Before wwii

[DracoPaladore 0]

I was just wondering about the events before the second world war. If the allied forces, or those who signed Versaille, knew of the rising power of the German forces and the combining of both Germany and Austria, as well as the occupation of Czhecoslavakia(sp, loc? Errkk), why did they do nothing? They could have been able to knock out the nazi war machine before it was at full strength? As well as the fact that they were exceeding their abilities of the treaty. Also, why did they not foresee some of Hitlers meanings and what he was going to do in Mein Kempf?

[brgnorway 0]

When many countries lost almost whole generations in WWI I suppose it's understandable that one tried every available means to avoid another catastrophic war. Whom would have thought it would happen again?

...............which by the way is a good reason to keep on fighting facism in all it's nuances.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

My advice is to read a good book about it. Its great to be able to speak with the benefit of hindsight but unfortunatly people in the 1930s didnt have that.

The first World War was the most devastating thing that had happened to France, Britain and the other powers so they were understandably reluctant to engage in another war against the same country they had fought only 20 years earlier. People genuinely believed that peace was possible with nazi Germany. Except old Winston Churchill of course, but then people thought he was a warmonger before they saw for themselves the truth of Hitlers Germany.

Not wishing to crudely introduce contemporary politics into this thread but thats probably one important reason Winston Churchill is such a popular figure among neo-conservatives. They see in him a man who stuck to his unpopular beliefs, was accused of being a war monger but was vindicated by history. Something to think about anyway. Do we know enough about the rising powers of todays world to correctly identify the true threat?

I dont think much has changed in many ways...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I was just wondering about the events before the second world war. If the allied forces, or those who signed Versaille, knew of the rising power of the German forces and the combining of both Germany and Austria, as well as the occupation of Czhecoslavakia(sp, loc? Errkk), why did they do nothing? They could have been able to knock out the nazi war machine before it was at full strength? As well as the fact that they were exceeding their abilities of the treaty. Also, why did they not foresee some of Hitlers meanings and what he was going to do in Mein Kempf?

A name and a concept: Chamberlain and Appeasement

[brgnorway 0]

Sorry, but there is a point to be made in what you wrote:

Quote[/b] ]Not wishing to crudely introduce contemporary politics into this thread............

[DracoPaladore 0]

A name and a concept: Chamberlain and Appeasement

I know about the Appeasement than Chamberlen had, and the fact Hitler turned to Mussolini right after the meeting and declared the leader of France and Britain to be worms. Or, if I remember correctly: "I have seen my enemies, and they are worms."

Thanks for the info John. But couldn't they have been able to slow down the resources, or do anything? Couldn't they see the war coming as they had in WWI?

While the Appeasement just pulled wool over the British and French eyes, did no one else see the rising facism, the pacts between Italy, Germany, Russia, and Japan(all whome were facist governments with rising armies and machines, as well as seeking imperialistic control over East, West Europe and Asia continents) and did Hitler's book not outline the entire detail of his rising operation and his want for total control?

While they were understandably relunctent to enter another war, couldn't they have just sanctioned or control the incoming-outgoing resources of Germany without trouble? The German military, while rising, was still at a low 100-200 thousand soldiers as well as a small armoured force and a scanty navy.

I guess you are right ITYJW, we know too much to the point that we can look back and say why without thinking the peoples feelings and ideals during the period. Heck, it's hard enough now.

[Bernadotte 0]

If the allied forces, or those who signed Versaille, knew of the rising power of the German forces and the combining of both Germany and Austria, as well as the occupation of Czhecoslavakia(sp, loc? Errkk), why did they do nothing?

There was a huge amount of injustice packed into the Treaty of Versaille.  With the stroke of a few Allied pens, thousands of miles of  borders were moved, suddenly displacing millions of people and creating nations that had never existed.

The Allies watched for 2 decades to see what would become of the post-WWI mess.  I believe that many considered Hitler's early agressions to be inevitable outcomes of that mess that in a way had to be accepted.  JFK's dad, as US ambassador to Britain, was actually one of the stronger voices of appeasement.  He once said, "Sure Hitler stinks, so you hold your nose with your one hand.  Meanwhile, you can do a lot of good business with the other hand."

[DracoPaladore 0]

Beleive it or not, I'm watching that documentry/mini-series as I type. I just found it. I guess it will answer some.

I understand how unfair and unjust the treaty of Versaille was. Germany, in my opinion, didn't deserve such harsh punishment that histroy has shown that wasn't set off by them. The assination of Franz Furdinad, considering it was a spark, was assinated by the Czech(off the top of my head) terrorist group Black Hand. And the fact they had to pay off all war debt and lost much territory as well as minimize everything they had. Etc.

