The Dogs of War

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Guardian article about A-10 friendly fire incident

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, speaking from his bed on the RFA Argus in the Gulf, said: "I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me."

LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading vehicle, described to Patrick Barkham of The Times how the deadly A-10 attack began.

The pilot made two swoops. "I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again," he said.

"There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke."

He added: "I'll never forget that A-10. He was about 50 metres off the ground. He circled, because he can turn on a 10 pence.

"He came back around. He was no more than 1,000 metres away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 metres away when he started firing."

On the back of one of the engineers' vehicles there was a Union Jack.

"It's about 18 inches wide by about 12 inches. For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don't know."

Packed with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, as well as grenades, rifle rounds and flammable diesel fuel tanks, the front two Scimitars exploded into flames.

One of their comrades, Lance Corporal of Horse, Matty Hull, 25, was killed.

LCoH Gerrard also criticised the A-10 for shooting when there were civilians close by.

He said: "There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 metres away when the Yank opened up.

"He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He'd just gone out on a jolly."

He added: "I'm curious about what's going to happen to the pilot.

"He's killed one of my friends and he's killed him on the second run."

Trooper Chris Finney, 18, added: "All the wagons have markings to say they are Coalition. I don't know why he shot a second time, he was that close.

"To be honest, I think they are just ignorant. I don't know if they haven't been trained or are just trigger happy."

Another of the injured, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, added: "A mistake has happened but too many things suggest it was down to pure incompetence and negligence."

Trooper Joe Woodgate, 19, the driver of the Scimitar in which gunner LCoH Hull was killed walked away with holes in his bullet-proof vest and torn clothes.

He told Audrey Gillan of The Guardian: "I don't suppose they have learned much from the first war. I can tell what an American tank looks like from every direction.

"It was the most irresponsible thing in the world. They didn't know what was going on. We were just getting on with our mission and they were messing around in the skies and saw us and said 'let's get ourselves a couple of wagons, that'll be one to tell the lads when we get back to the base'.

"How come somebody who is a top-notch Thunderbolt pilot can't tell what a British tank looks like. I think someone in the Pentagon or somewhere needs to sort something out there."

The reporter said some soldiers were also calling for the pilot to be prosecuted for manslaughter.

"I had a lot of time for Matty," said Trooper Woodgate.

"I respected him a lot and thought he was an awesome bloke. He was one of the nicest people I have ever met."

So far five British servicemen have been killed by friendly fire and four in combat with Iraqi forces. <span id='postcolor'>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,926237,00.html

RIP lads

[Longinius 1]

More brits killed by Americans than by Iraqis. Hmmm, with allies like that, who needs enemies ;P

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

There was a large Union Jack on one of the vehicules. All vehicules were UK-standard. The pilot undertook two attacks and didnt notice.

What the hell can be his justification? TOP-NOTCH-PEA-BRAIN!

I bet you will see no real trial for this guy...and even if there is one he will be suspended, thats about it!

Maybe they should mark the coalition vehicules with "good guys" and the iraqi trucks and tanks with "bad guys"

[Longinius 1]

"I bet you will see no real trial for this guy...and even if there is one he will be suspended, thats about it!"

Slap on the fingers, per SOP....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

BTW: for paladin and the rest of the Sauerkraut gang. Here is a link to a map that is updated every hour and gives information about where and how is fought right now. Kind of simplistic but considering the amount of news that there are this is all you can get.

DER SPIEGEL, map of IRAQ war, constantly updated oh and go to fullscreen mode to see the other modes...

[Guest]

Other casualties of war

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Nonesense...they gonna get new Burgerkings and McDonald Restaurants instead....

No, we are talking about real casualties here and the issue is indeed worth enough to mention. The battle of Nasirija had comparable results...when a track of civillians tried to escape they did the mistake and chose the bridge. When they ran into a Marine-infanterist he got scared and opened fire. 12 people dead, More than a half of them were children. Wait a few more weeks and it will turn into a Vietnam when Civillians are gonna be considered as anoying interruders that are no longer worth to stop a battle for.

[Guest]

I think that the destruction of historical treasures is indeed an extremely important issue. I watched a documentary yesterday about a 7th century palace in Najaf that was destroyed in an Anglo-American air strike this weekend. It was the only monument in the city that survived Genghis Kahn's grandson's invasion of the area.

It's very sad that people die, but people reproduce. These destroyed historical monuments are irreplacable. It's a loss for all humanity.

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 31 2003,12:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: for paladin and the rest of the Sauerkraut gang. Here is a link to a map that is updated every hour and gives information about where and how is fought right now. Kind of simplistic but considering the amount of news that there are this is all you can get.

DER SPIEGEL, map of IRAQ war, constantly updated oh and go to fullscreen mode to see the other modes...<span id='postcolor'>

SAUERKRAUT??!? Albert, if you weren`t a vegetable too, I`d smack you!!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 31 2003,13:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There was a large Union Jack on one of the vehicules. All vehicules were UK-standard. The pilot undertook two attacks and didnt notice.

What the hell can be his justification? TOP-NOTCH-PEA-BRAIN!<span id='postcolor'>

Quote from the article:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He was about 500 metres away when he started firing."<span id='postcolor'>

What was visibility like?

