Hamas leader survives attack

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ] By Nidal al-Mughrabi, Reuters

GAZA (June 10) - Israel tried to kill the public face of Hamas on Tuesday, wounding Palestinian militant Abdel Aziz Rantisi in a helicopter strike that brought swift calls for revenge and may shatter a U.S.-backed peace plan.

Witnesses said two helicopter gunships fired seven missiles that set Rantisi's car ablaze in Gaza City, killing two people and wounding about 20. Rantisi leapt clear just in time and later vowed from his hospital bed to continue attacks on Israel.

Israeli security sources said he had been the target.

Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas condemned what he described as ''the criminal and terrorist Israeli attack.'' Though Hamas had defied Abbas's plea for it to stop killing Israelis, Abbas said such Israeli actions ''sabotage'' the peace process.

Rantisi, 55, is a senior political aide to Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and has taken on the informal role of spokesman for the Islamic group, which has carried out dozens of suicide bombings in Israel and opposes the peace ''road map.''

He has claimed center stage over the past week in rejecting calls by Abbas to cease attacks on Israelis under the peace proposal that envisions creation of a Palestinian state by 2005.

''We will maintain our jihad (holy struggle) and resistance until we kick out every single criminal Zionist from our land,'' Rantisi told al-Jazeera television by telephone from Gaza's Shifa Hospital. ''Killing me will not give them security.''

Referring to Middle East summits with President Bush last week in Egypt and Jordan, Palestinian Information Minister Nabil AMr. said: ''Israel's assassination attempt aims to direct a deadly blow to international peace efforts.''

How can terrorists accuse other people of being terrorists?

I would like to visit Israel to really get a grasp on the issues there. I'm confounded by how people that hate each other so much can live in such proximity. One thing is for sure, I feel sorry for the average Israelis and Palestinians who are just trying to live normal lives. I'm really starting to doubt that a peaceful coexistance is possible in my lifetime.

[bn880 5]

What do you mean, you don't think shooting at civilian cars with missiles is terrorism? Who do you think died this time.

How can the Israeli Terrorist Forces accuse anyone of being terrorists when they terrorize all these Palestinians?

[USSoldier11B 0]

I would call it a direct action military operation, however reckless it was. The intent was not to inflict terror through violence to make a political or relgious statement. However dubious, it was an attempt to assassinate a known terrorist ringleader. An act of war, not terror. People are too quick to call things terror these days. Just as I do not consider the bombing of the USS Cole an act of terror, it was an act of war as well.

[Bernadotte 0]

Who do you think died this time.

Quote[/b] ]Two bystanders, a 50-year-old woman and a five-year-old girl, were killed while another Palestinian died of his wounds moments later.

-- Sydney Morning Herald

[bn880 5]

It depends, if the car is in a civilian area where missiles will kill whoever is near by then it's a pure terrorist act. If they target the car when it's out in the open with no one around only whoever is inside, it's assasination but also very wreckless as they do not know who is with him for the ride. Could be anyone.

Assasination is basically not wreckless nor terrorism when you snipe the leader. (or any other method that gets him only)

[Die Alive 0]

How dare they attack such a kind and helpful organization as Hamas.

I'm positive that car was on it's way to plant trees, or to read to blind orphans, or perhaps to clean the bedpans of the elderly.

-=Die Alive=-

[Bernadotte 0]

I would call it a direct action military operation, however reckless it was. The intent was not to inflict terror through violence to make a political or relgious statement. However dubious, it was an attempt to assassinate a known terrorist ringleader. An act of war, not terror. People are too quick to call things terror these days.

If it was not an act of terror then please explain to us why Israel does not apprehend or finish off the intended target at this very moment in the hospital where he is being treated.

And according to you, was the killing of 4 Israeli soldiers in Gaza yesterday a military operation too?

[bn880 5]

How dare they attack such a kind and helpful organization as Hamas.

I'm positive that car was on it's way to plant trees, or to read to blind orphans, or perhaps to clean the bedpans of the elderly.

-=Die Alive=-

Here comes the radical extremist Die Alive again.

How about the people that actually died, maybe they were going to plant trees or clean bedpans. Eh wait, there probably aren't too many elderly Palestinians left. ;)

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]And according to you, was the killing of 4 Israeli soldiers in Gaza yesterday a military operation too?

