The Iraq Thread 2

[bn880 5]

It still looks like most were casualties of war.

[theavonlady 2]

I don't get it, what's the special problem.

No problem whatsover. Just like there's no problem in the US killing a few thousand Iraqis to get rid of the guys that killed a few hundred thousand of them.

Like you said, no problem. As you wish.

[denoir 0]

What made you think the report is about war casualties?

Because about a week ago I read a military report on the subject where they said that they thought that there would be between 600,000-700,000 people buried in mass graves in Iraq, most of them from the Iran-Iraq war.

They have dug up something like 10,000 bodies so far. The higher number was what they expect to find.

And that makes sense to me. You can't kill a million people whithout doing it systematically, and there are no suggestions that Saddam did that. And that's the diference between genocide and mass murder.

Without systematically killing people there is no way you can reach a over a half million dead.

[theavonlady 2]

Without systematically killing people there is no way you can reach a over a half million dead.

Over 20 years? It's not unfeasible.

Anyway, I updated the number when I saw the report online.

[bn880 5]

I don't get it, what's the special problem.

No problem whatsover. Just like there's no problem in the US killing a few thousand Iraqis to get rid of the guys that killed a few hundred thousand of them.

Like you said, no problem. As you wish.

Total bullshit, there is no proof this was genocide! Even if 2 people are found killed for political/treason reasons, it does not make it genocide of half a million!

There is barely anything in that article, here is the actual part pertaining to Iraq:

Quote[/b] ](CBS) While no evidence of weapons of mass destruction has yet been found in Iraq, evidence of mass murder is everywhere.

The evidence? Mass graves scattered throughout the country where families of victims have been trying to find the remains of some 300,000 Iraqis who disappeared during the Saddam regime.

Forensic experts hope DNA samples from the graves eventually may provide the clues to just who these victims were before Saddam consigned them to unmarked graves. Correspondent Scott Pelley reports. A mass grave found after the war in al-Hilla, south of Baghdad, is a mountain of misery.

When word got out, families swarmed over the grave. There were about 2,000 bodies. One by one, they wrestled with the dead -- searching for something, anything familiar -- a sweater that might have been his father's years ago. An I.D. card -- but for which body?

It was a panic that smelled of earth and death. It wasn't quite possible to believe the hideous mass of it all. Some were nearly paralyzed by the horror of it, and by the near certainty that the bones would never be identified.

There was only one thing the families could be sure of - if their loved ones were here, they died in terror. Many of the blindfolds were still in place.

“I found thousand and thousands of blindfolded disfigured bodies. I found skeleton systems belonging to a crippled man, belonging to child, small skulls,†says Mohammed Haider, who searched for his grandfather, Sheik Haider, in the al-Hilla grave last May.

Sheik Haider was a cleric who was critical of Saddam, and in 1991, he was picked up by the secret police. Mohammed thought he might be able to find his body by searching for his grandfather's turban and clothes, and seeing if he could find a skull with two false teeth.

“This is arbitrary searching, this is arbitrary exploring,†says Mohammad Haider.

"Arbitrary exploring" turned up nothing for Mohammed. His grandfather is one of thousands, undiscovered or unclaimed without a prayer of being identified -- until now.

So what is the evidence? That there are mass graves. Thank you very much.

Quote[/b] ]“I found thousand and thousands of blindfolded disfigured bodies. I found skeleton systems belonging to a crippled man, belonging to child, small skulls,†says Mohammed Haider, who searched for his grandfather, Sheik Haider, in the al-Hilla grave last May.

yeah, he found thousands of blindfolded people. I don't know, sounds a little strange. Or maybe that grave belonged to a prison, where texas like executions were held of criminals?

[bn880 5]

To condemn someone of genocide of 500,000+ people, you'd better have some damned good proof. Like, confirmed reports of people being yanked out of their homes systematically for their beliefs... I don't think we have these.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, Saddam was a cute little mustached man who handed out candies to little children on his birthday.

Goodnight!

[denoir 0]

Without systematically killing people there is no way you can reach a over a half million dead.

Over 20 years? It's not unfeasible.

They wouldn't be in the same mass graves (I think). And after 20 years I don't think that there would remain much of them anyway.

I think what's more interesting now is the recent casualties in the war. Approx 100,000 civilian Iraqis is a number that I've heard a number of times. And that's in two months or so..

( Actually I think that the only hard number is 3,000 mortally wounded in half of Iraq's hospitals and the 100,000 is a reasonable interpolation considering that generally far more people die without reaching a hospital )

[ralphwiggum 6]

doesn't matter if you are political dissident or just a big criminal. when you execute them by firing squad, you traditionally put blindfolds on and shoot them. just because they are wearing blindfolds does not mean that they were non-political criminals.

[bn880 5]

Yes, Saddam was a cute little mustached man who handed out candies to little children on his birthday.

Goodnight!

i did not say that, I am sure Saddam killed many without good reason, but not this many... unless we get solid proof, then I'll believe it. However if these are mass graves of genocide victims, we'd beter invade Pakistan ASAP, they have a much worse human rights record than Iraq, and we can only imaging the mass graves under their soil. Don't forget lot's of other nations around the world.

[Scorpio 0]

I can't believe what I'm reading...

