God needs your money...

[brgnorway 0]

This means if Jesus is your savior, you're a Christian.

Well, Jesus is not my savior - but I'm still Christian. Yes, it's my name for God's sake

[theavonlady 2]

Think about the Ten Ammendments

Commandments! Commandments!

You must have been confused with the forum rules thread.

[killagee 0]

Sorry About this, but these are the lyrics to Dumb All Over by Frank Zappa. c. 1981. No wonder he never got played on radio!

No offence intended.

As FZ himself once said "For crying out loud, I'm a musician. Get over it!"

Whoever we are

Wherever we're from

We shoulda noticed by now

Our behavior is dumb

And if our chances

Expect to improve

It's gonna take a lot more

Than tryin' to remove

The other race

Or the other whatever

From the face

Of the planet altogether

They call it THE EARTH

Which is a dumb kinda name

But they named it right

'Cause we behave the same...

*We are dumb all over*

Dumb all over,

Yes we are

Black 'n white

People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left

Nurds on the right

Religous fanatics

On the air every night

Sayin' the Bible

Tells the story

Makes the details

Sound real gory

'Bout what to do

If the geeks over there

Don't believe in the book

We got over here

You can't run a race

Without no feet

'N pretty soon

There won't be no street

For dummies to jog on

Or doggies to dog on

Religous fanatics

Can make it be all gone

(I mean it won't blow up

'N disappear

It'll just look ugly

For a thousand years...)

You can't run a country

By a book of religion

Not by a heap

Or a lump or a smidgeon

Of foolish rules

Of ancient date

Designed to make

You all feel great

While you fold, spindle

And mutilate

Those unbelievers

From a neighboring state

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!

Hooray! That's great

Two legs ain't bad

Unless there's a crate

They ship the parts

To mama in

For souvenirs: two ears *(Get Down!)*

Not his, not hers, *(but what the hey?)*

The Good Book says:

*("It gotta be that way!")*

But their book says:

*"REVENGE THE CRUSADES...

With whips 'n chains

'N hand grenades..."*

TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?

Have another and another

Our God says:

*"There ain't no other!"*

Our God says

*"It's all okay!"*

Our God says

*"This is the way!"*

It says in the book:

*"Burn 'n destroy...*

*'N repent, 'n redeem*

*'N revenge, 'n deploy*

*'N rumble thee forth*

*To the land of the unbelieving scum on

the other side*

*'Cause they don't go for what's in the

book*

*'N that makes 'em BAD*

*So verily we must choppeth them up*

*And stompeth them down*

*Or rent a nice French bomb*

*To poof them out of existance

*While leaving their real estate just where

we need it*

*To use again*

*For temples in which to praise

OUR GOD*

*("Cause he can really take care of

business!")*

And when his humble TV servant

With humble white hair

And humble glasses

And a nice brown suit

And maybe a blond wife who takes

phone calls

Tells us our God says

It's okay to do this stuff

Then we gotta do it,

'Cause if we don't do it,

We ain't gwine up to *hebbin!*

(Depending on which book you're using

at the time...Can't use theirs... it don't work

...it's all lies...Gotta use mine...)

Ain't that right?

That's what they say

Every night...

Every day...

Hey, we can't really be dumb

If we're just following *God's Orders*

Hey, let's get serious...

God knows what he's doin'

He wrote this book here

An' the book says:

*He made us all to be just like Him,"

so...

If we're dumb...

Then God is dumb...

*(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)*

[Tex -USMC- 0]

watch out where the huskies go- don't you eat that yellow snow...

[killagee 0]

I apologise to all for taking up too much of this thread...

But I been searching all day to find something to write that I actually can actually believe ( have faith in?).

I found this:

Humanism

I know it takes more than a day to decide these things, but this shall will do until I am convinced otherwise...

Isnt that how it is supposed to be?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

@ June 04 2003,00:38)]Your example is closer to mine than anything. Legal action is tangible and immediate, just like explosive dysentery. Religious damnation is extremely far off and abstract.

