak's and RPG's.

You cannot solve the problem of Africa just by increasing funds 2x, 4x, or even 20x. This leads to nowhere.

Africa is still in most cases a barbarian continent, and no, I'm really not a racist, I have friends from Nigeria (well not close ones) and they say that they are not affraid of hunger - they are scared that one day they can go back home and meet people with AK's who'll kill them for no reason.

BTW. (OFFTOPIC) You know what? The bad Muslims and Christians there are affraid to walk out of homes in the rain - because they belive that God/Allah will strike them with a lightning.

I don't think they are bad people because of being religious - then they wouldn't feel guilty. It's more like they are bad people because they like it.

[MES-Hoot 0]

This thread is another pointless un-winable place of argument. None the less, here is my opinion:

-I understand why terrorists do what they do, but I do NOT support it. Thus, I myself if given the oppurtunity to kill every terrorist in the world, I would with no hesitation. They have radical ways of getting their point across, and now the US is using radical ways to kill them.

[SPQR 0]

The dead and their families seek justice!!

Justice or Revenge ?

There's some people who prefer to charge muslims with keeping silence about terrorist groups and their acts and non-action if not full support, swankly waving the flag of Freedom and Liberty, shouting "In God we Trust" or "God,love and save my ass" and arguing with a two cents' philosophy.

How funny and easy is putting the charge on the others, while refusing to see barbaric events made by his own side.

What are we answered, we puny and ignorant europeans, when we talk about thousands of deads, woundeds, limb-severed men, women and CHILDREN from LGB, artillery, submunitions,...

Is there any real excuse or will to better things but "Oh sorry, did it again, but as they are free now, they'd better take a life insurrance" ?

Thus, why should the peaceful muslims, far from being a minority, have to excuse themselves for crimes being done by criminals ?

Do the US excuse themselves for not having wipe out every urban gangs ? Do the light arms industries excuse when children use them to make a gory carnage in their high school ?

With their "freedom flag", they threaten muslims for not giving the names of those criminals, as if they all knew themselves. Do these freedom thinkers even know the names of the criminals in their own town ?

I'll add that there's no need to say "speak or I'll slap your face" to threaten somebody. "Whatever and no matter how compelling the justifications or reasons or conditions for terrorist acts are, a massacre in the name of Allah had been committed on innocents" is enough to threathen.

But it seems in some clever minds that it's better to die butchered by a Freedom bomb than being slaughtered by a improvized explosive device.

For me, it's all the same. Just BLOOD, GORE, GUTS, SHIT, SUFFERING, TEARS, and as consequence thanks to simple minds HATRED.

It's cowardly easy to put the stress on a supposed silence from a community, but some seem to have forgotten that AQ currently have killed more muslims than any other kinds.

While I won't drop a tear for any killed terrorist 'or Mujhadeen as they love to call themselves), between a so-called pacifist boasting hotshot and a pious muslim, I have no doubt about the one I'll kick the ass.

Better have an unstructured open-minded opinion than a structured emotional subjective one (W do it pretty well)  

A few figures :

- since the end of the offensive if March-April 2003, the USA have lost more than 1.600 killed and around 10.000 wounded (from scratch to severed limbs and worse).

- from the US Department State who finall decided to  publish them :

* 175 terrorist acts in 2003

* 655 terrorist acts in 2004

* 1907 killed and more than 7000 woundeds

* nearly 10% of these acts targeted US interests

[SPQR 0]

 They have radical ways of getting their point across, and now the US is using radical ways to kill them.

US also radically create new carreers, terrorist for some, mujhadeen for the others.

I admit that it's not the sole reason, it would be too easy. But it doesn't neither help a lot.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Apollo, you seem to forget one thing. Majority of international support for Africa is being robbed by corrupted goverments. The rest is taken away by local militia and clan leaders who keep fighting each other.

They then sell the stolen supplies and buy more weapons to kill each other.Unless you do something with the militia you're just helping them to grow stronger, buy more Ak's and RPG's.

You cannot solve the problem of Africa just by increasing funds 2x, 4x, or even 20x. This leads to nowhere.

Africa is still in most cases a barbarian continent, and no, I'm really not a racist, I have friends from Nigeria (well not close ones) and they say that they are not affraid of hunger - they are scared that one day they can go back home and meet people with AK's who'll kill them for no reason.

I never said you should give that money to them.I bet funds and organizations like 11 11 11 ,Medcin sans frontiere ,etc can invest funds pretty effeciant ,although even that doesn't elliminate some corruption. However its just an example of good causes ,even in reducing traffic kills at home you will prvent more deaths than with all the billions in anti-terrorism ,it will cost you much less and you can't expect that much corruption abroad.It's like in the case of the USA ,with the funds they put in Iraq they coulda have made a lot of chances domesticly to things like poverty ,those funds would have achieved MUCH more there than in Iraq.

Well ,this just stems out of the fact that compare to the size of the problem investment in anti-terrorism is just tottally out of proportion.I won't say that you don't need to fight terrorism ,but look at the problem with some nuancation plz.