But could they not see this coming as they did the first war? Did they not prepare? While the Rhineleand was protected, did they not think that they were still a threat?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Dracopaladore,

for not being able to spell Czechoslovakia, the nation that BIS is proud to represent, you are permanently banned.

now back on topic.

maybe the people were in denial after WW1? It was dubbed "The War to end all wars" due to its brutality and scale. maybe people had fear growing inside, but chose to deny it.

and i was joking about perm ban.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Dracopaladore,

for not being able to spell Czechoslovakia, the nation that BIS is proud to represent, you are permanently banned.

now back on topic.

maybe the people were in denial after WW1? It was dubbed "The War to end all wars" due to its brutality and scale. maybe people had fear growing inside, but chose to deny it.

and i was joking about perm ban.

-Shucks, was just getting used to spelling it too :P

I could see why they might have been in denial. It is very much understandable. But, also concerning the rise of Hitler, could they also not see what Hitler was planning for? As well as the fact that his book was considered one of the most read literature during its time period, that they did not see what was going to happen? Especially his plans for the extermination of the gypsies, gays, and the Jewish people? Especially with the

judenfrei

jeden-(German for clean. Cannot remember)

Also, did they not see the strong Racist and genocidal ideals supported by the Nazi party and other Facist parties in other parts of the world?

[FSPilot 0]

The same reason we had so much trouble convincing people about the war in Iraq (NO, I'm not trying to turn this into an Iraq conversation. I'll ignore any replies on that subject). The evidence they had "mein kampf" and military buildups weren't enough to warrant taking him out of power. After all, who are we to say he can't have a military?

[DracoPaladore 0]

After all, who are we to say he can't have a military?

I'm guessing this is the point where the League of Nations fell apart? I thought the Treaty of Versaille was only allowing only 100,000 soldiers plus a navy only bred to defend as well as no air force.

Was the LON or world powers not willed enough to stop it?

[Bernadotte 0]

Also, did they not see the strong Racist ideals supported by the Nazi party and other Facist parties in other parts of the world?

Certainly America was in no position to save Europe from racism.  US picture postcards in those days often displayed scenes from lynchings featuring black men hanged from trees or burned at the stake.

[sanctuary 19]

Remember of the organisation " League of Nations " which were created in 1920 after being discussed in 1919

Its purpose was to asssure integrity and security of each state, but it was in fact a way for the victorious  WW1 allied to continue their domination in a legal and permanent way

It was in some words the UN father ;)

So this un-usefull organisation was certainly one of the factor responsible to the apathy of Europe in front of nazism

They were certain their League of Nations could solve the problem without war , this confidence made them more blind than they were

But the League of Nations interest was mostly nullified at its start

problem : the USA didnt participate in it (they were at the origin of idea of the creation of the SDN) for political reason , USA refused the "equality" feeling that the SDN wanted to give in each country (loss of power on them) and they didnt want to be involved again in internal war in Europe (that was the reason why USA refused to go to war with the allied versus germany in 1939)

Second problem , the SDN gave mandate to big nations to rule several other country because they thought that those countries were not able to rule themselves

And in those countries , the feeling of being colonised was enforced by those mandates

And with the time it proved its uncapacity to solve problems , just use a search engine about the League of Nations  , and you will find its history and the reason of its un-usefullness , as there is too much to write here about this mistake known as League of Nations

In comparison with the League of Nations , UN is an heaven of usefullness.

[FSPilot 0]

After all, who are we to say he can't have a military?

I'm guessing this is the point where the League of Nations fell apart? I thought the Treaty of Versaille was only allowing only 100,000 soldiers plus a navy only bred to defend as well as no air force.

Was the LON or world powers not willed enough to stop it?

If I remember right he did it in secret, but I could be wrong. Either that or the treaty wasn't enforced, which is another thing we saw in Iraq ironically.

[edc 0]

I think Germany got around many of the requirements, through loop-holes kinda. Like, there was a limit on something w/ artillery, it said nothing about rockets, so Germany built rockets. Also, many weapons/vehicles that were in reality in the military, were said to be used for police business. And some planes, that were used for mail delieveries, were some of the first to drop Nazi parachuters into the surrounding countries.

[joltan 0]

There is no Czechoslovakia (anymore). Remember - Slowakia seperated from Czechoslovakia a few years ago thus creating two seperate nations: the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Prague is in the Czech Republic, so is BIS.

