Ofp 2 plot - it's about evil russia (or u.s.s.r.)

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course, outside the Brits, most European militaries are third rate conscript forces which couldn't lose two battalions without folding.

<span id='postcolor'>

What a complete load of arrogant wank!

I don't like to admit but we suck compared to the guys on the continent, the British are good against almost everyone we've fought so far but we always get thrashed in the NATO exercises. America usually comes out worse than Britain, it's no wonder they don't publish the results of these exercises, we would look like a bunch of schoolgirls against the Finns!

Denoir back me up here.

The British military is good, hey, when you are an evil empire and rule 1/3 of the world for 300 years you have to be. But the other European forces have shitloads more combat experience than the US like us and have very efficient militaries.

I don't know what Brgnorway thinks about National service but there are some people who would promote it as a good source of discipline, there's a reason that Norway is the third cleanest country in the world you know, unlike the shitholes of cities down here in 'Great' Britain.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ 09 May 2003,19:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, Bobby.

I agree with some your thoughts. Like hockey, for example

But don't you think that those OPF scenarios contain too much antirussian meaning?

I'm already talk about it here and ready to repeat it today:

It is at least loutishness to humble nation which saved your country, your capital in WWII from nazis. About 90 000 soviet soldiers were die in fight of Chez espetially Prague. What for they died? May be for you, or may be for those ill guys who devised OFP story. It is really meanness.

I'm not against such stories, but I can't tolerate so unfair and inconceivable scenarios. Have you ever heared about rebelled troops in Russia? About mutineer Russian oficer? Yep, you didn't and you will not.

You may try to recall '68 spring, but it is can't be compare to sacrifice of our forefathers. And it is very, very intricate history moment.

BTW. I coungratulate everyone who celebrate Great Victory Day today!

Today is the 58th anniversary of victory under fascism in WWII.<span id='postcolor'>

About 90 000 soviet soldiers were die in fight of Chez espetially Prague. What for they died? May be for you, or may be for those ill guys who devised OFP story. It is really meanness.

Oh yeah,russia won ww2 all by themself.. (just kidding) But if we(american) said X died on dday,and the french doesn't care,people would have been flaming the person.

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah,russia won ww2 all by themself.. (just kidding) But if we(american) said X died on dday,and the french doesn't care,people would have been flaming the person.<span id='postcolor'>

you did't get the point...

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ 09 May 2003,13:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you ever heared about rebelled troops in Russia? About mutineer Russian oficer? Yep, you didn't and you will not.<span id='postcolor'>

That's because they're shot before anyone can hear about them. And the ones that aren't go to work for terrorists.

You think that's meanness? It's the truth.

Russia needs to get its act together and stop living in WW2 and long-forgotten heroics. The Russian military is underpaid, corrupt, an ultraconservative bureacracy, and a danger to the entire world, most of all Russia itself. Russian officers are too often concerned with their own schemes rather than considering the welfare of the country or even their own men for that matter.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ 10 May 2003,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah,russia won ww2 all by themself.. (just kidding) But if we(american) said X died on dday,and the french doesn't care,people would have been flaming the person.<span id='postcolor'>

you did't get the point...<span id='postcolor'>

You don't get my point.

[Azatoth 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ 10 May 2003,07:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ 10 May 2003,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah,russia won ww2 all by themself.. (just kidding) But if we(american) said X died on dday,and the french doesn't care,people would have been flaming the person.<span id='postcolor'>

you did't get the point...<span id='postcolor'>

You don't get my point.

<span id='postcolor'>

In Europe die about 100 000 US Soldiers

Maybe you not know how many people die in 3 years 10 months 18 day in USSR ?

About 26 000 000, west Russia be destroyed, nazy destroy ALL, our forces destroy 80% of nazy...

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 09 May 2003,17:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What a complete load of arrogant wank!

I don't like to admit but we suck compared to the guys on the continent, the British are good against almost everyone we've fought so far but we always get thrashed in the NATO exercises. America usually comes out worse than Britain, it's no wonder they don't publish the results of these exercises, we would look like a bunch of schoolgirls against the Finns!<span id='postcolor'>

I observed several other militaries at an exercise in Egypt and frankly I wasn't very ecstatic with them.. well at least not in my area of expertise - signal.

I think the key to the strength of the U.S military is that it has a very wide spectrum of capabilities that it is very good at.

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (toadeater @ 10 May 2003,07:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ 09 May 2003,13:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you ever heared about rebelled troops in Russia? About mutineer Russian oficer? Yep, you didn't and you will not.<span id='postcolor'>

That's because they're shot before anyone can hear about them. And the ones that aren't go to work for terrorists.

