The four horseman of the apocalypse, now

[Longinius 1]

"Ok i will. But what i can tell you right know is that if you've been in one of those meetings and literally seen people with one smaller leg then the other growing in a matter of second to be perfect. Or old people suffering from arthritis to only a few moments later jump up and down like something even a monkey would find hard to do. Is quite amazing! So seing it kinda makes it eaiser to belive, don't you think? So whats my point? If you'd be really interested and curious (oh and) doubtfull the best thing i can recommend is visiting one of those meetings, like i and some friends did."

There are two explenations to this.

1. They were faking the sickness.

2. Their believed they were well, and therefor felt better. The human mind is a powerful thing, and it is a fact that many people feel sicker than they actually are. Its also fact that with support from your community, you can overcome deceases that you wouldnt be able to handle on your own.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

It all comes down to if you are a beliver or not. Some atheist may fin this hard to belive. And will as allways try to explain it logically. Thats the way it works

A little quote from yesturday

[Oligo 1]

Ok i will. But what i can tell you right know is that if you've been in one of those meetings and literally seen people with one smaller leg then the other growing in a matter of second to be perfect. Or old people suffering from arthritis to only a few moments later jump up and down like something even a monkey would find hard to do. Is quite amazing! So seing it kinda makes it eaiser to belive, don't you think? So whats my point? If you'd be really interested and curious (oh and) doubtfull the best thing i can recommend is visiting one of those meetings, like i and some friends did.

About that leg-growth thingy: I would love to see x-rays of the leg before and after the healing. Even better would be to feed the patients some mildly radioactive bone-precursors before the healing so that new bone could be distinguished from the old bone in the x-ray. Unfortunately spiritual healers never want to provide such evidence of their genuineness. Ironically enough, such evidence would definitely increase the amount of people attending the meetings.

About arthritis: How do you know they really had arthritis? How do you know they didn't just imagine that they got better?

I also must point out that as a scientist, nothing would thrill me more than the discovery of previously unknown phenomena like spiritual healing. Imagine, a completely new thing to dissect, analyze and exploit.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Still waiting for this 'tons of evidence' that isn't made up or faked at all.....

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

Still waiting for this 'tons of evidence' that isn't made up or faked at all.....

What are you waiting for? I gave you a better sugestion "If you'r really interested and curious (oh and) doubtfull the best thing i can recommend is visiting one of those meetings, like i and some friends did." I could share something form my personal life. It's not a big deal but still, in a way ment alot to me. (cant be botherd to write it down as you will insist in that it's false.)

Back to the "tons" of evidence. When i wrote that i assumed that i'd find it and i probably would. Without even looking i happend to see a couple of videos But "as miracles is nonsens" The testimonies would not server it's purpose. (To convince you)

[denoir 0]

The good thing about scientific documentation is that it does not require a leap of faith and you can back-track all the results for yourself. You measure and record. The goals of science are to explore and understand the world.

Had there been such a thing as religion-induced spontaneous healing, it would have been very well scientifically documented. There would have been recorded measurements.

Not surprisingly, there are none. Religion should be confined to the spiritual world and not mess with earthly matters. When it does it's very transparent that its claims are not real.

Let religion stick to the healing of mental issues and leave earthly matters to earthly powers such as doctors, pharmacists and bioengineers.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

Allright here we ago again

I was eleven years old and i was about to exit a jeweller shop when my thumb got stuck in the (im not sure what it's called) hinge of the door and it closed. It was one of those very thick security doors. So my thumb was all messed up. I think i broke parts of it but the worst thing was that it was literally rottening (sp) And there was not much to do with it. They made some smaller operation on it but nothing really happend. So a couple weeks later. Still with my thumb in the exact same condition i find myself sitting in one of those meetings in finland. And the preacher starts praying. I started feeling this warmth in my hand and then she, all the sudden says that there's someone here with a infected thumb, and God is gonna heal you. Of course i was getting a little nervous cos' i had no idea what was going on. But anyway, so the meeting ends and we all went home. The very next all the pain was gone. Only a couple of days later my thumb was perfectly fine.

You may come to whatever conclusion you want. But i've also realized that this debate isn't going anywhere.

If you choose not to belive there really isn't anything i can do about it.

SpeedyDonkey out  

Edit: A few typos

[theavonlady 2]

After reading SpeedDonkey's story, I now see a new more literal meaning in Tovarish's avatar:

[Wasrad 0]

uhh....PMs anyone?

Who the hell cares about preplanned hokey religious meetings?

