The Dogs of War

[PitViper 0]

Just as a comparison for you Denoir: if an Iraqi POW accidentally cuts their lip open when under U.S supervision, their guards have to file large reports on why the POW was injured.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,17:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,18:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Btw, on this rescue: I'm not hearing anything on the two POWs that were killed in the rescue mission. Anybody have anything more on that?<span id='postcolor'>

I didn't here that anyone was killed during the rescue. They found two coalition troop bodies and several Iraqi dead in the hospital. That's all the I heard.<span id='postcolor'>

Yepp, that's the dead that I meant. Two US POWs and seven dead Iraqi. Pentagon said it was unclear at the moment if they were killed during the rescue or if they were dead before that. Swedish media reported that the two POWs were killed by crossfire between the Deltas and Iraqis, quoting a "military source". They also said that one Delta was criticaly wounded and two others lightly.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just as a comparison for you Denoir: if an Iraqi POW accidentally cuts their lip open when under U.S supervision, their guards have to file large reports on why the POW was injured.<span id='postcolor'>

I always thought it was sad with such unproportionate propaganda, but now I realize the even sadder part is that people actually believe it. After Afghanistan, USA lost all its credibility on treatement of POWs.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,17:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess that answeres the question if the Iraqi will treat POWs properly.<span id='postcolor'>

She had both her legs and her arm broken.  We haven't even heard her accounts on whether she was tortured or not.

Funny how you are so quick to absolve the Iraqis.<span id='postcolor'>

She was being treated in a hospital. Pentagon had hinted that they thought that they would be executed. Their story and the reality did obviously not match.

Btw, on this rescue: I'm not hearing anything on the two POWs that were killed in the rescue mission. Anybody have anything more on that?<span id='postcolor'>

But the Pentagon says that hospital was being used as an Iraqi field base. General Brooks made a big long tirade about the tactics of the Iraqi regime.

The clip on Reuters said there was fighting all around the hospital, but didn't mention if she was being treated there, or merely held there.

[Guest]

Baghdad fears impending firefight -BBC

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

As the coalition forces press on towards Baghdad, military preparations here appear to be low key.

As I drive around the city, I do not get any sense of enormous defensive positions, tanks out in the streets, or huge military encampments.

There are no checkpoints and no curfews. Baghdad is still an open city.

However, there might be large numbers of forces secreted away within the city.

Urban warfare

Certainly the Iraqi authorities are exuding an enormous amount of self-confidence.

A few days ago, I asked the Iraqi minister of defence which Republican Guard positions were being hit and how badly, but he did not reveal much.

What he did say was that the Iraqis had learned lessons in the first Gulf War.

They were not going to leave their troops massed in their thousands, waiting to be picked off by Apache helicopters like sitting ducks.

The minister of defence also said they had taken measures to have their divisions broken up into small units that could be deeply dug into the city in the event of urban warfare.

Now, as a British journalist, I'm not going to be allowed to visit Iraqi forces and take pictures of them to verify what he says.

But to a certain extent I believe him.

Iraqi advantages

The Iraqis have had a year to prepare for this war. They know how their whole military collapsed in Kuwait the first time, and they will not let that happen again.

So it could be that what the B-52s are doing on the outskirts of Baghdad is simply pounding empty sand and empty buildings. I do not know.

What I do know is that we have seen evidence of small units of 10 to 15 men scattered throughout the city.

It is clear that the defence of Baghdad goes down to the very basic unit of the neighbourhood. It is not one large army defending a whole city.

The local officials who lead the units - be they from the ruling Ba'ath party or from the army - know their neighbourhoods extremely well.

This is one of the advantages the Iraqis will have if it comes to house to house fighting.

The US and Britain have not had diplomats on the ground in Baghdad for 12 years now, so their intelligence may be out of date.

Coalition's firepower

However, there will be disadvantages for the Iraqis regarding urban warfare.

They have technologically inferior weapons, and they are open to surveillance from the air.

If water, electricity and supply routes are cut off - if it turns into a classic siege - it will be very difficult for the Iraqi military, as well as for the Iraqi people.

It is hard to tell what the citizens of Baghdad really think of the war because this is a very controlled society.

From what I have seen though, I think that people are genuinely afraid of the consequences of a siege of Baghdad.