You think that's meanness? It's the truth.

Russia needs to get its act together and stop living in WW2 and long-forgotten heroics. The Russian military is underpaid, corrupt, an ultraconservative bureacracy, and a danger to the entire world, most of all Russia itself. Russian officers are too often concerned with their own schemes rather than considering the welfare of the country or even their own men for that matter.<span id='postcolor'>

Could you please give me your rank in Russain army, if you served in it, of course. But it looks like you're even not a russian.

And there is NOTHING fogotten here and will not. Be confidence in it.

I particularly like this: The Russian military is underpaid, corrupt, an ultraconservative bureacracy, and a danger to the entire world, most of all Russia itself.

Who the hell are you, mister? Great analyst, specialist in russian army, CIA agent? Or I'm talking to another brainwashed zombie (do not resent, but it's very resemble to it)? Where did you get such information? Looks like on FoXnews...

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Azatoth @ 10 May 2003,08:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ 10 May 2003,07:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ 10 May 2003,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah,russia won ww2 all by themself.. (just kidding) But if we(american) said X died on dday,and the french doesn't care,people would have been flaming the person.<span id='postcolor'>

you did't get the point...<span id='postcolor'>

You don't get my point.

<span id='postcolor'>

In Europe die about 100 000 US Soldiers

Maybe you not know how many people die in 3 years 10 months 18 day in USSR ?

About 26 000 000, west Russia be destroyed, nazy destroy ALL, our forces destroy 80% of nazy...<span id='postcolor'>

Ok,lot of people died.I agree ,that sucks.

But everyone had important part.Russia aren't special because they had 26 million dead.

Military is always underpaid.Even the US military.

[Goodspeed 0]

And now it is real offtopic...

[zverushka 0]

The red army paid mmore of a price than you can even IMAGINE. 26 million people died. Alot of them gassed in the concentration camps, starved in blockaded cities, or if they were lucky, just shot, in battle or not.

You always hear about the amount of german women raped by the evil red army. Have you ever heard about the amount of russian women raped by the germans?

All of western russia up to moscow was COMPLETELY razed to the ground. In fact, if Leningrad had been captured, Hitler was planing on dynamiting all the buildings and making a new GERMAN city. Imagine, the Hermitage, Petergof, the Admiralty, ALL GONE. It was just under the tremendous resolve of the starving, outnumbered, underequipped russian soldiers that they held the germans off for 4 years.

One time in Leningrad under the siege, the curator of the Hermitage decided to celebrate the birthday of Azerbaijan's national poet. He actually gathered quite a few people, but some didn't have the strength to go all the way to the hermitage and died on the way. After one person recited some poetry, although he was strong enough to walk to the museum, he died. The curator, IIRC died too on the way out. People were so weak they couldn't stand up. Yet the soviet soldiers held off the German attacks.

In the US, world war II was just another war, costlier than oters, but they consider the civil war and the revolutionary war far more important. In Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, World War II was probably the most important war. So many died. In every city, there's always a statue or a plaque dedicated to the people who died in that city when the germans took it, or during the occupation, or when soviet soldiers recaptured it. In Sevastopol, I saw at least 5 memorial statues from world war II, and some more from the Crimean war.

[foxer 0]

I'm not trying take anything from russia.But if an american said,"Thousands died on the beachs of france,and they can't support us in this war(iraq war)?." He would get flame by everyone.That's all i'm saying.I agree that russia did a huge part.

[toadeater 0]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ 10 May 2003,099)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You always hear about the amount of german women raped by the evil red army. Have you ever heard about the amount of russian women raped by the germans?<span id='postcolor'>

This is a great movie if you want to see an example of what the Nazis were doing in parts of Russia:

Come And See

Don't expect a sanitized Steven Spielberg movie though, it's truly depressing and realistic.

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not trying take anything from russia.But if an american said,"Thousands died on the beachs of france,and they can't support us in this war(iraq war)?." He would get flame by everyone.That's all i'm saying.I agree that russia did a huge part. <span id='postcolor'>

Russia liberate many European countries fro Nazi Germany in 1945. But they didn’t ask any of this countries fight with them in Afghanistan in 1979.

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ 10 May 2003,02:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Could you please give me your rank in Russain army, if you served in it, of course. But it looks like you're even not a russian.

And there is NOTHING fogotten here and will not. Be confidence in it.

I particularly like this: The Russian military is underpaid, corrupt, an ultraconservative bureacracy, and a danger to the entire world, most of all Russia itself.