GO join the 700 club.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tovarish-

Quote[/b] ]Wait, let me get this straight....because you want to believe in a supernatural being that cares about you but haven't quite settled on exactly who/what, you think your life is fuller than that of those who've given up on the concept alltogether?....allrighty.....Anyways i think I'll leave this one alone, religious discussions lead to holy flamewars and locked threads.

Tovarish- Next time READ what i write before replying. As i explicitly stated i dont believe in a supernatural being and the very idea of 'supernatural' phenomena seems to me to be counter-intuitive and ill defined.

I called myself a spiritual atheist partly to annoy cuban canadian hardcore atheists and partly because thats what i feel like at this point in my life. Maybe its a vague reference to the mystical energy that may or may not run through all things or to a unified theory of everything (which seems like a pretty damn spiritual idea to me) , a sense of pervasive mystery lurking in the unexplained and those many things in general that we dont yet know (ie most stuff in the universe) that often seems more attractive to me than the cold hard explaination or maybe im simply an atheist who really likes drinking strong slow acting poison (godot help me).

I dont see why i should tiptoe around remorseless atheists when i am mostly one myself but on the other hand im not going to apologise for promoting open mindedness in matters spiritual and phenomena not yet accepted by mainstream science (scientists are prejudiced anyway just like all other people). In this i think i must differ with Denoirs previous statement (and ice cold scandinavian attitude to religion ). It is careless arrogance to think that western doctors today know all there is to be known about medicine and healing (barring specific technological improvements) . How can you be certain the various religions have nothing to teach the world of medicine? I have already mentioned in passing studies that suggest otherwise and there are others out there.

The mind can exert a strong influence on many aspects of physical health and beliefs are a primary force in the mind.

I think for instance a patients mental health and ways of thinking could ideally play a significantly greater part in treatment than is the case today. It is known (if not scientifically proven in studies that i know of) that peoples faith can help them through disease and traumatic incidents where those with less faith or who are depressed may die. Dont you think atheists owe it to themselves to try to isolate the thought patterns that cause this apparent difference(mental conditioning or whatever) and maybe incorporate a secular version in treatment? I think its worth a try.

We really know very little about the human mind and body, let alone the rest of the universe.

Having said that i have no faith in phony 'faith healer' magicians who magic away peoples illness in a flash. SpeedyDonkey, go back to one of these 'healed' people in 6 months time and i think youll be unpleasantly surprised. Numerous psychological studies have shown how easy it is to fool the human mind with persuasion, peer pressure etc.

May you walk with the spirit brothers

[Tovarish 0]

<snip>

You know what? I share 99% of your views, I just got annoyed at being called an ape with an empty life who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Let's leave it at that, before Wasrad unleashes his Capslock key on us again

[Wasrad 0]

and Ill do it too....

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

@ speedydonkey

One time I was walking around the woods and I found an invisible pink unicorn.  I caught it and now it lives in my backyard.  It lays golden eggs.  If you believe in it, you might get one too.  I really do have an invisible pink unicorn in my back garden, honest.

If you don't believe me then you are obviously choosing not to believe.

Do you see anything wrong with the above story and any links to your own experience?  I'm hoping I wont have to explain why personal experience is not valid evidence.

Quote[/b] ]I called myself a spiritual atheist partly to annoy cuban canadian hardcore atheists and partly because thats what i feel like at this point in my life. Maybe its a vague reference to the mystical energy that may or may not run through all things or to a unified theory of everything (which seems like a pretty damn spiritual idea to me) , a sense of pervasive mystery lurking in the unexplained and those many things in general that we dont yet know (ie most stuff in the universe) that often seems more attractive to me than the cold hard explaination or maybe im simply an atheist who really likes drinking strong slow acting poison (godot help me).

Having a deep sense of wonder at the unexplained and at the vastness of the universe is not synonymous with spitituality.  What cold hard explanation are you talking about?  We don't know all the facts yet, we are still finding out things about the universe etc.  The people who think we have all the 'facts' are the spiritualists.  We don't.  

Quote[/b] ]I dont see why i should tiptoe around remorseless atheists when i am mostly one myself but on the other hand im not going to apologise for promoting open mindedness in matters spiritual and phenomena not yet accepted by mainstream science

There's a difference between open mindedness and crackpot lunacy.  Theres nothing wrong with investigating 'spiritual' or 'supernatural' phenomena - as long as you follow the scientific method.  A good example would be the PSI experiments at the University of Edinburgh, testing (scientifically) telepathy and human PSI abilities (if any.)

A bad example would be believing any random person who claims to have psychic powers just because they look the part.  James 'the amazing' Randi can do the whole fortune telling trick as well as anyone, but he does it to show what a sham it is.