'Huge weapons'

There are likely to be more civilian casualties, particularly if the coalition forces try to minimise their own losses by continuing bombardments.

What is certain is that the longer the war goes on, the more the people of Iraq are being affected.

However they feel about a policy that seeks to overthrow the government, and no matter how careful the targeting of the bombardments, the reality is that huge weapons are being used.

Property is being damaged, and there have been a couple of tragic incidences when large numbers of civilians have been killed.

More than 400 cruise missiles and bombs have smashed into this city.

The people of Baghdad are traumatised, and frightened of what is still to come.

<span id='postcolor'>

[WhoCares 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,17:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Released pic of her on a stretcher sometime during evac.

<span id='postcolor'>

Which B-movie director told them, to cover her with the 'Stars and Stripes'?! The word pathetic comes in mind, with all its german meanings...  

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ April 02 2003,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The word pathetic comes in mind<span id='postcolor'>

"Ham" is the word that comes to my mind.

Regarding the bodies, update:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Two of the bodies were in a morgue in the hospital, while the nine others were buried outside the building, Brooks said. He said U.S. forces were led to the graves by someone who had been taken into custody.<span id='postcolor'>

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._us_pow

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 02 2003,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 02 2003,14:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Was that the Wehrmacht's strategy in Russia?  For Operation Blau?  I assume so, but I'm just not certain what you were reffering to there.<span id='postcolor'>

No, I was referring to Operation Barbarossa. The quote is by Hitler, circa 1941. The premise was that once the liberating German armies enter the Soviet Union, the ecstatic citizens would throw off the shackles of communism and join the third reich in their rightful place as the untermenschen ("Once you kick in the door... etc."). That did actually happen for a short time in Western Ukraina and Belarus', until sonderkommandos started rounding off people wholesale and shooting them in nearby ravines. By the time the Germans advanced further, the people were fighting for Mother Russia (NB: not the communist party). Pretty soon Wehrmacht was facing stiffening resistance from the front and hundreds of thousands (I'm not kidding) partisans in the "conquered" territories.

What does all of this have to do with Iraq?

a) The false premise that the local population will support the "liberation".

b) Interference of politicans with military planning.

Does this mean that GW2 will end up the same way as the Great Patriotic War? Not necessarily. Probably not. But I'd say the implications for Anglo-American forces are troubling.

Edit: spelling and minor details<span id='postcolor'>

Except for the small, insignificant fact that a large number of Soviets did greet the Wermacht as liberators, at least initially. That all changed when the Schutzstaffel arrived, though. Are you suggesting that the Americans are planning on enslaving or ethnically cleansing Iraqis? Think carefully before you answer.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 02 2003,11:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Except for the small, insignificant fact that a large number of Soviets did greet the Wermacht as liberators, at least initially. That all changed when the Schutzstaffel arrived, though. Are you suggesting that the Americans are planning on enslaving or ethnically cleansing Iraqis? Think carefully before you answer.<span id='postcolor'>

Well... I do think we plan on "Americanizing" them. Iraq is about to become the 51st State. You can bet Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Royal Crown Cola are all going to have their own Gulf War for the hearts and minds of the Iraqis when the shooting dies down.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ April 02 2003,19:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well... I do think we plan on "Americanizing" them. Iraq is about to become the 51st State.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean New Jersey is going to lose the title as the "Worst Drivers" state?

[Blaegis 0]

Tex, did you actually read my post?

Tex:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Except for the small, insignificant fact that a large number of Soviets did greet the Wermacht as liberators, at least initially. That all changed when the Schutzstaffel arrived, though.<span id='postcolor'>

Me:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That did actually happen for a short time in Western Ukraina and Belarus', until sonderkommandos started rounding off people wholesale and shooting them in nearby ravines<span id='postcolor'>

Tex:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you suggesting that the Americans are planning on enslaving or ethnically cleansing Iraqis? Think carefully before you answer<span id='postcolor'>

Please read my point a). The similarities are the lack of local support for the attacking force, not the treatment of civilians by the attacking force. And in the lack of local support (for whatever reason it is there) lie the military implications for the attacking force.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Tell you the truth, I didn't, really. I just get a little testy whenever someone posts a comparison between America and Nazi Germany. Seems to happen alot these days lol. Anyhow, sorry for the kneejerk reaction. You do make some decent points.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,11:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I always thought it was sad with such unproportionate propaganda, but now I realize the even sadder part is that people actually believe it.<span id='postcolor'>

it's not propaganda, its military procedure.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After Afghanistan, USA lost all its credibility on treatement of POWs.<span id='postcolor'>

Just because there is confusion as to what the prisoners should be classified as doesn't mean that they are mistreated. The prisoners can read, practice their religion, shower daily, eat three full meals a day etc etc. They are being treated with the highest of regard.