Who the hell are you, mister? Great analyst, specialist in russian army, CIA agent? Or I'm talking to another brainwashed zombie (do not resent, but it's very resemble to it)? Where did you get such information? Looks like on FoXnews...<span id='postcolor'>

I am 1/2 Russian, born in Leningrad, I emigrated to America in 1977. A few of my relatives were in the Soviet military. A colonel in the rocket forces and a major in the army, as well as some who did the mandatory conscript service.

But that's not where I get the latest info from. I've been doing alot of research about the Russian military for the sake of making good OFP missions, and Fox News is not one of the places I am getting my info from. Here are two examples if you want to start discussing this:

"More than 300 officers, including one general, were convicted last year for beating subordinates."

Army Corruption

"Starving troops, field-grade officers

committing suicide, soldiers' pay three to four months late

-- these are the news reports coming out of Russia."

Russian Army in Shambles

There's also the theft of submarine parts, sales of weapons to Chechen terrorists, and other things. There's too many troops, not enough pay, not enough maintenance, and no one to keep tabs on what all the officers are doing, especially in obscure bases in the East and South. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ 11 May 2003,10:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Russia liberate many European countries fro Nazi Germany in 1945. But they didn’t ask any of this countries fight with them in Afghanistan in 1979.<span id='postcolor'>

Liberate. Well if I have the two names of Stalin and Hitler on my ballot-sheet I would still be undecided of where to put my cross.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 08 May 2003,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I was German, I wouldn't harp too much on the French. I have read some military papers which lead me to believe that current French forces could kick the Bundeswehr's ass.  <span id='postcolor'>

Taking germany as the battleground, well in that case I doubt it. But taking a neutral battleground....I assume it might be very likely.

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (toadeater @ 11 May 2003,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am 1/2 Russian, born in Leningrad, I emigrated to America in 1977. A few of my relatives were in the Soviet military. A colonel in the rocket forces and a major in the army, as well as some who did the mandatory conscript service.

But that's not where I get the latest info from. I've been doing alot of research about the Russian military for the sake of making good OFP missions, and Fox News is not one of the places I am getting my info from. Here are two examples if you want to start discussing this:

"More than 300 officers, including one general, were convicted last year for beating subordinates."

Army Corruption

"Starving troops, field-grade officers

committing suicide, soldiers' pay three to four months late

-- these are the news reports coming out of Russia."

Russian Army in Shambles

There's also the theft of submarine parts, sales of weapons to Chechen terrorists, and other things. There's too many troops, not enough pay, not enough maintenance, and no one to keep tabs on what all the officers are doing, especially in obscure bases in the East and South. It's a disaster waiting to happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, toadeater...

Your opinion based on foregin news sources? Why don't you ask your military friends? Or better come to Russian and join military then talk about it.

Very interesting point of view: "I'm 1/2 russian"... How can it be?

[tracy_t 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 09 May 2003,23:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course,  outside the Brits,  most European militaries are third rate conscript forces which couldn't lose two battalions without folding.

<span id='postcolor'>

What a complete load of arrogant wank!

I don't like to admit but we suck compared to the guys on the continent, the British are good against almost everyone we've fought so far but we always get thrashed in the NATO exercises. America usually comes out worse than Britain, it's no wonder they don't publish the results of these exercises, we would look like a bunch of schoolgirls against the Finns!

Denoir back me up here.

The British military is good, hey, when you are an evil empire and rule 1/3 of the world for 300 years you have to be. But the other European forces have shitloads more combat experience than the US like us and have very efficient militaries.

I don't know what Brgnorway thinks about National service but there are some people who would promote it as a good source of discipline, there's a reason that Norway is the third cleanest country in the world you know, unlike the shitholes of cities down here in 'Great' Britain.<span id='postcolor'>

Jinef,

I think it's absolutely terrible that you run down Britain. If you don't like the place, just GO. Don't bitch about it!

I believe our American cousins would be inclined to agree with the "love it or leave it" mentality, yes?

I'm a proud Scotsman, and I say my country is one of the most beautiful in the world. I don't know where you live, but as I said, I would advise you to leave it immediately.

Also, I have friends & family who serve in the army (Black Watch & REME to be precise) who would be dismayed by your derogatory comments about the British army and the "evil empire" it represents.

Obviously you won't give a f**k as you are anonymous on this board - I expect some choice words in reply - but I will say if you are ex-army, I think you are a disgrace.

Yours sincerely

Scott T.

[tracy_t 0]

Actually Jinef, I see you have changed your avatar to be a Welsh dragon. Yakky-da, I see what you mean in your post now.

Look you now, I'm away to have a pint

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Liberate. Well if I have the two names of Stalin and Hitler on my ballot-sheet I would still be undecided of where to put my cross.