Quote[/b] ]It is known (if not scientifically proven in studies that i know of)

Then it isn't known, its merely a rumour.

Quote[/b] ]

Having said that i have no faith in phony 'faith healer' magicians who magic away peoples illness in a flash. SpeedyDonkey, go back to one of these 'healed' people in 6 months time and i think youll be unpleasantly surprised. Numerous psychological studies have shown how easy it is to fool the human mind with persuasion, peer pressure etc

Good.  You're right.

I think you're just coming at this the wrong way.  Atheism or Science dont say that we know everything, merely that without evidence, there is no reason to think something is true.

Denoir is absolutely right, however.  If faith healing really did work, it would be a huge boon to mankind and would lead to all kinds of new fields of medicine and research.  Sadly, it doesnt.  The first person to demonstrate faith healing actually working would be at the very least incredibly famous and very probably extremely rich.  Yet noone will come forward and demonstrate it, NOT for want of researchers and scientists asking them to.  I think James Randi still has a million dollar prize for any supernatural healing demonstrated to him.

I'd love to be wrong on this.  It'd be great if people could heal diseases with their minds.  They can't.

[Wasrad 0]

HEY LOOK CHECK IT OUT

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=32595

JUST FOR YOU!!!!!

[Harnu 0]

What was the last God debate closed for? It's been a long time...

edit:

Whoops nevermind. Missed it when I searched, it was closed for spam and flaming.

[ale2999 0]

@ speedydonkey

One time I was walking around the woods and I found an invisible pink unicorn.  I caught it and now it lives in my backyard.  It lays golden eggs.  If you believe in it, you might get one too.  I really do have an invisible pink unicorn in my back garden, honest.

If you don't believe me then you are obviously choosing not to believe.

Do you see anything wrong with the above story and any links to your own experience?  I'm hoping I wont have to explain why personal experience is not valid evidence.

Quote[/b] ]I called myself a spiritual atheist partly to annoy cuban canadian hardcore atheists and partly because thats what i feel like at this point in my life. Maybe its a vague reference to the mystical energy that may or may not run through all things or to a unified theory of everything (which seems like a pretty damn spiritual idea to me) , a sense of pervasive mystery lurking in the unexplained and those many things in general that we dont yet know (ie most stuff in the universe) that often seems more attractive to me than the cold hard explaination or maybe im simply an atheist who really likes drinking strong slow acting poison (godot help me).

Having a deep sense of wonder at the unexplained and at the vastness of the universe is not synonymous with spitituality.  What cold hard explanation are you talking about?  We don't know all the facts yet, we are still finding out things about the universe etc.  The people who think we have all the 'facts' are the spiritualists.  We don't.  

Quote[/b] ]I dont see why i should tiptoe around remorseless atheists when i am mostly one myself but on the other hand im not going to apologise for promoting open mindedness in matters spiritual and phenomena not yet accepted by mainstream science

There's a difference between open mindedness and crackpot lunacy.  Theres nothing wrong with investigating 'spiritual' or 'supernatural' phenomena - as long as you follow the scientific method.  A good example would be the PSI experiments at the University of Edinburgh, testing (scientifically) telepathy and human PSI abilities (if any.)

A bad example would be believing any random person who claims to have psychic powers just because they look the part.  James 'the amazing' Randi can do the whole fortune telling trick as well as anyone, but he does it to show what a sham it is.

Quote[/b] ]It is known (if not scientifically proven in studies that i know of)

Then it isn't known, its merely a rumour.

Quote[/b] ]

Having said that i have no faith in phony 'faith healer' magicians who magic away peoples illness in a flash. SpeedyDonkey, go back to one of these 'healed' people in 6 months time and i think youll be unpleasantly surprised. Numerous psychological studies have shown how easy it is to fool the human mind with persuasion, peer pressure etc

Good.  You're right.

I think you're just coming at this the wrong way.  Atheism or Science dont say that we know everything, merely that without evidence, there is no reason to think something is true.

Denoir is absolutely right, however.  If faith healing really did work, it would be a huge boon to mankind and would lead to all kinds of new fields of medicine and research.  Sadly, it doesnt.  The first person to demonstrate faith healing actually working would be at the very least incredibly famous and very probably extremely rich.  Yet noone will come forward and demonstrate it, NOT for want of researchers and scientists asking them to.  I think James Randi still has a million dollar prize for any supernatural healing demonstrated to him.

I'd love to be wrong on this.  It'd be great if people could heal diseases with their minds.  They can't.

when I was in a coma with the doctor waiting for me to die and my parents praying I couldnt use my strong will too "heal myself" It was simply a miracle. If ppl let God move he manifest in ppl lifes in small and big things. God is as real to me as u r real to me, u can say that personal experience doesnt count for you, but it counts for me and that is what it matter. the only thing I know is that I am not gonna be able to convince u, but I hope that the Lord will do that.