Yes, killing soldiers is not terrorism. As a soldier I accept this fact. Soldiers are not innocent. It's ugly yes, but that's the way I see it. Terrorism has victims, war has casualties. The longer we pretend that Israel and Palestine are not at war, the worse this is going to get. Labeling everything as terrorism is just that.

Quote[/b] ]Assasination is basically not wreckless nor terrorism when you snipe the leader. (or any other method that gets him only)

Like I said it was reckless, military operations get goatf&*ked, or it could be intentional, I don't know all the facts, so I just see it as a reckless assassination attempt at face value. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, I'm just saying it's ugly. War is ugly, but unfortunately something that is part of human nature that we will probably never escape dispite what you utopian idealists might believe. This isn't about Israeli soveriegnty or a Palestinian homeland, it's a hatred that runs much deeper, and as long as factions continue to thrive off of it, it will continue. This state of being has existed for so long that some people do not know how to live without it. You really think establishing a Palestinian homeland will stop the fighting? I highly doubt it. my point is that the liberal media is quick to blame Israel as a whole for this incident, whereas when Israelis are killed specific militant factions are blamed, or even wear the responsibility like a badge of pride. Like I said in my first post, the situation completely confounds me. So many outsiders are so busy trying to label and place blame, who's right, who's wrong, that they fail to see that these people are dealing with something much more fundamental, survival.

[toadlife 3]

My questions is...why lob seven missiles when they could try and disable the car they were in somehow and use a few well placed snipers. This would prevent all of these tragic incidents of "collateral damage", which has to be a large factor in keeping the war going.

Both sides are wrong.

[FSPilot 0]

when it comes to the middle east, both sides are guilty, and both aren't willing to admit it.

palestinians blow up an israeli target, israelis blow up a palestinian target, rinse with the occassional westerner sticking his/her head in to stop it all, repeat.

[Bernadotte 0]

My questions is...why lob seven missiles when they could try and disable the car they were in somehow and use a few well placed snipers. This would prevent all of these tragic incidents of "collateral damage", which has to be a large factor in keeping the war going.

Both sides are wrong.

My question in response to your question is; if Hamas had Apache gunships and snipers in Israel then don't you think they would go after Israel's leaders in exactly the manner you've just described rather than shooting a salvo of rockets at a crowded street?  Both sides may be wrong but the one side clearly has the means and opportunity to fight differently, but instead chooses reckless brutality.

I'm still waiting for USSoldier11B's answer about why Israel doesn't go take the target out of the Gaza hospital, right now.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Why am I getting the feeling that noone really wants peace over there?

[Bernadotte 0]

@ June 10 2003,19:01)]Why am I getting the feeling that noone really wants peace over there?

...Unlike you crazy peace-loving Americans?  

By the way, everytime I hear an Israeli settler leader interviewed on CNN he's speaking with a Brooklyn accent.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm still waiting for USSoldier11B's answer about why Israel doesn't go take the target out of the Gaza hospital, right now.

Political blowback maybe? That's a good question. I'm not advocating a side here, although personally I doubt the world would be any worse of without the leader of Hamas. But I do get the point of your artful spinning of the subject. Basically you are implying that the attack was meant to cause an uproar not complete an objective. (killing the target)

[MrMilli 0]

My questions is...why lob seven missiles when they could try and disable the car they were in somehow and use a few well placed snipers. This would prevent all of these tragic incidents of "collateral damage", which has to be a large factor in keeping the war going.

Both sides are wrong.

Damn!

You've just made a breakthough in military tactics!

I demand you send this to the IDF Immediately.

Oh wait

actually how about because of the fact the 'well placed snipers' would be subject to the same ambushes going in and out that has caused a few of these assasinations, as well as the risk of detection while in the hides effectively surronded by people not too friendly to the fact you're trying to kill their political leaders.

[Bernadotte 0]

...because of the fact the 'well placed snipers' would be subject to the same ambushes going in and out that has caused a few of these assasinations, as well as the risk of detection while in the hides effectively surronded by people not too friendly to the fact you're trying to kill their political leaders.

Thanks for the fact.  I sure am glad to find out that Israel hasn't been sending any snipers into the occupied territories and that they've done all their killing from the safety of aircraft.

Umm... where have you been for the past 35 years?  

[Milkman 1]

Oh boy here we go again. More flaming yay!!!