<span id='postcolor'>

yes, Liberate. There was Hungary, Romania, Croatia and some other European countries who invade Russia with German troops, not otherwise. Remember ?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 09 May 2003,23:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course,  outside the Brits,  most European militaries are third rate conscript forces which couldn't lose two battalions without folding.

<span id='postcolor'>

What a complete load of arrogant wank!

I don't like to admit but we suck compared to the guys on the continent, the British are good against almost everyone we've fought so far but we always get thrashed in the NATO exercises. America usually comes out worse than Britain, it's no wonder they don't publish the results of these exercises, we would look like a bunch of schoolgirls against the Finns!

Denoir back me up here.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll back you up. My experience with US forces come from two NATO (ppf+Russia) excercises and from KFOR. In short I was not at all impressed with the regular US forces. When they fight on their terms and with the logistics in place they function adequately. Without that the results are miserable. On the excercises they performed below average.

On the Neptune-98 ex. in Norway for instance the marines got lost in the forrest (a magnificent feat since we all had GPS receivers). The US army's unit quit the ex. because they ran out of food.

Why did this happen? Because they weren't used to the climate and environment. They also have a huge dependencies on their logistic and lack proper survival training.

But hey! It doesn't really matter since they obviously get the job done. The focus is on logistics, technology and most importantly picking the fights - and not on the quality of the individual soldiers. This system has many benefits - for instance the officer <-> enlisted men relationship is far more humane than in any other military that I've seen.

The US special forces are a completely different story and I hold them in high regard. In Kosovo our team worked on several occasions with members from the 10th SFG and they were indeed highly competent soliers. The only complaint that I had about them is that they were very cranky when not properly fed

One of the members of our team was a former recon marine - also a very competent guy that stood in sharp contrast to the regular US units (he was not in my group but all the dealings that I had with him were positive and everybody in his group held him in high regard)

The overall "best" regular units I've seen are the British ones. It's nothing short of amazing what they can pull off with a minimum of resources.

The best officers that I've worked with are Russian ones. Very competent and easy to work with.

The bottom line is that it is very difficult to define what the "best soldier" means. I' ve chosen adaptability with limited resources as my benchmark. In that US regular soldiers do not score high. If you instead define the benchmark as the ability to destroy the enemy by any means necessary then the US soldiers score high - they just call in an air strike. And that works perfectly in a combat situation where the objective is the destruction of the enemy. It doesn't work in peace keeping missions etc. That's why US forces are excellent in offensive operations while they really suck at taking care of the aftermath.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we would look like a bunch of schoolgirls against the Finns!<span id='postcolor'>Well said

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ 13 May 2003,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My experience with US forces come from two NATO (ppf+Russia) excercises and from KFOR.<span id='postcolor'>

What exercises were these? what units? 

anyway.. there weren't any scandinavians in the large multinational exercise I participated in. They would melt in desert ops. There were probably ten other forces though.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 13 May 2003,17:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ 13 May 2003,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My experience with US forces come from two NATO (ppf+Russia) excercises and from KFOR.<span id='postcolor'>

What exercises were these?<span id='postcolor'>

Neptune in '98 (PfP + Russia) and Cooperative Assembly also in '98 (as an observer).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what units?

<span id='postcolor'>

Don't remember exactly. On the Neptune there was the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit and some Army units.

Our unit had the big misfortune of on one part of the excersise getting teamed up with a marine platoon that screwed up royally. The ex. was to capture a small Norwegian port guarded by a company of British paras. A-dyk (my unit) was to secure the guarded landing site and then call in the marines and kustjägarna that had one platoon each and was to make a direct assault on the port. We did our job and cleared the landing site and then called in the amphibs. Kustjägarna came right on the minute. There was no trace of the Marines. After waiting for 10 minutes with the great risk of detection it was decided that the kj platoon should split up and half of it should take the western flank that the Marines were supposed to take. When we moved in towards the port suddenly the Marines appear, from the wrong direction, screaming and shooting, effectivly destroying any advantage of surprise we had.

Needless to say, they got wiped out. After some heavy fighting and 70% losses from KJ the British were all "dead". I can tell you that after that incident the marines did not have any friends. Even the British who in fact benefited from thier incompetence looked down on them with contempt.

We asked them later WTF they were doing. Their CO said that the Brits were supposed to be dead that everybody else cheated that he didn't get any air support that his equipment was defective etc etc

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">anyway.. there weren't any scandinavians in the large multinational exercise I participated in. They would melt in desert ops. <span id='postcolor'>

Most likely yes Besides some assorted peace keeping missions we have very little interest in desert combat so we're not trained in any way for it