;)

[-TU--33ker 0]

Especially with the

judenfrei

jeden-(German for clean. Cannot remember)

The assination of Franz Furdinad, considering it was a spark, was assinated by the Czech(off the top of my head) terrorist group Black Hand.

judenfrei means jew-free, "without Jews"

and Ferdinand was assasinated in Sarajewo (Bosnia) by a Serbian student.

the German people couldn't stand the humiliation caused by the Versailles Treaty. One of many reasons why he was so popular with the Germans was, that he didn't giva a damn about it. Germany wasn't allowed to test modern military equipment like planes. So the Germans went to Russia to train their pilots there. The Soviet Union was the first country which had diplomatic contacts with Germany after WW1. but this already happened before the Nazis have taken power in Germany.

[DracoPaladore 0]

$33ker @ June 22 2003,13:31)]

Quote[/b] ]

judenfrei means jew-free, "without Jews"

I beleive there was another saying "Clean of jews". But that isn't really important at the moment.

Quote[/b] ]

and Ferdinand was assasinated in Sarajewo (Bosnia) by a Serbian student.

How silly of me. I should have known that. Thank you very much.

Quote[/b] ]

the German people couldn't stand the humiliation caused by the Versailles Treaty. One of many reasons why he was so popular with the Germans was, that he didn't giva a damn about it. Germany wasn't allowed to test modern military equipment like planes. So the Germans went to Russia to train their pilots there. The Soviet Union was the first country which had diplomatic contacts with Germany after WW1. but this already happened before the Nazis have taken power in Germany.

This is great. Thanks for the info. It's starting to make sense. My Canadian History teachers didn't inform us much on information like this(too busy focusing on "more important things". I however beleive that all history is equal, and was upset that they did not tell us certain things. But I could see why with limited time, however).

Thanks everyone. You guys are a great help as always.

[PitViper 0]

Dracopaladore,

for not being able to spell Czechoslovakia, the nation that BIS is proud to represent, you are permanently banned.

Perhaps you should ban yourself, because they are from the Czech republic, not Czechoslavakia.

The U.S warned France about implementing the Versailles Treaty.

The U.S should not have entangled itself in recurring European self-implosion.. in either 1917 or 1942 imo.  It has only brought us, in conclusion, solitary patches of american gravestones on faraway soil far from home.

[DracoPaladore 0]

The U.S should have entangled itself in recurring European self-implosion.. in either 1917 or 1942 imo.  It has only brought us, in conclusion, solitary patches of american gravestones on foreign soil far from home.

Should or Shouldn't halve? Your last sentance kind of cotnradicts what you said about the idea of the US's involment.

If they didn't, I beleive that the war would have been over longer than it had.

Even if you meant either, please keep the discussion to the causes.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]It has only brought us, in conclusion, solitary patches of american gravestones on foreign soil far from home.

If the US soldiers had not gone to europe the japanese would have nuked you to bits. Unfortunally the material fell into US (Canada was soooo close ) hands and the Japanese got nuked with the material they were meant to get from germany. So better be thankfull.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Quote[/b] ]It has only brought us, in conclusion, solitary patches of american gravestones on foreign soil far from home.

If the US soldiers had not gone to europe the japanese would have nuked you to bits. Unfortunally the material fell into US (Canada was soooo close ) hands and the Japanese got  nuked with the material they were meant to get from germany. So better be thankfull.

Unfortunatly, it was through Canada that Russia received the information of the Nuclear warhead blueprints. RCMP after realising this was able to round up to 20 Russian spies and interrogate them in the later 40's, early 50's. Unfortunatly, they were too late.

I'm wondering though, what it must have been like to stand in the presence of Hitler. I've heard somewheres that a anti-nazi member actually stood up and gave the "straight salute"(I don't know the proper name for it) when he finished the speech. The Prof said that Hitler was a man who was able to hypnotise(not literally) and rally people no matter how much they hated him.

Well, thats what my History teacher said anyways.

[PitViper 0]

Quote[/b] ]It has only brought us, in conclusion, solitary patches of american gravestones on foreign soil far from home.

If the US soldiers had not gone to europe the japanese would have nuked you to bits. Unfortunally the material fell into US (Canada was soooo close ) hands and the Japanese got  nuked with the material they were meant to get from germany. So better be thankfull.

be thankful for what? that they died in a war that was none of our business?   or that you tried to take over Europe?

[DracoPaladore 0]

be thankful for what?  That you tried to take over Europe?

What does this have to do with Nuclear warheads? And guys, WTH does this have to do with the start of the war? Try and stay on topic.