The Dogs of War

[ran 0]

i didn't dream ..... i saw a denoir's reply ...... hmm ... i'm going mad .. lol

anyway , denoir , look at the laucher and the warhead shape , it's not a TOW ? but a Milan launcher and a Milan missile

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 23 2003,20:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">GRRRRR mffffff...WHAT IS IT THEN..can I get a honest authentic true realistic precise errorless answer?<span id='postcolor'>

it's a Milan 2 or 3 rocket

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">B52 is taking off, Hmm i smell carpet bombing coming?<span id='postcolor'>

How many times does it have to be said, and how much evidence or lack thereof has to be presented that the U.S. is not conducting Arc Light strikes (carpet bombing)?

B-52's have now been equipped to carry large numbers of JDAMs and ALCMs. These are precision, satellite guided weapons. Tell me, have you seen any footage of areas 5X10 miles in size being suddenly obliterated? Because this is what an Arc Light strike looks like. No, instead, you have only seen footage of individual buildings and compounds being precisely targeted and destroyed. There is a serious lack of evidence about carpet bombing, and I think all sides and perspectives viewing this war would agree, there is no evidence yet that it has occurred. U.S. strategy is to preserve as much of the Iraqi infrastructure as is possible so rebuilding efforts are not as costly, and the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people can be more easily won.

As for the woodland camo question from earlier in the thread, these are the MOPP anti-chemical suits being worn by all the soldiers. Apparently, not all of the troops were issued newer desert camo MOPP-4 suits yet. Note the sealed pant legs and cuffs.

Also, guys you need to remeber that there is a very distinct difference between the terms "captured" and "controlled" which our illustrious media does not always seem capable of making. I've seen military spokesmen saying that towns such as Um Qasr and Al Nasiriyah have been captured. They are not controlled. This means there are still pockets of resistance that need to be systematically eliminated when the time permits. This is why you are seeing sporadic attacks by Iraqis who remain in these isolated pockets. It maybe weeks before the cities are controlled, since the overall strategy seems to be to drive on Baghdad and take the big fight to the Iraqi capital in the hopes of shortening the length of the war. Resistance can always be flushed out of the less strategically important towns later.

Also, I agree that we have not yet seen significant enegagements with the Republican Guard units yet. The RGs were embedded somewhat into the regular units in hopes of stiffening resistance, which seems to be somewhat effective, as resistance on occassion is heavier than was expected. I think many of the RG units are going to put up a good fight. I hope not, but logic tells me they will.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For silly me...what is he firing there<span id='postcolor'>

That almost looks like a TOW.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

yeah Denoir is out, I saw him cheating too! No but I think it is a Milan and yes the americans have indeed purchased this mostly european invention

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Mar. 23 2003,20:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">anyway , denoir , look at the laucher and the warhead shape , it's not a TOW ? but a Milan launcher and a Milan missile<span id='postcolor'>

I know. That's why I deleted my post I didn't look at the launcher when I posted it, just on the warhead, and there are several TOW-2s that look like that.

Then I saw the launcher and realized that it indeed was a Milan.

[ran 0]

for those who are not yet convinced

-edit-

and i don't imagine any modern infantry troop carrying a TOW ATGM fire station around .....

[Schoeler 0]

Also, the troops firing it look like Brits to me.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 23 2003,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, the troops firing it look like Brits to me.<span id='postcolor'>

they are , i don't see anybody else whow would be wearing desert DPM in iraq at the moment other that UK forces

[FSPilot 0]

I want to be a mod only so I can delete the stupid posts I make.

[MLF 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,19:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While I appreciate your sarcasm, the fact is that if you take a map of Irage and look to where major coalition sources have already reached in Iraq, they are not doing bad at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Moving through the desert is no big feat. They have failed to secure the cities on the way. These captures of the US servicemen was just the first taste of what is to come if they do not secure the territory that they are capturing.

They are right now basing their whole strategy on one assumption: that the Iraqis hate Saddam and as soon as they get a chance that they will stop fighting. Rumsfeld confirmed today that so far the battles faught have been with regular troops only - no Republican Guard.

They might very well get to Baghdad soon, but what then? The Iraqis are not surrendering as expected and they are not greeting the coalition forces as liberators but as enemies. Big heap of problems there. So, you have a hostile surrounding and you are not securing the ground you pass. The result: you'll get attacked from the sides and from the rear. The logistics units are weak targets and the Iraqi will be able to show bodies of dead Americans each day. How long do you think the American public will stomach that?