No mate, this is where you seem to be stuck. You see, for you, a member of a sophisticated society with the history and experience it has, for you legal action is tangible and immediate. You are also used to voting people into power, you are used to saying what you want.

However, back in the days, 2000 years ago and longer, people perceived the world differently. They were in a different sort of society, they did not know the meaning of democracy, majority voting or even courts. For them, religious worship was the most important thing, likely being down to the fact that their despot thought of himself as a god-like being. Thus, for a people as such, divine wrath would make more sense than court action

Actually, this is a neat example of how society changed and how society's perceptions and fears changed

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

@ June 04 2003,01:51)]Is there only one meaning? And can you be saved without understanding/adhering to that meaning?

Umm, no, there is 4 major and different Christian sects (Catholic Church, Protestant Church (same as Evangelic and Anglican Church), Greek Orthodox Church and Russian Orthodox Church) and a lot of unrecognised ones in the US.

Whilst the 4 major ones have views that are different on a few key issues, all those minor and unrecognised ones that seem to exist all over the US have completely warped the meaning of the bible Like those lunatics bombing abortion clinics, for example.

This is not a dig at the US, btw, just an observation of mine

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I apologise to all for taking up too much of this thread...

But I been searching all day to find something to write that I actually can actually believe ( have faith in?).

I found this:

Humanism

I know it takes more than a day to decide these things, but this shall will do until I am convinced otherwise...

Isnt that how it is supposed to be?

Very practical approach to life However, it is based on the fact that people help each other out.

What happens if you have no friends and suddenly half your family perishes? What is there to keep you from jumping off a cliff? A religious person can fall back on his/her faith, a humanist with friends might get over it too, but what about the people without friends, or people that shun human contact with strangers?

[killagee 0]

I apologise to all for taking up too much of this thread...

But I been searching all day to find something to write that I actually can actually believe ( have faith in?).

I found this:

Humanism

I know it takes more than a day to decide these things, but this shall will do until I am convinced otherwise...

Isnt that how it is supposed to be?

Very practical approach to life However, it is based on the fact that people help each other out.

What happens if you have no friends and suddenly half your family perishes? What is there to keep you from jumping off a cliff? A religious person can fall back on his/her faith, a humanist with friends might get over it too, but what about the people without friends, or people that shun human contact with strangers?

Humankind has evolved to its current state through "Helping each other out". Maybe I am wrong but I dont see many animals on those TV shows showing sympathy or compassion...

This is what sets us apart ( although we have no right to think we are not animals).

Since Human history has been recordable ( cave paintings... Rosetta stone...) we have lived in multi family groups. There was little contact with other groups or tribes. Most contacts resulted in Rape, murder and violence, until the development of various "Social Glues" ie: Kings, Hegemony, Religion.

Look at how different Geographically isolated cultures are. ie the Pacific islands. You cant have territorial disputes on an island 2 km square and 1ft above the waterline. They are amazing places to go to meet amzing people....

Nowdays, with 12 hour journeys across the planet, instant communication with anywhere across the planet, we all know how each other lives, and we find ourselves below the minimum "expected" standard of living ( ie the one TV per room, a car each, a boat for the weekend and other media induced expectaions) etc etc etc.

WE ARE NOW IN THE SAME PREDICAMENT AS THE ATOLL DWELLERS OF THE PACIFIC. And our ocean is rising...(Ask the Tokalauans if the USA should ratify the Kyoto Agreement!). We live on an island of spinning hot rock called EARTH that we can reach every corner of easily ( dont bog me down in physicals realities for a minute), meaning we HAVE to restructure our civilasation to rely on each other and assume a common purpose.

We will have to quell our territorial instincts until we set forth in our GREAT STEEL SPACE CANOES, where we will find more worlds apon which we can fight over, more indigenous inhabitants to enslave and species to exterminate.

We will be alone in this challange. I am afraid that besides benign aliens we have little chance of help from Allah, Buddha, Bob Geldoph or Tom Cruise when the Mushrooms Clouds Rumble thee Forth, or the Rich move into the high ground to escape the swelling oceans and wait for the World Fresh Water Wars to begin...

