The Dogs of War

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 31 2003,21:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More fiction.<span id='postcolor'>

False Claims Litter Iraq Conflict. (Reuters)

[Warin 0]

How about we take discussions of propoganda and claims (both fact and fiction) over to the other Iraq thread. Leave this as strictly a discussion of actual military action.

Thanks all.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Mar. 31 2003,22:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about we take discussions of propoganda and claims (both fact and fiction) over to the other Iraq thread.  Leave this as strictly a discussion of actual military action.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, it depends. For example, that Reuters item I just linked to is a news update - not a political standpoint. Isn't that appropraite here?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,21:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Mar. 31 2003,221)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about we take discussions of propoganda and claims (both fact and fiction) over to the other Iraq thread.  Leave this as strictly a discussion of actual military action.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, it depends. For example, that Reuters item I just linked to is a news update - not a political standpoint. Isn't that appropraite here?<span id='postcolor'>

*bangs head on desk*

claims and whether they are fact or fiction != action reports. Please take it to the Iraq thread. Thanks.

[interstat 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Look mate, those lads are fighting for your phoney cause, so far YOUR people have killed more than the enemy, no wonder with such a flippant attitude

Let's leave the flag aside for a second. You still have FOF markings on the vehicles, plus the scimitar looks nothing like anything that the Iraqis have, it is a very distinct vehicle. The pilot was a moron and should be tried for manslaughter.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well said, about time a british soldier said what hye thinks about Americans killing our soldiers. As far as I can see their wreckless and irresponsible, if I was his family I would sue the American military for his death, as well as the soldier responsible.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are no thermals sights in an A-10.

There are no magnification optics in an A-10.

An A-10 cannot see a 12" by 18" flag on a vehicle. <span id='postcolor'>

I don't give bloody toss. If you are operating in a area that contains friendlies, you ID the target first.

You never assume it's a bad guy, unless you are working a area that has been confirmed clear of friendlies. If you cannot ID the target, you contact a FAC (Forward Air Controller), and get authorisation, or you DO NOT OPEN FIRE.

I hope they string the fucker up, or let the guys from the Scimitar have 10 minutes alone with him.

I doubt anything will happen. In '91 a A-10 blew a warrior apart, and contary to what the Pentagon said, they whisked them back to the US with a slap on the wrists.

(More Brits were killed by Americans in '91, than by Iraqis. I wonder if they are going to try for another record this time round)

[E6Hotel 0]

What punishment should be imposed on the Challenger crew that accidentally engaged another Challenger?

Semper Fi

[KingBeast 0]

I think there is quite a difference between friendly fire between tanks in a combat zone: "A UK military spokesman said it was during a period of multiple engagements with Iraqi forces on the outskirts of Basra."

(BBC News)

With only one shot fired which also according to the BBC:

"their vehicle was hit by a shell from another British tank that either missed its intended target or rebounded off it"

compared to an A10 making two passes on a convoy of 5 vehicles, one of which was marked with a British flag, all of which were carrying IFF transponders (are they transponders?) provided by the Americans.

I think the pilot was irresponsible. Its my opinion of course, but I find it harder to blame a tank crew for hitting a friendly than an aircraft that has an eagle eye view of the battlefield.

(I would say the same if it was an Abrams that engaged a Challenger)

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What punishment should be imposed on the Challenger crew that accidentally engaged another Challenger?<span id='postcolor'>

Because it happened 'Inhouse' as it were, there will be a full investigation.

If the crew engaged the target without Id'ing it first (Negligence), then they should be charged under military law for manslaughter. As they are enlisted, that will mean a spell in a military prison for then commander, and possibly the gunner.

The problem is when two different nations are involved. Its all too easy to 'brush it under the carpet', which has happened all to often.

Weilding a weapon platform is a massive responsibilty, and one you must face up to if you fuck up.