Quote[/b] ]You never actually thought about what is this whole idea "unity of Africa" that people like for exemple Bob Marley promoted long time ago?

Because that's what really needs to be done.

Huh??   Bob Marly promoted the Rastafari movement ,it's ideal was to pull all blacks (former slave's) from the American continent and let them return to their roots.Maybe they also wanted a unified Africa ,but i think that thought is just tottaly unrealistic ,nationalism is even larger in Africa ,but it's also more tribal ,and this in itself already sparked civil wars in quite tiny African country's. (Rwanda for ex.)

Africa doesn't need unity ,the trouble of Africa is low education and high illiteracy ,wich makes it easy for tyrants to rise in a democratic system.Thats the fault of many colonizers of Africa ,they preffered to keep them (Africans) relativly uneducated ,so when many country's became independant there were to few educated people in the country to see when democracy went wrong and when they had to react.In many country's in Europe there is to much political conciousness for a tyrant to easily rise in a democratic system ,most people would understand what hes trying to do and would react.

This is also also a reason why certain African country's perform quite decent ,like Egypt ,much of the Northern Africa like Marroco and Tunesia ,and for ex. South Africa ,there was a better political establishment there ,people were often more educated (in south Africa this was the large Brittish minority) ,maybe the nation was also longer established and thus more stable ,like Egypt again where everyone is actually Egyptian ,compared to many other African country's where western country's drew their borders irrespective of ethnical compositions of certain area's.

[MES-Hoot 0]

Quote[/b] ]A few figures :

- since the end of the offensive if March-April 2003, the USA have lost more than 1.600 killed and around 10.000 wounded (from scratch to severed limbs and worse).

- from the US Department State who finall decided to publish them :

* 175 terrorist acts in 2003

* 655 terrorist acts in 2004

* 1907 killed and more than 7000 woundeds

* nearly 10% of these acts targeted US interests

Use those statistics as if you even care that those people are dead. My cusin is apart of those statistics, as so is my good friend.

If your suggesting that because of those numbers we quit, then I call you a coward. Here is a statistic for you:

3,000+ Dead in 9/11 Attacks

300,000 Iraqi bodies found in Iraq in mass-graves

Recorded 1,000,000 Iraqis Gassed, Exectured, Tortured, and Dead

This is WAR, people die.

War is ugly, but uglier is the decayed sense of having something to die for.

If we looked at WWII as seeing that we had 'x' amounts of people who were being killed, and then just said, "Whoop! Well were just little pussies and those numbers are way to high. We quit!"

That aint America, and anyone who supports shit like that can get the **** out of this country

[Bernadotte 0]

Osama wasn't an extremist back then by the way.

How do you figure?

Everything I've seen, heard and read about Osama's radical, intolerant, ultra-purist view of Islam indicates he was such an extremist back then that most Afghan freedom fighters, other than the Taliban, couldn't stand him.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Something that I'd call "political engineering" is a relict of Cold War. Hopefully US will never get involved into such dirty things anymore.

Yes, Bob Marley wanted to unite the peoples of Africa. What do You think taht'd refer to: "See they want to be a star

So they're fighting tribal war"?

Forget it, nevermind.

There is no "some" corruption. In fact the corruption and tribal mentality is what caused hunger and pooverty in this beatifull and full of natural resources continent.

Some will say that part of it is due to colonialism, but don't belive that it's the cause - that is history now, you cannot put blame on France, not anymore, so who's at fault in Your oppinion? The debts of african countries are right now being cancelled. The old anti-globalist oppinions are outdated.

[edit]Now that You added somethging it makes more sense.

But still local goverments don't give a damn about their people.

The better prosperring countries of Africa were lucky to use what occupants left them - constitutions and law systems, etc. They were smart enough not to destroy everything occupants brought.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Use those statistics as if you even care that those people are dead. My cusin is apart of those statistics, as so is my good friend.

My brother died 4 years ago in a car accident ,and is therefore apart of an even greater statistic.Have you ever cared specificly for the fate of my brother. (rest his soul )

Everyone has losses and setback ,but that doesn't change the world in any noticable way.Whats the grief worth of a mother who lost her 2 children by a drunk driver? You won't invest Billions in a war on drunk drivers ,but they kill more in the world ,they are greater terrorist ,and the mother has to sit idle while the drunkard is released from jail after some time ,and she doesn't see the state doing much to prevent more such tragedy's ,the state seems more concerned in fighting all over the world to capture some terrorists ,and even in that they seem to fail.

Quote[/b] ]If your suggesting that because of those numbers we quit, then I call you a coward. Here is a statistic for you:

3,000+ Dead in 9/11 Attacks

300,000 Iraqi bodies found in Iraq in mass-graves

Recorded 1,000,000 Iraqis Gassed, Exectured, Tortured, and Dead

I never said you should quit ,i only asked to put it in perspective ,even how grim that might be ,i don't want to minimalize the millions that died in iraq under Sadam ,but most here seem to be minimizing the millions that die in poor country's though.

Quote[/b] ]This is WAR, people die.

War is ugly, but uglier is the decayed sense of having something to die for.

