British citizen arrested by fbi

[denoir 0]

Igla can distinguish between flares and engine exhausts. No amount of flares on such a slow moving target as an 747 could fool a modern day missile.

[denoir 0]

Humzzz does a strela have enough to blow up something big that isnt an airplane? I was under the impression that the warhead on those things isnt VERY strong. I heard stories of IDF F-4 Phantoms taking multiple hits from older soviet shoulder launched SAM's and still making it home. Passenger planes wouldnt be as strong as a Phantom offcourse as they are not designed to be shot at. But a building would be pretty safe right?

The assorted flight fanatics can correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know AA missiles have fragmentation warheads that combined with a directed explosion create a cone of shrapnel that perforate the fusalage of the aircraft.

Airplanes generally don't appriciate having their fuselages, engines, wings and fuel lines perforated so they tend to crash.

To take out an commerical airliner (or large military transport etc) you would ideally hit it at takeoff when it's filled with jet fuel. An Igla or similar missile would propably lock on on a jet engine. The engine and possibly the wing would be damaged. Since takeoff is a delicate procedure, it would probably be enough to get the plane to crash.

Against buildings such missiles are worthless. First of all it would probably not detonate at all since the guidance system would have nothing to lock on to. Second, if you managed to get a strong enough heat source the damage that the missile warhead would do would be superficial.

[Schoeler 0]

Yeah, I would think that a sudden and traumatic power loss on takeoff combined with a sharp reduction in aircraft handling due to damaged control surfaces would be way more than enough to bring down a large passenger aircraft.

Killagee, those dictators and terrorist organizations were anti-communist, so that makes it all OK . . . . . . . . doesn't it?

[ZIKAN 0]

Apparently this guy was born in India, but has British citizenship. He traveled to St Petersburg, Russia and got aquainted with some guy posing as an Russian army officer but who was in fact a member of the FSB.

Whats worrying is that  Russian, American and British defence experts, make claims that these types of weapons are regulary sort by dealers and terrorists, and there are many military people with access to them, that are willing  to hand them over  for a bribe.

Approximately 400+ Stinger missiles were shipped to Afghanistan to help the Mujahadeen fight the Soviet Army. Yet even today, after all that time,  they pose a  bigger threat to the very  people who originaly sent them.

It seems flights from the UK to Saudi Arabia have been suspended because of a new security threat there....

"There is credible intelligence of a serious threat to UK aviation interests in Saudi Arabia."

SKY NEWS

[EiZei 0]

Of course then you would have to figure out the _precise_ schedule of the air force one and get near the airfield. Not too easy nowadays I reckon.

Shooting down a regular passenger 747/A380 would be much more realistic.

Not exactly a pretty sight when one of these suckers go down in full load, 555 passengers.

[denoir 0]

If you want AA missiles, go to Kosovo. When I was down there KFOR retrieved four complete HAWK systems that were floating on the black market. I'm sure you could get hand fired AA launchers without any effort. I've seen a stack of 30+ Igla launchers that was found in a weapons cache. The missiles were removed as were the control systems, but I'm sure that with the right connections that you could get complete systems.

So this whole sting operation seems to me like a drop in the ocean. Not to mention that there will surely be weapons from the Iraqi military floating around for years to come. And remember: they're much closer geographically to anti-western groups.

[bn880 5]

Yeah makes sense, and also it's not at all difficult to smuggle some serious weapons on shipping containers.  I think your chances are 70% that even a tank in peices could slip in in one of those containters.   Oh wait I jsut gave it away.

[Major Gripe 0]

I agree with the purpose of this operation and I think its great that people who would wish to shoot down airliners are behind bars, but isn't using a sting operation slightly unethical? It seems like a honey trap, that the fbi agent might have encouraged the man to say things he wouldn't have normally done, merely saying them to get a sale. Don't crucify me I'm just playing Devils advocate!

[FSPilot 0]

I heard on the radio today that the investigators are unhappy with the way this operation went down. They wanted to use this dealer to catch other terrorists looking to buy manpads and the like, but instead he was just arrested.

[denoir 0]

I agree with the purpose of this operation and I think its great that people who would wish to shoot down airliners are behind bars, but isn't using a sting operation slightly unethical? It seems like a honey trap, that the fbi agent might have encouraged the man to say things he wouldn't have normally done, merely saying them to get a sale.