WE MUST HELP EACH OTHER AVOID THIS FATE for our Chldrens children...

The Pyramids were not built in a generation, it took them three. We must look ahead past our VERY MORTAL lives to ensure survival. It wont happen while powers that be RIP OFF our unbourne children.

Sorry about that. Enjoy your games

[//relic// 0]

I won't say anything with regards to faith and having a specific religious belief, as it always degenerates to pure flaming at some point and I can't even begin to comprehend the believers' mindset.

Anyhow - why do you feel the need to attribute any particular philosophy or structure to 'life, the universe and everything' killagee? It seems most sensible to me to simply approach life in a pragmatic manner.

[killagee 0]

Induvidually yes, do your bit but enjoy your life to the fullest. But Are we then all passengers? Who should be driving?

Full circle.

This is what Mankind invented Gods for. To do our driving and take responsibility for disasters, miracles etc.

If none of us are driving this bus... Can I please get off?

[FSPilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]The perfect example what i said why an internet debate around religion will lead to nothing but misunderstanding or atheist/religious proselytism

You seem to read the bible word by word as your statement here appear to me.

What is very important when you read the bible is to understand the meaning, not the apparence

Especially when you know that the bible you have in your hand is a translation ( i assume that you sont know to read greek , hebrew , aramenian and other ancient langage in what the different book that can be found in bible are originally wrote)

If you follow word by word and dont look after the deep meaning of the message , you will lose of the sense of the message in your way.

When the Christ said

Quote[/b] ]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

What do you think he mean coming "by me"?

Do you really think that because you think Jesus is the Christ and your savior and the message is Truth that you are saved ?

No , it is not only because of that to be precise.

Because if you dont act as the Christ adviced you , you just deny him all why he came , because on one part you will say that he is Truth , and on the other you will act in the opposite of his teaching

That just means you know who he is , but dont care of his teaching , remember one fact : in the bible demons or devils he encounter during his journey know perfectly who he is , but as you can read in the bible they dont act according to the Christ word , that is why he sent them back from possessing people body .

If you study the bible, remember the discussion with the rich young man and the Christ about what he need to follow him.

And more , you think that just because you say "my god, my god" and dont bother acting according his teachings you will be saved ?

How about giving a look to what the Christ teach about that question

Quote[/b] ]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Dont you understand that meaning of that ? It is really clear

you can judge yourself good, you can judge your act well and recognize the Christ.

But if your acts are in opposite to the Christ words , it is considered as iniquity.

So never said what you do in your life has no importance.

God is the final judge of who is son of the Christ and who is not as you can understand on these quote.

So in conclusion, i dont know what bible you are reading, but certainly if it is the same as mine (catholic recognized edition "Jerusalem" and edition "Oecumenic Translation of the Bible") you have certainly forgot to read this important point in the Christ teaching.

That said , one part of your saying is right : you cant be saved by ONLY work (if you reject the faith). But you are not assured that your faith only will save you , especially if you act in the opposite at the Christ words

Is that clear now FSPilot ?

I know the Bible is a translation, but that doesn't mean you can just go through it and pick out the parts you want, saying that the rest are just typos.

Once you are saved you begin to inherit the fruit of the spirit. This is where those good deeds come from.

You can't be saved by doing good deeds alone, but once you are saved the good deeds will follow.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

No mate, this is where you seem to be stuck. You see, for you, a member of a sophisticated society with the history and experience it has, for you legal action is tangible and immediate. You are also used to voting people into power, you are used to saying what you want.

No, it is the same deal. It doesn't matter about the actual actions or reactions, it is the nature in which they come about. Example: Ancient person eats spoiled meat -> ancient person gets sick. Modern person breaks law -> gets caught and is thrown in jail. Now here's the part where I throw in one that just doesn't fit the pattern: Ancient person eats spoiled meat -> ancient person is doomed to spend eternity in agony.