Irrelevant to what we werre discussing.

Quote[/b] ]If we looked at WWII as seeing that we had 'x' amounts of people who were being killed, and then just said, "Whoop! Well were just little pussies and those numbers are way to high. We quit!"

Over 50 millions died in WW2 ,i think this isn't a conflict that was pulled out of proportion ,hence the war effort in it's volume was justified.

Quote[/b] ]That aint America, and anyone who supports shit like that can get the **** out of this country

Like you are the boss of America. HAH!

[philcommando 0]

SPQR

Quote[/b] ]Justice or Revenge ?

There's some people who prefer to charge muslims with keeping silence about terrorist groups and their acts and non-action if not full support, swankly waving the flag of Freedom and Liberty, shouting "In God we Trust" or "God,love and save my ass" and arguing with a two cents' philosophy.

Better a 2 cents philosophy than nonsensical trash comming  out of a juvenile delinquent's mouth who had earlier been slapped, now trying to act cool. I know teenagers who write better, but than, some spent several thousands of dollars on an experiment to see if monkeys can write better than shakespeare when given computers, this must have been the experiment. Cant really expect a monkey to understand what's the difference between justice and revenge anyway.

[Bernadotte 0]

If we looked at WWII as seeing that we had 'x' amounts of people who were being killed, and then just said, "Whoop! Well were just little pussies and those numbers are way to high.  We quit!"

That aint America, and anyone who supports shit like that can get the **** out of this country  

WWII ended with Victory in Europe Day on 8 May 1945, and Victory over Japan Day on 15 August 1945.

Question:  How do imagine V-T or Victory over Terrorism Day?

Where will the final battle be fought and who will die in it?

Who will sign the instrument of surrender?

If you really believe you can compare this war with WWII then please tell us what victory will look like.  

[philcommando 0]

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]WWII ended with Victory in Europe Day on 8 May 1945, and Victory over Japan Day on 15 August 1945.

Question: How do imagine V-T or Victory over Terrorism Day?

Where will the final battle be fought and who will die in it?

Who will sign the instrument of surrender?

If you really believe you can compare this war with WWII then please tell us what victory will look like.

Question:- Why ask when you already know the only answer you want?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Something that I'd call "political engineering" is a relict of Cold War. Hopefully US will never get involved into such dirty things anymore.

Yes, Bob Marley wanted to unite the peoples of Africa. What do You think taht'd refer to: "See they want to be a star

So they're fighting tribal war"?

Forget it, nevermind.

Im not that into pot smoking hippy artists.   Kidding ,i like a lot of his songs ,but i like The Doors more for that kind of music.  

Quote[/b] ]There is no "some" corruption. In fact the corruption and tribal mentality is what caused hunger and pooverty in this beatifull and full of natural resources continent.

Some will say that part of it is due to colonialism, but don't belive that it's the cause - that is history now, you cannot put blame on France, not anymore, so who's at fault in Your oppinion? The debts of african countries are right now being cancelled. The old anti-globalist oppinions are outdated.

[edit]Now that You added somethging it makes more sense.

But still local goverments don't give a damn about their people.

The better prosperring countries of Africa were lucky to use what occupants left them - constitutions and law systems, etc. They were smart enough not to destroy everything occupants brought.

Hmm i think my points made after my edit are prety much right on the mark concerning Africa.Indeed people ,in the African country's that are now more stable and developed ,were indeed wise to make use of those institutions that the colonizers left them ,the problem was not what the colonizers left them ,it wasn't all that bad ,it was only the lack of what they left im many cases.

Though i think the faulty territorial consturctions were worst of all ,most country's in wich that happened eather resulted in civil war or a certain ethnicity dominating an other ,if not cleansing.The example's are Legio over Africa ,and not only there ,in Fact Iraq is also a quite markant ex. of such an faulty construction ,as you should know and understand ,under these circumstances Saddam did not much different in that case that Paul Kagame would have done ,or in fact ye old father Stalin.(although Stalin made his own construction)Not to justify any of these monsters really!Only you have to admit the UK is quite responsible for the faulty construction that is Iraq ,so far for "its not the colonizers fault" .

The point is that it's much much easier to build a stable political system in a country of one ethnicity-culture ,than in one of many (and thats all to logical and known) ,there are many factor's what makes up if a country is going to be succesfull or not ,and some of youre points are valid to as factor's ,but you cannot deny that ethnic makeup of a country is a very important factor in politica stabilety/continuity.And the same applies for political tradition ,a country like Egypt that has been an entity for 7 millenia has it far easier to keep it's people toghether than a country only existing a few decade's.

[Bernadotte 0]

Question:- Why ask when you already know the only answer you want?

Umm... wtf are you going on about?  

I have no idea what victory in the War on Terrorism will look like, do you?

And if you don't then you are asking soldiers to fight and die for a victory that can't be described.

[Bordoy 0]

 They have radical ways of getting their point across, and now the US is using radical ways to kill them.

Aslong as the terrorists end up dead, I'm happy.

[philcommando 0]

tfi - what are you on to? Care to share your view?

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]Umm... wtf are you going on about?