Since he was arrested in the US where provocation of crime is legal, there should be no problem.

In most countries it's considered entrapment because you can't prove that the person in question would have committed a crime had an opportunity not been provided by law enforcement employees. In USA however it's a legal method of catching criminals.

BBC article: What is a legal sting?

I think the difference between the American and European criminal systems is based in a fundamental difference of view on criminals.

From what I can tell the American view in general is that you have normal citiznes (good guys) and you have criminals (bad guys). Criminals are and always will be criminals so any method of catching them is OK. The European view is more that the criminals are victims of bad circumstances and can be helped to become normal citizens.

Ok, so the views above above are slightly parodized, but you get my point.

[bn880 5]

From what I can tell the American view in general is that you have normal citiznes (good guys) and you have criminals (bad guys). Criminals are and always will be criminals so any method of catching them is OK. The European view is more that the criminals are victims of bad circumstances and can be helped to become normal citizens.

Ok, so the views above above are slightly parodized, but you get my point.

Man! Again you are noticing the same things I am. It's like you read my mind sometimes all the way from Sweden. hehhe

Yes, if you listen to the way some Police officials or other people talk about criminals here, they make it sound like there are the normal people for whom cities and everything is for, and then there are criminals, they always were criminals not members of the community. Completely missing the notion that it is us, normal citizens who do something criminal for some reason. This good v.s. evil thing comes from watching too much TV I tell ya.

[Winters 1]

Why do all these threads end-up in a "US is bad" debate? And i thought this forum didnt stand for that type of thing. Oh i forgot if its against the US then it's allowed

[bn880 5]

Well I wonder why you say that, because I was talking about Canada as well.

I'll bitch about anything i see that's really wrong, about my native Poland, about where i am Canada, about the States. Anywhere. hehehe

EDIT: Edited out some stuff not to be quoted on it.

[denoir 0]

Why do all these threads end-up in a "US is bad" debate? And i thought this forum didnt stand for that type of thing. Oh i forgot if its against the US then it's allowed  

Where did you get "US bad" from? The point was "US is different" as an answer to a post that questioned how ethical a sting operation is. You have your culture and point of view. There's nothing intrinsically bad or good about it.

In this case I'd say that the US system is better. You don't start a major smuggling operations just because somebody offers you some military hardware. In other situations I think the system is wrong (like undercover cops posing as drug dealers and catching teenagers that fall into the trap).

Regardless, it's your culture, country and laws. You have the right to define them as you wish.

[Winters 1]

I don't want to say anything thats going to end up in me getting banned, but the evidence is all over the forum.

[bn880 5]

That's what happens with free speech then isn't it. People display their displeasure. Guess it's time to salute and shut up... nah I don't think so.

The simple fact is US(A) is a relatively new Nation and has a whole lot to learn, so you've gotta be able to take criticism. I can take it, if someone whines about Poland I agree with them on some things, same with Canada.

[Winters 1]

First off i was not talking about anything you said and yet you and denoir have become defensive over it. and second this is a games forum why does it always have to end in a political discussion?

You would think this forum was a place to come and discuss international politcs and police policies and the overall state of the world and not for a game.

I am not saying to shut-up and salute the flag and if you knew me you would have laughed your ass off that someone is assuming i am nothing but a flag waving patriot who belives everything his government tells him, it's actually quite the opposite.

I can take it, as you say (i have been shot by people who hate america and who tried to blow me up twice)

What i don't like is how people are STILL allowed to bash away at the US on this forum but if it gets turned around in any way that person is given post restrictions and told that type of behaviour is not tolerated. Maybe i am getting carried away as there really is no blatant bashing going on in this thread but on the whole this forum is becoming an increasingly frustrating place to visit.

[Major Gripe 0]

First off i was not talking about anything you said and yet you and denoir have become defensive over it.

What i don't like is how people are STILL allowed to bash away at the US on this forum but if it gets turned around in any way that person is given post restrictions and told that type of behaviour is not tolerated. Maybe i am getting carried away as there really is no blatant bashing going on in this thread but on the whole this forum is becoming an increasingly frustrating place to visit.