[munger 25]

I just watched the BBC 10 o'clock news and the report on this was saying how the American forces haven't received identification training for UK vehicles. But how can you possibly confuse a platoon of Scimitars in allied desert colours with all their IFF systems present, with an Iraqi T55 or BMP? Answer: you can't. That soldier who described the pilot as a cowboy was spot on. I hate to stereotype but I just can't get this image of some trigger happy, ignorant, woo-hooing Yankee flyboy out of my head. How any of the Americans who frequent this forum can make excuses for him is utterly beyond me.

[interstat 0]

Well said lads, its about time these irresponsible arseholes were told to get a bit of professionalism and responsibility.

I agree with other posties, the incident will be shoved under the carpet and that young mans life will tossed aside.

Geoff Hoon is incompetent and is not suitable for his post as defence secretary.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How any of the Americans who frequent this forum can make excuses for him is utterly beyond me.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't worry, I'm sure FSpilot will try. I hope so, because I need a good laugh about now.

[ebud 18]

After those fools from one of my old air guard units here in Illinois killed those Canadians, hopefully they'll do something a little more drastic this time around. I'm about as big of a red white and blue flag waver as you can find, but there really needs to be some sort a deterance to keep those guys from firing first and asking questions later. If not, then those few "cowboys" who give the rest a bad name may do it again. If they had the thought in the back of their minds that they'll be busting rocks for a long time if they screwup, then maybe that will make them try a little harder to get a good id. God knows the thought that they might be killing US or allied troops sure doesn't stop some of them.

[interstat 0]

Check this article out, sort of gives a good feeling for the warfare going on over in Iraq:

warfare

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Check this article out, sort of gives a good feeling for the warfare going on over in Iraq:

warfare

<span id='postcolor'>

Christ, I can see this turning into Total War soon. It must be a nightmare for the civilians and the marines. I doubt any of them want to be there.

[interstat 0]

yeah dude, the american troops are just on edge all the time.

Reading that article just shows the reality from the spin and gloss the government military is putting out on the air waves.

It reminded me of Somalia when I read some of it.

Brutal stuff!

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"It's a bad situation," said First Sergeant James Thompson, who was

running around with a 9mm pistol in his hand. "We don't know who is

shooting at us. They are even using women as scouts. The women come out

waving at us, or with their hands raised. We freeze, but the next minute

we can see how she is looking at our positions and giving them away to

the fighters hiding behind a street corner. It's very difficult to

distinguish between the fighters and civilians."

Across the square, genuine civilians were running for their lives. Many,

including some children, were gunned down in the crossfire. In a surreal

scene, a father and mother stood out on a balcony with their children in

their arms to give them a better view of the battle raging below. A few

minutes later several US mortar shells landed in front of their house. In

all probability, the family is dead.

<span id='postcolor'>

Jesus, Phil Donahue would have an Anuerysm if he read this! However, with the Iraqi's dastardly way of fighting its expected. If shes giving away positions to the enemy, she should have been shot, if the civilians were stupid enough to run into a crossfire between the enemy and US Marines, they deserved it. If a family is standing on a balcony when mortar shells are impacting near-by, sending thousands of pieces of molten metal everywhere, then they got what they deserved for their utter stupidity.

I hate to sound like an asshole, but WHY THE SHIT would stand and WATCH a battle when you are practically standing in the middle of it!? What the hell, how do we know that the man on the balcony didn't have a radio and was a spotter for Iraqi mortar fire?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"They are f****** dead, they are dead. Oh my God. Get in there. Get in

there now and pull them out," shouted a gunner in a state verging on

hysterical.

There was panic and confusion as a group of young marines, shouting and

cursing orders at one another, pulled out a maimed body.

Two men struggled to lift the body on a stretcher and into the back of a

Hummer, but it would not fit inside, so the stretcher remained almost

upright, the dead man's leg, partly blown away, dangling in the air.

"We shouldn't be here," said Lieutenant Campbell Kane, 25, who was born

in Northern Ireland. "We can't hold this. They are trying to suck us into

the city and we haven't got enough ass up here to sustain this. We need

more tanks, more helicopters."