Now, this is how it looks today. I'm not saying that its not going to change tomorrow, but today there is certainly no reason for cheering if you support the coalition forces.<span id='postcolor'>

which main Towns have they failed to Capture/Surround

[FSPilot 0]

Baghdad.

[ran 0]

Washington ? Tokyo ? Glasgow ? Berlin ? Lisboa ? Venice ?Rio de Janeiro ? Mexico ?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MLF @ Mar. 23 2003,21:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">which main Towns have they failed to Capture/Surround<span id='postcolor'>

Towns that have benn attacked but are still in Iraqi hands: Basra, Nasiraya and Najaf. The only one that has been captured is Umm Qasr but it is still not secured and there is still fighting.

The decision to not even try to capture Nasiraya is a dangerous one since the supply lines towards Baghdad go by and the supply units will be exposed (as seen today by the five killed and four captured US servicemen on Iraqi TV).

[PFC_Mike 2]

Berlin and Paris, mainly. I understand that the 3rd Infantry is very close to extracting a surrender from Oslo too.

Any word on the treacherous SOB in Kuwait? Is he dead yet? Also, any news on Iraqi bio/chem?

What does the US control? Have we finaly cleared the Umm Qasr compund out yet?

[PFC_Mike 2]

Indeed, it was a suppy convoy. 10 KIA, 12 MIA. But we are close to controlling An Nasiriyah

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....cid=514

Any update on the Ba'athists shooting up the Tigris? Is the pilot dead or alive?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ Mar. 23 2003,21:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Any update on the Ba'athists shooting up the Tigris? Is the pilot dead or alive?<span id='postcolor'>

the question is was there a pilot ?

[MLF 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,21:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MLF @ Mar. 23 2003,215)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">which main Towns have they failed to Capture/Surround<span id='postcolor'>

Towns that have benn attacked but are still in Iraqi hands: Basra, Nasiraya and Najaf. The only one that has been captured is Umm Qasr but it is still not secured and there is still fighting.

The decision to not even try to capture Nasiraya is a dangerous one since the supply lines towards Baghdad go by and the supply units will be exposed (as seen today by the five killed and four captured US servicemen on Iraqi TV).<span id='postcolor'>

Basra is totally surrounded, there is no need to go into the towns and cause uneeded damage to civilians/infastructure if they pose no immediat threat, also most major citites are surrounded or are in the process of being captured.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PFC_Mike Posted on Mar. 23 2003,21:16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Berlin and Paris, mainly. I understand that the 3rd Infantry is very close to extracting a surrender from Oslo too.  

Any word on the treacherous SOB in Kuwait? Is he dead yet? Also, any news on Iraqi bio/chem?

What does the US control? Have we finaly cleared the Umm Qasr compund out yet? <span id='postcolor'>

There are now 2 shitbirds in custody.  Historically, someone who does something like this in war-time is executed by firing squad following a successful conviction by a military court marshall.  We'll see what happens.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">denoir Posted on Mar. 23 2003,21:14

The decision to not even try to capture Nasiraya is a dangerous one since the supply lines towards Baghdad go by and the supply units will be exposed (as seen today by the five killed and four captured US servicemen on Iraqi TV).<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir, I'm not sure they have decided not to capture Al Nasiriyah, I've heard that heavy fighting is still occurring there.  Apparently the Iraqi forces inside the town have forced women and children into the streets and onto the bridges to act as human shields.  This has presented coalition forces from using close air support against the Iraqis.  It seems CAS strikes were ordered and then cancelled when the civilians were forced out.  Now they are waiting to more slowly and systematically flush the iraqi units in the town out of the houses.  This is going to be a messy and hard fight.

Damn typos!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 23 2003,21:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are now 2 shitbirds in custody.  Historically, someone who does something like this in war-time is executed by firing squad following a successful conviction by a military court marshall.  We'll see what happens.<span id='postcolor'>

What does the UCMJ say about such actions in a war zone?

I am not a proponent of capital punishment, but a soldier who has taken oaths doing such a thing...well, if military justice says it's a firing squad offence, I wouldnt argue for a minute.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pentagon sources said the dead soldiers appeared to have been executed.<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1084778,00.html

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(WarinPosted on Mar. 23 2003,21:27)

What does the UCMJ say about such actions in a war zone?

I am not a proponent of capital punishment, but a soldier who has taken oaths doing such a thing...well, if military justice says it's a firing squad offence, I wouldnt argue for a minute.<span id='postcolor'>

The UCMJ requires a trial, but I think the penalties change during war-time. I know that during World War II soldiers convicted of desertion, murder to avoid combat and similar offenses were executed by firing squad or hanging.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Executed..maybe because in the eyes of the Iraqis the americans are not POWs but terorists.... no I know this is a tasteless humor I come forward with.