My view- IDF are doing a poor job elimintating the terrorists. If you look back at the seventies, you will notice many daring and sucessful raids by Israeli security forces. But now, it seems all they manage to do is killing civilians. I think they need some newer and brighter people to run the IDF. *shrugs*

[MrMilli 0]

Come on, so you really think that the attitude of  'oh the snipers could do it easier' is really a good alternative?

I'm not saying firing off missiles is the answer but please, a little more thought into comments. Which is easier and risks the fewest Israeli lives?

Sending in a group of soldiers who have to infiltrate the area, set themselves up, kill the guy and then sneak out without getting into a contact requiring weeks of planning and risking some of the best soldiers they have to offer?

or firing off a missile from a few miles away and a few thousand feet up?

I'll be honest and say it pisses me off when people say things like that, how many people just went 'Oh they could of just got a few snipers and killed Saddam' a few months ago?

[Postduifje 0]

I don't think this falls within the definition of terrorism, but than again I don't think many of the post sept-11th things that have been called terrorism do. So if you're in to popular name-calling, this sure is an act of terrorism.

-Post

[toadlife 3]

Both sides may be wrong but the one side clearly has the means and opportunity to fight differently, but instead chooses reckless brutality.

I agree. Isreal's wrongs, however, don't make the Palestinians actions right.

Regardless of who is more right or wrong, I think that since the Palestinians are the ones who are being oppressed and lack the political/financial power of their oppressors, they must carry the burden of expressing their greivences non-violently.

[bn880 5]

when it comes to the middle east, both sides are guilty, and both aren't willing to admit it.

Yes, but the force used on both sides is not proportional, meaning what Israel is doing with its well armed terrorists and proper infrastructure is much worse than a people without any infrastructure, no police, and nothing but ocupation.

The point is, Israel is the one who needs the UN to step in and beat it back behind its "borders" and keep it there. This is a fact, the only reason it's not happening is US and Britain supporting and arming Israel, who is occupying the Palestinians (causing extreme and wrong reactions).

EDIT: And I forgot, Israels illegal WMDs are also keeping justice from reaching that region.

[bn880 5]

Regardless of who is more right or wrong, I think that since the Palestinians are the ones who are being oppressed and lack the political/financial power of their oppressors, they must carry the burden of expressing their greivences non-violently.

It doesn't work that way, sitting here at a $2000 computer it makes sense, but if you grew up as a Palestinian with Israeli tanks and watch towers haunting you constantly, and have the occasional US made chopper manned by an Israeli firing missiles at cars you would not have the patience. None at all, because you would have no hope for any future.

These people are not "born terrorists" they are just like you and just like me, their intolerance is a result of their surrounding conditions. Any one of us here could have been a "terrorist" if we grew up in Palestine under certain conditions.

[toadlife 3]

Come on, so you really think that the attitude of 'oh the snipers could do it easier' is really a good alternative?

If they couldn't do it without placing an enourmous risk on innocents, they shouldn't have attempted it at all.

I'm not saying firing off missiles is the answer but please, a little more thought into comments. Which is easier and risks the fewest Israeli lives?

So your implying that an Israeli soldier's life is more valuable than an innocent Palestinian's?

Sending in a group of soldiers who have to infiltrate the area, set themselves up, kill the guy and then sneak out without getting into a contact requiring weeks of planning and risking some of the best soldiers they have to offer?

or firing off a missile from a few miles away and a few thousand feet up?

Of course. It's what special forces from all over the world do.

I'll be honest and say it pisses me off when people say things like that, how many people just went 'Oh they could of just got a few snipers and killed Saddam' a few months ago?

I sure never said that about Hussein. There is a difference between Saddam Hussein and the leader of Hamas - the Isrealis knew where the leader of Hamas was.

[Badgerboy 0]

when it comes to the middle east, both sides are guilty, and both aren't willing to admit it.

Yes, but the force used on both sides is not proportional, meaning what Israel is doing with its well armed terrorists and proper infrastructure is much worse than a people without any infrastructure, no police, and nothing but ocupation.

The point is, Israel is the one who needs the UN to step in and beat it back behind its "borders" and keep it there.  This is a fact, the only reason it's not happening is US and Britain supporting and arming Israel, who is occupying the Palestinians (causing extreme and wrong reactions).

EDIT: And I forgot, Israels illegal WMDs are also keeping justice from reaching that region.

Any UK weapon system used by the IDF is not allowed to be deployed in the occupied territories. They tried it last year, and had a short term embargo slapped on them.