Closer to the destroyed AAV, another young marine was transfixed with

fear and kept repeating: "Oh my God, I can't believe this. Did you see

his leg? It was blown off. It was blown off."

<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah right, It sounds like something a bunch of pussy ass highschool kids would say after they were fucking around with fireworks and one of their dumb-ass friends got hurt. Notice that they didn't call for a medivac? Again, more bullshit from an obviously left-wing source.

I doubt a bunch of well trained, veteran Marines would be going hysterical because one of their APCs took an RPG hit. Christ, its the Marine Corps not JROTC.

[interstat 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Jesus, Phil Donahue would have an Anuerysm if he read this! However, with the Iraqi's dastardly way of fighting its expected. If shes giving away positions to the enemy, she should have been shot, if the civilians were stupid enough to run into a crossfire between the enemy and US Marines, they deserved it. If a family is standing on a balcony when mortar shells are impacting near-by, sending thousands of pieces of molten metal everywhere, then they got what they deserved for their utter stupidity.

I hate to sound like an asshole, but WHY THE SHIT would stand and WATCH a battle when you are practically standing in the middle of it!? What the hell, how do we know that the man on the balcony didn't have a radio and was a spotter for Iraqi mortar fire?

<span id='postcolor'>

I understand what your saying dude, just posted the article to show what the real picture is out there, rather than the BBC, ITN, CNN, FOX outlook is.

War is dirty, bloody and above all deadly.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ April 01 2003,00:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I doubt a bunch of well trained, veteran Marines would be going hysterical because one of their APCs took an RPG hit. Christ, its the Marine Corps not JROTC.<span id='postcolor'>

They weren't vets before.  Now they are.

EDIT:  Referring to the kids, of course.

Semper Fi

[Badgerboy 0]

Quite, I imagine most of them are around the age of 18. Have you ever had someone try to kill you and your friends? You can't possibly comment until you have.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if the civilians were stupid enough to run into a crossfire between the enemy and US Marines, they deserved it.<span id='postcolor'>

Some of them were probably out of their minds with fear. They don't know where the fire is heading, and its quite likely they may stumble into incoming/outgoing fire.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hate to sound like an asshole, <span id='postcolor'>

Nah, I don't think your a 'asshole', I think your a complete twat. Get some perspective you muppet.

[interstat 0]

Have to agree with Badgerboy, fraging and wasting civilians aint gonna win the Iraqi's hearts over is it?

They were kids as far as I could grasp from the article. Seeing the brutality of war up close and personal.

Be interesting to see what the Brits are like in action?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Mar. 31 2003,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 31 2003,19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God.. there are so many factual errors in those reports, I don't know where to start:

There are no thermals sights in an A-10.  

There are no magnification optics in an A-10.  

An A-10 cannot see a 12" by 18" flag on a vehicle.<span id='postcolor'>

Look mate, those lads are fighting for your phoney cause, so far YOUR people have killed more than the enemy, no wonder with such a flippant attitude <!--emo&<!--emo&  

Let's leave the flag aside for a second. You still have FOF markings on the vehicles, plus the scimitar looks nothing like anything that the Iraqis have, it is a very distinct vehicle. The pilot was a moron and should be tried for manslaughter.

<span id='postcolor'>

WTF?  I just corrected factual errors in the article you w****r!  

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WTF? I can't correct factual errors in the article??? Jesus Christ! <span id='postcolor'>

Sorry were used to dealing with FSPilot. It came across as if you were making excuses for the pilot. If you were just pointing out flaws in the report, then I apologise.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ April 01 2003,01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have to agree with Badgerboy, fraging and wasting civilians aint gonna win the Iraqi's hearts over is it?<span id='postcolor'>

That goes for both sides.  At least with us it's unintentional.

Semper Fi

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Mar. 31 2003,19:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ April 01 2003,01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have to agree with Badgerboy, fraging and wasting civilians aint gonna win the Iraqi's hearts over is it?<span id='postcolor'>

That goes for both sides.  At least with us it's unintentional.

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

funny how our "friends" have nothing to say when the Iraqi's are killing civilians wholesale.