You see where I'm going with this?

Quote[/b] ]However, back in the days, 2000 years ago and longer, people perceived the world differently.

I hate to be pointed about this, but how would you know? 2000 years ago is 500 years after some of the greatest thinkers in existence had their time in the sun. Athens toyed with the concept of democracy, and Rome had a Senate. I think it's fairly arrogant to think that people from Socrates' age were incapable of thinking on a level that we do.

Quote[/b] ]Thus, for a people as such, divine wrath would make more sense than court action

Once again, it isn't the actual punishment, it is the nature of the punishment. Legal action and dysentery = immediate and tangible for their respective eras, while eternal damnation = something off in the future that can be neither confirmed nor denied.

[Renagade 0]

I  think the  last part depends on what kind of lawers and prosecution  there  is  :P

oh and george bush wants all ur money

http://www.gaybetamax.co.uk/flash1.html

[Tovarish 0]

Look at it this way: they care enough about you to risk verbal and even physical abuse to try to save you from, what they firmly and honestly believe is, eternal torture.

So they want to protect me from eternal torture once I pass on by eternally trying to torture me every Sunday morning at my door...I guess that makes sense, if they give me my fair share before I die ;). They even look up your name somehow, I know that whenever I'm over at my parents and they show up, they're Spanish-speaking and are surprized when I open the door because I look so...Gringo . What's more they can't seem to grasp the meaning of "we're not interested thanks" or a few weeks after that just closing the door on them mid-sentence into their sermon. Maybe I should answer the door with 666 written on my forehead

Once upon a time Christian leaders believed it was right to torture unbelievers into converting in order to save their immortal soul. Because they think their intentions are good dosen't mean I have to appreciate or put up with them.

Quote[/b] ]You seem to read the bible word by word as your statement here appear to me.

What is very important when you read the bible is to understand the meaning, not the apparence

Especially when you know that the bible you have in your hand is a translation ( i assume that you sont know to read greek , hebrew , aramenian and other ancient langage in what the different book that can be found in bible are originally wrote)

If you follow word by word and dont look after the deep meaning of the message , you will lose of the sense of the message in your way.

Anyone here seen Monty Pythons "Life of Brian"? I love that part where he looses his shoe and all his followers agree that it's a sign but can't agree to what it means:

Quote[/b] ]FOLLOWERS:

Oh! Oh! Ohh! Oh! Ah! Oh!

ARTHUR:

He has given us a sign!

FOLLOWER:

Oh!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

He has given us... His shoe!

ARTHUR:

The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.

SPIKE:

What?

ARTHUR:

Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.

EDDIE:

Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

No, no, no. The shoe is...

YOUTH:

No.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

GIRL:

Cast off...

SPIKE:

Aye. What?

GIRL:

...the shoes! Follow the Gourd!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

No! Let us gather shoes together!

FRANK:

Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Let me!

ELSIE:

Oh, get off!

YOUTH:

No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Give me your shoe!

YOUTH:

Get off!

GIRL:

Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

FOLLOWER:

The Gourd!

HARRY:

Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!

ARTHUR:

It is a shoe! It is a shoe!

HARRY:

It's a sandal!

ARTHUR:

No, it isn't!

GIRL:

Cast it away!

ARTHUR:

Put it on!

YOUTH:

And clear off!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Take the shoes and follow Him!

GIRL:

Come,...

FRANK:

Yes!

GIRL:

...all ye who call yourself Gourdenes!

SPIKE:

Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us-- let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.

I love that movie .

[Milkman 1]

Here are the Fifteen *Crash* TEN commandments.  

History of the World, Thats a great movie. Back on Topic, I, as an athiest, belive god did not create humanity, but Humanity created god. Now why would humans do this? Because they needed answers. I believe religion is used as an excuse for wars, I believe religion is used s a form of control. If you look back to the dark ages, you will see Priests burning policital and social opponets because they were "Demons" or "Sinners". It was all a big excuse to eliminate opponets of anything that the priests found fit.