Let's assume it was a beautiful day. Was the flag flying in the wind parallel with the direction of the vehicle? That could likely be the case. If the attack was from directly in front or behind, then the flag would hardly be visible.

If the above is true, then it's very sad but are you sure you wouldn't make the same mistake?

Another possibility: The pilot was indeed ignorant what a British Flag looked like. Now, without making jokes about how US college students don't know where Canada is, I would assume that all pilots have included in their training elementary methods for ID'ing friendly versus enemy vehicles plus identifying essential markings such as flags, insignias, etc.

So, the real explanation might lie elsewhere or it may simply be another sad case of FF.

[theavonlady 2]

Street Battles in Hindiyah. AP (JPost subscribers only)

Similar:

US Troops Battle Iraqis South of Baghdad. Reuters

Revealing:

Iraqi deserters reveal executions. AP (Jpost subscribers only)

[theavonlady 2]

Reuters newswire:

NBC fires Peter Arnett.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,16:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reuters newswire:

NBC fires Peter Arnett.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, he could always get a job at Iraqi state television

No, but seriously, it's really sad when reporters get sacked for not telling the desired story. So much for the freedom of press.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 31 2003,18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,161)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reuters newswire:

NBC fires Peter Arnett.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, he could always get a job at Iraqi state television <span id='postcolor'>

They told him they might have a position abandoned - er - vacant soon.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, but seriously, it's really sad when reporters get sacked for not telling the desired story. So much for the freedom of press. <span id='postcolor'>

I disagree.

His tone, more than his content, really did sound like he was broadcasting on behalf of the Iraqis. In this case, I think a US network during wartime did the right thing to dump him.

Hope he has a return ticket.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,17:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His tone, more than his content, really did sound like he was broadcasting on behalf of the Iraqis. In this case, I think a US network during wartime did the right thing to dump him.<span id='postcolor'>

First MSNBC is a commercial channel and should not in theory be bothered about what the official governement position is.

Second, freedom of speech is very essential in a democracy and by preventing it you are discrediting the very system you are trying to impose on Iraq. Starting to censor things that you do not like to hear is a dangerous path to choose.

Edit: Frankly, I'm not surprised though. The rethorics used by both sides is very similar. Coming from a dictatorship like Iraq it's not surprising. Coming from USA so directly is an eye opener.

Iraq: Mercenary assasins!

USA: Terrorist thugs!

[Die Alive 0]

First the Arnett guy, now Geraldo Rivera is being expelled from Iraq for drawing a map in the sand to demonstrate troop movements, complete with city names.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">U.S. military officials say Fox News Channel correspondent Geraldo Rivera will be expelled from Iraq after violating the cardinal rule of war reporting Monday by giving away crucial details of future military operations during a live broadcast.<span id='postcolor'>

-=Die Alive=-

[bn880 5]

Yes Denoir I mean if Arnett said negative things about the Iraqi defense plan, he would never get fired for it. It shows that this war is being fought at home through lies and censorship.

[Die Alive 0]

Fake "war correspondent" has cover blown

SOFA KING WE TODD DID. lol

-=Die Alive=-

[Transfunsel 0]

if you want more realistic information about the war than these american desinformation (tv) channels go to http://www.aeronautics.ru

[PitViper 0]

God.. there are so many factual errors in those reports, I don't know where to start:

There are no thermals sights in an A-10.

There are no magnification optics in an A-10.

An A-10 cannot see a 12" by 18" flag on a vehicle.

[Schoeler 0]

Is it me, or is this thread completely degenerating into politics?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 31 2003,13:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is it me, or is this thread completely degenerating into politics?<span id='postcolor'>

yes

[theavonlady 2]

Obviously, the coalition must have bombed this town with laughing gas.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 31 2003,19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God.. there are so many factual errors in those reports, I don't know where to start:

There are no thermals sights in an A-10.  

There are no magnification optics in an A-10.  

An A-10 cannot see a 12" by 18" flag on a vehicle.<span id='postcolor'>

Look mate, those lads are fighting for your phoney cause, so far YOUR people have killed more than the enemy, no wonder with such a flippant attitude

Let's leave the flag aside for a second. You still have FOF markings on the vehicles, plus the scimitar looks nothing like anything that the Iraqis have, it is a very distinct vehicle. The pilot was a moron and should be tried for manslaughter.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Mar. 31 2003,14:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 31 2003,197)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God.. there are so many factual errors in those reports, I don't know where to start:

There are no thermals sights in an A-10.

There are no magnification optics in an A-10.

An A-10 cannot see a 12" by 18" flag on a vehicle.<span id='postcolor'>

Look mate, those lads are fighting for your phoney cause, so far YOUR people have killed more than the enemy, no wonder with such a flippant attitude

Let's leave the flag aside for a second. You still have FOF markings on the vehicles, plus the scimitar looks nothing like anything that the Iraqis have, it is a very distinct vehicle. The pilot was a moron and should be tried for manslaughter.

<span id='postcolor'>

Exronin, those are just claims that they have killed more Brits than the enemy as far as I'm concerned. Frankly the ratio of accidents v.s. combat loses is pure BS. I'm not stupid, I don't believe it, especially since war report after war report from the COalition has been proven false by Iraqis and others. Last time I remember laughing my ass of that they captured a General in Basra. Some didn't believe me and what do we find out today? More fiction.