Seems to me that you're implying that Saddam isn't all that bad, bn880 and denoir. That he didnt kill thousands of innocent people.

As much as I hate to agree with Avon, I think I would have to side up with her.

With all due respect, I think your excuses are a load of bullshit. The Iran-Iraq war was almost all fought on the west border of Iran, and Iraq took very few casualties.

I'm certain these mass graves are not from war casualties but from the killings of the Ba'ath regime. If it were not for the forum rules, I would of showed you videos of quite a large number of executions of innocent people made by the Ba'ath members.

Men were tortured and killed while blindfolded.

Women and children were killed in towns on the spot.

Who knows what they did to the resistance...

The thing is, we saw a battle between a supposedly evil but certainly dumbass president, and a phsychotic evil sadistic dictator. Not between a good guy and bad guy. Not between a bad guy and a good guy. So let's halt the defencive attitude and not be bias without truth.

[bn880 5]

Yes, Saddam was a cute little mustached man who handed out candies to little children on his birthday.

Goodnight!

i did not say that, I am sure Saddam killed many without good reason, but not this many... unless we get solid proof, then I'll believe it. However if these are mass graves of genocide victims, we'd beter invade Pakistan ASAP, they have a much worse human rights record than Iraq, and we can only imaging the mass graves under their soil. Don't forget lot's of other nations around the world.

Quote for Scorpio!

[toadeater 0]

AFAIK the baathist didn't bother the regular iraqis too much. If you weren't interested in politics you had nothing to worry about really.

I believe it was a "60 Minutes" report I was watching last night about the Iraqi morgues being filled up with the almost one million bodies, that are being dug up from mass graves around Iraq, including those that had highways paved over them.

Plenty of those shown were shot in the head or beaten or tortured to death.

Maybe too many Iraqis were interested in politics. They should have listened to you.

I'll believe it when I see it. They used to say the same thing about Kosovo, they said similar about Afghanistan, they still haven't produced the evidence.

[bn880 5]

Who knows what they did to the resistance...

What is generally done to resistance? they are slaughtered everywhere, and so now.

EDIT: K Scorpio

[Scorpio 0]

Sorry about that...was busy writing something else while typing the post...

Anyway, the best proof I can suggest to you is to ask somebody who was there at the time. Or do you not trust an Iraqi...    

[edit]

Quote[/b] ]What is generally done to resistance? they are slaughtered everywhere, and so now.

LOL good point

[denoir 0]

Seems to me that you're implying that Saddam isn't all that bad, bn880 and denoir. That he didnt kill thousands of innocent people.

Not at all. Saddam was a sadistic ruthless dictator. What we are discussing is the extent of his murder. He's still a bad guy if he killed 100,000 people as opposed to a million.

The point I'm trying to make is that he was a mass murderer but he did not commit genocide (as opposed to what happened in Rwanda for example). And through that I'm making the point that this war was not for humanitarian reasons - since there were people in the world far worse off than the Iraqis.

[HOBOMAN 0]

Saddam deserves to die a painful death for what he has done. I can find no good saddam has done during his life time

[HOBOMAN 0]

And through that I'm making the point that this war was not for humanitarian reasons

The war wasn't humaniarian? How so?

[bn880 5]

Please read the entire thread though, and have a look at the previous Iraq thread linked. We can discuss in about a day when you have read everything.

EDIT: If you have read the threads, then forget it..

[EiZei 0]

And through that I'm making the point that this war was not for humanitarian reasons

The war wasn't humaniarian? How so?

If the war was fought simply because of the humanitarian reasons Iraq would not been #1 on the "hitlist".

[Nurse 0]

It makes no difference. #1 or #10 spot for crimes to humanity. The Baath regime got what they deserved and the people got their country back. I just wish the UN had the sack to go after the other rogue nations but that wont happen with France and Germany in it.

This war should have been about crimes to humanity. Unfortunately it wasnt. But the end result is the same. No more Saddam and his crew.

[EiZei 0]

It makes no difference. #1 or #10 spot for crimes to humanity. The Baath regime got what they deserved and the people got their country back. I just wish the UN had the sack to go after the other rogue nations but that wont happen with France and Germany in it.

This war should have been about crimes to humanity. Unfortunately it wasnt. But the end result is the same. No more Saddam and his crew.

So whats next? US keeps supporting another brutal regime and later "heroically" tops it?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Saddam deserves to die a painful death for what he has done. I can find no good saddam has done during his life time

Why have you read his lifes autobiography ? If so do tell us what he he did as a child or where he was on his 10th birthday and how many girl friends he had etc etc , perhaps we might find more evil in there huh? 10 yr old saddam bruttally murders his pet cat ...

[HOBOMAN 0]

US keeps supporting another brutal regime and later "heroically" tops it?

Brutal? The operation isn't brutal or cruel. The coalition has a just and rightful cause. The only thing brutal is the resitance fighters killing US soldiers and civilians.

[HOBOMAN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Saddam deserves to die a painful death for what he has done. I can find no good saddam has done during his life time

Why have you read his lifes autobiography ? If so do tell us what he he did as a child or where he was on his 10th birthday and how many girl friends he had etc etc    , perhaps we might find more evil in there huh? 10 yr old saddam bruttally murders his pet cat ...

You tell me one good thing major good thing saddam did in his life.