My concern right now is rather that if it takes several marines lifes to take a city of 10.000 inhabitants....then how much is it gonna take to conquer a multi-million metropol like Baghdad? Do the calculation but the result might be slightly frightning.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 23 2003,21:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, I'm not sure they have decided not to capture Al Nasiriyah, I've heard that heavy fighting is still occurring there.<span id='postcolor'>

About an hour ago they said on the CNN web page that "the marines have opted for not invading Nasiriyah in favour of a faster push towards Baghdad". In a post earlier I intially quoted them exactly, but later removed it. Right now they don't have that on the web page but are instead saying that "U.S. suffers 'numerous' casualties near Nasiriyah".

Fog of war.

Seeing however how things have developed in Basra and Umm Qasr, I don't see why Nasiriyah would be any different.

One important coalition success however is securing that bridge over Euphrat. I'm surprised that the Iraqi didn't blow it up when they had the chance. It would have forced engineering and logistics troops to the front which would have made them convenient targets.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Basra is totally surrounded, there is no need to go into the towns and cause uneeded damage to civilians/infastructure if they pose no immediat threat, also most major citites are surrounded or are in the process of being captured. <span id='postcolor'>

Basra may be surrounded but it is still in Iraqi control and will probably remain so unless the coalition forces decide to not give a damn about the civilians. Even then it's questionable if MOUT can be avoided. As for "most major cities" - the only major city is Basra and it's been has been "in the process of being captured" for days now, without any success. Nasiriyah isn't going well and neither is Najaf.

[Schoeler 0]

ABC news and PBS are reporting about the fighting still occuring at Al Nasiriyah. It seems things are a mess. Panicked civilians caught between Iraqi units who don't give a shit about their welfare and Marines who are forced to care about them to the point of not being able to effectively engage the Iraqis. If this happens in Baghdad, its going to be a very long and messy war.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-In fact i was going to make another post detailing the opposite possibility before some argument about a milan broke out.

I do not think i am under many illusions about this conflict and i do not think i am being -mindlessly- optimistic. I am well aware of the possibility of things going wrong in a big way. I was simply pointing out in my previous post that so far things -have not gone wrong in a big way-.

That is not to say i dont think things CAN go wrong in a big way given the current situation or indeed this could be where things start to go balls up.

I do not support anything else in this war (ie the politics etc) but victory for the troops of my country and the allies.

This is simply the best way of minimising the suffering now that it has been started (not to mention leaving Saddam in power now that people have died to remove him would be obscene)

"Probably in the outsikrts since Basra is still in the hands of Iraq."

Basra is a large city and some parts have been in coalition hands ,or rather beneath coalition tank treads, whilst other parts have seen no sign of any coalition forces at all(maybe bombings). As i see it the attempt to comprehensively occupy Basra has not thus far been made and is maybe only now starting to be made.

However a large US marines force has already been THROUGH the city on the drive north. There are entrenched elements in Basra but they do not have anything like comprehensive control of the city as such (nor do the coalition).

You say its only regulars in Basra but i have heard

TV reporters with the British military around Basra report  Hussein Paramilitaries are operating out of Basra university.

I am aware of the lessons of history. If i wish to remain optimistic it is perhaps partly motivated by a desire not to see thousands of my countrymen and women die and tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqis die. Sorry if this dissappoints anyone.

In fact even if i appear optimistic about this war i think there will be a hell of time once this war is 'over'(assuming the best about the current operation)

. I suspect that if there is largely a defeat of the Iraqis ,a 'victory' will be declared... but the killings will not end, Iraq is a hell of a country to police. Not least if tens of thousands of Saddams paramilities remain in opposition even if his regime collapses as i suspect at least a proportion will.

i would say one of the main things characterising this war so far has been the massively reported widespread confusion and patchyness of reports.

Some soldiers have surrendered immediatly , some civilians have cheered the Americans on while other regular soldiers have fought long and hard. Nationalism (or arguably false nationalism) may play a part but i still think the loyal nationalists in the Iraqi regular army are a definate minority. I may be proved wrong.

Even if say 'only' 15 or 20% of the Iraqi population are die hard nationalists who will see this attack as a hostile invasion that could be very bad. whats 15% of 6 million? (pop of Baghdad)

There may be suicide bombers and will be urban militias fighting i suspect (or fear) for quite a long time to come.