[Wasrad 0]

Oh damn well, you @#$* have gone and hijacked my thread.

yeah, and people can move mountains with faith the size of a mustard seed?

One thing about religion, christianity specifically, that bugs the ever loving shit out of me is all these pictures of this pale white guy who supposidly was a carpenter in the middle east.

99% of the christain population wouldnt know Jesus if he was standing right in front of them.

Ill start having faith in christianity when it actually finds out who Jesus Christ was. Until then, it is all hogwash that people use for political and financial gain, just as it has always been.

[denoir 0]

when I was in a coma with the doctor waiting for me to die and my parents praying I couldnt use my strong will too "heal myself" It was simply a miracle. If ppl let God move he manifest in ppl lifes in small and big things. God is as real to me as u r real to me, u can say that personal experience doesnt count for you, but it counts for me and that is what it matter. the only thing I know is that I am not gonna be able to convince u, but I hope that the Lord will do that.

Let me ask you this: The brain has tremendous regenerating abilities. Are you sure that it did not restore itself?

Or perhaps it was a question of time. Perhaps it was a swelling that had to go down before your neural paths could function properly.

Or let me give you another scenario: Say that some of the body's many defence mechanisms started producing hormones which in turn stimulated the neural connections in your brain which resulted in you waking up from the coma.

Those are just three possible explanations out of countless that do not require the intervention of any divine power. The fact that the doctors didn't understand the situation correctly does not imply that there was no explanation to it. The brain is a very complex organ which we don't understand at all too good. Lack of understanding does not however automatically require some divine para-normal forces at work.

In old Swedish mythology thunder was explained as the god Thor riding in his carrige across the sky. Identical mistake there - associating things that you do not understand to paranormal phenomena.

Ok, if we take another approach. The claim that you and others are stating is something like this:

God hears the prayers and because he is a good God he steps in and helps to heal.

By that logic religious people should be less sick and should live longer than atheists. Let's compare Sweden with Poland.

Sweden is one of the most atheist dense countries in Europe while Poland's population is one of the most religious.

Life expectancy

Sweden: 79.84 years

Poland: 73.66 years

Infant mortality rate

Sweden: 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births

Poland: 9.17 deaths/1,000 live births

Total fertility rate

Sweden: 1.54 children born/woman

Poland: 1.37 children born/woman

So, how can you explain that? The Polish people pray a lot more than Swedish people do and yet we have a longer life expectancy, a lower infant mortality rate and a higher fertility rate.

Now, Poland is a European country so the values are similar. Compare it to some small, highly religious African country. Or even better, compare today's value with those that were 300 years ago, when everybody was religious.

[Commander-598 0]

Quote[/b] ]In old Swedish mythology

Don't you mean Norse mythology?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]In old Swedish mythology

Don't you mean Norse mythology?

Yeah, old Nordic. That the vikings believed in

[Major Fubar 0]

Regardless of whether you believe in religion, surely if people can draw healing power from their faith, it can't be a bad thing...

I guess the response to this is all the horrible things people have done to each other in the name of religion, but let's face it: even if no religion existed in the world, those same people would still be killing each other over skin colour, owndership of land etc. etc.

[Oligo 1]

I really liked that statistical presentation, Denoir. But your statistical data does not imply that spiritual healing does not exist, it merely implies that the healing powers of god are weaker than those of swedish doctors.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Ahh, but Christian dogma dictates that God is A) omnipotent, B) omniscient, and C) infallible. So, if a nationalized social health care system can beat the alleged creator of the universe itself, then what are we supposed to think about 2000 years of hype? Has God lost his edge? Or did his advertising consultants just outdo themselves?  

edit: or it could mean that I've been wrong all along and those Swedish commie bastards actually do have the right idea

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]I really liked that statistical presentation, Denoir. But your statistical data does not imply that spiritual healing does not exist, it merely implies that the healing powers of god are weaker than those of swedish doctors.

Lol Oligo. Damn heretic.

[denoir 0]

No but seriously, I understand that personal experiences can be a powerful motivator for believing something. It does however not necessarily mean that what you experienced or think you experienced is a universal fact. I think that is the part that leads to faulty cause-effect theories.

I think that religion indeed has its uses as a powerful psychological motivator (for both good and bad). I respect that people have personal beliefs. Religion should however be very careful not have any ambitions in secular matters. It's very counter productive for the religion itself since in that domain its claims can easily be dismissed by simple scientific observation.