I have nothing against religious people, except for the zealots, they just sicken me. I think they (religious people) are just too foolish to understand it is not real, but they think that I am too foolish to understand that it is real. They want to "elighten" me, more like take my money. I don't believe in a Hell or a heaven, when I die, I will enjoy an eternity of nothingness, and I will like it.  

[Tovarish 0]

Here are the Fifteen *Crash* TEN commandments.  

History of the World, Thats a great movie.

Who else could portray the Spanish Inquisition as a musical?  

I share your views completely.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Here are the Fifteen *Crash* TEN commandments.  

History of the World, Thats a great movie.

Who else could portray the Spanish Inquisition as a musical?  

I share your views completely.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

@ June 04 2003,19:36)]

No mate, this is where you seem to be stuck. You see, for you, a member of a sophisticated society with the history and experience it has, for you legal action is tangible and immediate. You are also used to voting people into power, you are used to saying what you want.

No, it is the same deal. It doesn't matter about the actual actions or reactions, it is the nature in which they come about. Example: Ancient person eats spoiled meat -> ancient person gets sick. Modern person breaks law -> gets caught and is thrown in jail. Now here's the part where I throw in one that just doesn't fit the pattern: Ancient person eats spoiled meat -> ancient person is doomed to spend eternity in agony.

You see where I'm going with this?

Quote[/b] ]However, back in the days, 2000 years ago and longer, people perceived the world differently.

I hate to be pointed about this, but how would you know? 2000 years ago is 500 years after some of the greatest thinkers in existence had their time in the sun. Athens toyed with the concept of democracy, and Rome had a Senate. I think it's fairly arrogant to think that people from Socrates' age were incapable of thinking on a level that we do.

Quote[/b] ]Thus, for a people as such, divine wrath would make more sense than court action

Once again, it isn't the actual punishment, it is the nature of the punishment. Legal action and dysentery = immediate and tangible for their respective eras, while eternal damnation = something off in the future that can be neither confirmed nor denied.

No, its not the same deal. People back then were thinking in different terms. It is complete and total fallacy to assume that people back then thought in the same terms as people nowadays. That is just wrong.

Go back 60 years - the nazis thought it was ok to gas jews, you people thought it was ok to regard blacks as semi-humans at best, the British thought they were god's gift to mankind. Go back another 60 years - Germany and Italy didn't even exist, blacks were slaves in the US, the Monroe doctrine and the genocide against the Indians were at their height and nobody thought it wrong.

Different times, different ways of thinking. Nowadays, to sell something to a person you have to use either the threat of legal action or lure them with sex. Back then you threatened them with divine intervention.

[Milkman 1]

I  think the  last part depends on what kind of lawers and prosecution  there  is  :P

oh and george bush wants all ur money

http://www.gaybetamax.co.uk/flash1.html

I thought I was the only one who knew about that flashmovie!

I hear the band that sings that song is Swedish *cough* Denoir *cough*

[blackdog~ 0]

@ June 04 2003,13:55)]

Here are the Fifteen *Crash* TEN commandments.  

History of the World, Thats a great movie.

Who else could portray the Spanish Inquisition as a musical?  

I share your views completely.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

That's SamuraiGuido's bloody sound on the SHoP server. Scares the crap out of you the first time you hear it ;)

Well back on topic, if you ask me, many third-world (in my view) faiths are very well balanced, such as Buddhism and Islam (which the terrorists ruin, it is a very honest faith) although I am Christian myself.

How this current discussion sums up, I think we just all need to get along (on these forums AND in the real world ;))

PS: Flying Viking Kittens - same gay bar song

http://www.rathergood.com/gaybar/

and for [swedish] meatballs:

http://www.rathergood.com/meatball/

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

PS: Flying Viking Kittens - same gay bar song

http://www.rathergood.com/gaybar/

and for [swedish] meatballs:

http://www.rathergood.com/meatball/

Hehe

Oh btw look what i found "My baby Donkey"

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Topic closed because some clowns just can't stay on topic

Postcounts will be reduced for this!