[Edited]

Take a chill pill!!

Seriously though denoir wasn't getting defensive he was trying to rationalise your inference that the discussion about the ethicality of the sting operation and how other countries interpret the use of entrapment operations differently. Don't automatically assume that when people point out the differences between the US and the rest of the world we think the US method is wrong or stupid.

If you have serious concerns about US bashing the you really should PM a moderator, thats what they are for. Although they can appear incredibly biased and naive sometimes (j/k!!) if you provide evidence of infringements of the rules implicitly or explicitly I am sure they would react appropriately. You can't just bandy about accusations without proof, that makes you as guilty as those who break forum rules.

(I'm knackered after typing that little monologue!! )

[Milkman 1]

Your not alone man, I am thinking the exact same thing Winters.

[Major Gripe 0]

Your not alone man, I am thinking the exact same thing Winters.

Well no one forces you to come here!! I'm sure there are plenty of chat groups on MSN where you can praise America, but many people on here are under the illusion that a discussion involves at least two different points of view. I'll give you the fact there are idiots on here, but for the most part I've found that those that disagree with the US view tend to do it calmly and rationally, I'm disappointed you think otherwise.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Your not alone man, I am thinking the exact same thing Winters.

Bah, you are so over sensitive. Now why is that? Why are you so convinced that people hate you and that they think that USA sucks?

Sounds to me either like a very Soviet-inspired "enemy of the people" argument or a bad case of inferiority complex.

I'll just post the same cartoon that I always post when this type of whining starts

[Milkman 1]

Your not alone man, I am thinking the exact same thing Winters.

Well no one forces you to come here!! I'm sure there are plenty of chat groups on MSN where you can praise America, but many people on here are under the illusion that a discussion involves at least two different points of view. I'll give you the fact there are idiots on here, but for the most part I've found that those that disagree with the US view tend to do it calmly and rationally, I'm disappointed you think otherwise.  

No one forces me to come here, that is correct, but I expect to be treated just as nicely as the next fellow, no matter what forum it is. I have no problem with two different points of view, but when one is overwhelmingly larger than the other it is no fun. And it isn't just this forum; it’s the Flashpoint community as a whole. I never expected to get flamed and harassed by other players on a server. And I sure as hell didn't expect to get banned from a server just because I was an American. But what bothers me the most, was when one incident. A co-op server I had enjoyed playing on for over 6 months was all ended when someone asked me where I was from. They squad that ran it were always nice to me, all the regular players were good friends, but as soon as the word "American" was typed, I was instantly shunned. Now all I get is shit from them, I just can't play with them anymore, its too stressful.  

[denoir 0]

I sure as hell didn't expect to get banned from a server just because I was an American. But what bothers me the most, was when one incident. A co-op server I had enjoyed playing on for over 6 months was all ended when someone asked me where I was from. They squad that ran it were always nice to me, all the regular players were good friends, but as soon as the word "American" was typed, I was instantly shunned. Now all I get is shit from them, I just can't play with them anymore, its too stressful.  

Well, then they are racists, morons etc and you should not bother with them. You have idiots all over the world.

Don't however confuse people's criticism of your government as an attack on American nationals. You don't like Saddam Hussein, but you have nothing against the Iraqi people, right? Same thing here.

Your president started humping the world from behind like a horny rabbit, all in the name of "America" so people get a little jumpy. And some unfortunately can't differentiate between individuals and government.

It's unfair, yes. Exactly because you have experienced that, you should not make the same mistake as them and stereotype every non-American that has a political opinion that isn't in agreement with your country's.

And finally there is the question of cultural difference. It's a fact that we're different. Europeans and Americans on average have some differences in the view on the world. One must recognize that and respect the other culture. That doesn't mean that the various differences can't be debated in a friendly manner.

[Winters 1]

Lets just drop it, your not getting the point i was attempting to make. You just want to brush it aside and say i am whining. I was just asking why does it always have to end in a debate about policies when this is a game forum, but feel free to post your silly cartoons all you want.

[denoir 0]

Sure. I'm brushing it aside because I think indeed you are whining.

But never mind, what was relevant to this topic was the discussion of sting operations and that they're treated differently in different countries.