How you claim the POW-shooting Iraqis are treating POW's better than coalition forces is beyond me.

*shakes head*

[Guest]

4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,194)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The prisoners can read, practice their religion, shower daily, eat three full meals a day etc etc.  They are being treated with the highest of regard.<span id='postcolor'>

In their wooden cages... yes. And when they are not tortured to death.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How you claim the POW-shooting Iraqis are treating POW's better than coalition forces is beyond me.  

<span id='postcolor'>

I havn't seen how the Iraqi POWs are treated and I havn't seen any evidence that the Iraqis are shooting US POWs.

Edit: Treatement with the highest regard:

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,13:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I havn't seen any evidence that the Iraqis are shooting US POWs.<span id='postcolor'>

wow.. those iraqi's must have incredible aim with their rifles then. either right in the temple or between the eyes.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow.. those iraqi's must have incredible aim with their rifles then. either right in the temple or between the eyes. <span id='postcolor'>

You underestimate the abilities of Iraqi forces. They have snipers as you have. Well you are in good company along with your TBA military thinktank.

Is this arrogance or is it a problem of dominance ?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In their wooden cages... yes. And when they are not tortured to death.<span id='postcolor'>

Is torture by the US systemized and in wide use?

Is torture by Iraq systemized and in wide use?

Not that I'm justifying either one.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: Treatement with the highest regard:

<span id='postcolor'>

1. What's wrong with that treatment?

2. Why was such a holding method used?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,20:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,13:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I havn't seen any evidence that the Iraqis are shooting US POWs.<span id='postcolor'>

wow.. those iraqi's must have incredible aim with their rifles then.  either right in the temple or between the eyes.<span id='postcolor'>

C'mon, Pitviper. None of us have seen or read of definitive evidence to this point.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,19:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. What's wrong with that treatment?<span id='postcolor'>

How about violations of oh, I think at least 5-6 Geneva convention rules. They were gagged, drugged and blindfolded. You could imagine the media storm of outrage and indignation that would errupt if such pictures of US POWs were to be shown.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Why was such a holding method used?<span id='postcolor'>

Humiliation. Revenge for 11/9.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Why was such a holding method used?<span id='postcolor'>

Humiliation. Revenge for 11/9.<span id='postcolor'>

Thatnk you for the editorial comment.

Looks like that had no other way to transport them securely. If they had been cufflinked near the floor of that cargo plane, I'd hate to think what would happen when it runs into turbulence.

Looks very improvised to me out of lack of alternative, not out of humiliation.

[theavonlady 2]

Thank you Winters.

A little new item on the Kornet.

[Guest]

Since this is not a relevant discussion for this thread, I'm not going to bother answering. Look it up on the web. They were drugged, they were beaten they were denied sanitational facilities (ie. toiletes). It's all very well documented including comments from US soldiers on how they did it to make "the fuckers pay".

Back to Iraq.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ April 02 2003,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I should note that this is my opinion from the knowledge I have, before some false-patriots start some verbal clash again. Funny enough that all my prior prognostics showed to be true  <span id='postcolor'>

[Dr. Evil] Righhttt. [/Dr. Evil]

How's that slaughter of "ALL I repeat ALL" inhabitants of Basra by the Royal Marines coming along?  

Semper Fi

[Winters 1]

Iraqi civilian bodycount caused by Saddam through the years = Thousands upon Thousands.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Winters @ April 02 2003,19:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraqi civilian bodycount caused by Saddam through the years = Thousands upon Thousands.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Your point being? That a few thousands more won't do any difference or what?

[Winters 1]

my point is lost. so nevermind.