The Dogs of War

[FSPilot 0]

also remember he said hes only heard of it, nothing confirmed yet.

i dont even think there have been 30 US casualties in the whole war. even if there have been, they wouldnt of all come from the same base, or the same branch for that matter.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 23 2003,07:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i dont even think there have been 30 US casualties in the whole war.  even if there have been, they wouldnt of all come from the same base, or the same branch for that matter.<span id='postcolor'>

Taking a wild guess, I'd wager that at least 50-100 coalition soldiers have been killed considering the number of troops deployed and the resistance that they've met. Remeber during GW1 it took them almost a month to admit to any casualties.

The truth is we don't have any information on the subject and all we can do make educated guesses. The strongest indicator of casualties are that the only ones reported were in cases where a reporter was in the direct vicinity of th killed. The other indicator is the repeatedly repelled offensives on Basra, Umm Qasr and Nasiriaya. It's quite obvious from a military point of view. We can therefor deduce that there have been considerable casualties, but we don't know what "considrable" means since that limit is set on how much operational casualties the coalition forces feel that they can afford on one attack. It could be one person and it could be a hundred.

The only media reports we have been getting on the subject is the standard Pentagon propganda, which any sane person disregards and some reports from the Iranians (probably also biased).

And since Garth obviously lives in a military community I'd take his word before your unfounded speculations. If you want to make an estimate you have to make an analysis of the situation that would support your claim.

[Guest]

CNN reports a british aircraft downed.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,07:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All is not quiet (yet) in Um Qasr.<span id='postcolor'>

Strange they are still fighting in a 'captured' city.

If this is the fight that the regular Iraqis are putting up, what are the Republican Guard guys going to fight like.

This doesnt bode well, and I hope that perhaps there is some truth to the attempts to subvert the RG generals.

Otherwise it could be really bloody on both sides

[hellfish6 7]

Turn on MSNBC, Fox News, CNN or BBC right now (7am GMT, I think it is) to watch tanks and Marines in Um Qasr. They've been fighting LIVE for 15 minutes so far and it's still going... amazing stuff.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,08:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CNN reports a british aircraft downed.<span id='postcolor'>

Not in combat. Crashed on the way back in.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Turn to Sky News right now if you can- one of their camera man is getting some shots of one of the small firefights in Umm Qasr- looks like it's wrapping up; some tanks rolled in and lit up a building that small arms fire was coming from. Very solid work- you should have seen the obesrvatory tower get nailed.

edit- the situation is not at all fluid, it just looks like a small group of light infantry playing chicked with a tank company. They could just call in an airstrike and flatten the entire area, but they're choosing the discretionary route which speaks volumes for the lengths Coalition troops are going to minimize collateral damage.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,09:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Turn to Sky News right now if you can- one of their camera man is getting some shots of one of the small firefights in Umm Qasr- looks like it's wrapping up; some tanks rolled in and lit up a building that small arms fire was coming from. Very solid work- you should have seen the obesrvatory tower get nailed.<span id='postcolor'>

Can you convert it to a PBO?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

lol

This is great stuff though. I imagine it must be surreal for those Marines to be lying out on this road watching this thing unfold, while two Brits sit in the back yammering on like it's a damn golf match lol.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

They aren't even really using their cannon too much. Mostly just .50 cal fire, trying to catch one of the buggers lying behind a wall that's just a little too thin...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol

This is great stuff though. I imagine it must be surreal for those Marines to be lying out on this road watching this thing unfold, while two Brits sit in the back yammering on like it's a damn golf match lol.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, thought of that too. A bit of excessive reporting, but I suppose it makes good TV.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the BBC Baghdad cam is located under the "sport" section

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/sport/live/sol_now1.ram<span id='postcolor'>

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,08:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A bit of excessive reporting, but I suppose it makes good TV.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the BBC Baghdad cam is located under the "sport" section  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/sport/live/sol_now1.ram<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. It has occurred to me that reporters are paid per word spoken, which would explain their verbosity.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,08:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A bit of excessive reporting, but I suppose it makes good TV.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the BBC Baghdad cam is located under the "sport" section  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/sport/live/sol_now1.ram<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. It has occurred to me that reporters are paid per word spoken, which would explain their verbosity.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? I had no idea. What a horrible way of doing things. All talk but they're not actually saying anything!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This could tie up alot of loose ends- a Republican Guard officer captured earlier in the day (in Umm Qasr) provided the intelligence that there are about 120 troops in the compound being lit up at the moment (probably a few less by now). I think the most interesting part of this report is that there are apparently RG units in Umm Qasr, which would mean that there are possibly RG units in Basra as well. Sudenly this stubborn resistance seems to be making sense.

lol, this is great. There's one Marine directly between the camera and the target, and he keeps glancing back at it. I think another 15 minutes and he's going to wave

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,01:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This could tie up alot of loose ends- a Republican Guard officer captured earlier in the day (in Umm Qasr) provided the intelligence that there are about 120 troops in the compound being lit up at the moment (probably a few less by now). I think the most interesting part of this report is that there are apparently RG units in Umm Qasr, which would mean that there are possibly RG units in Basra as well. Sudenly this stubborn resistance seems to be making sense.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, we don't know if they're actually combat RG units. As someone mentioned earlier, the RG seems to be very similar to the Nazi SS - they have special police units, combat units, etc. The RG officer they captured could have been in a "stay-behind" special forces unit or he could have been a traffic policeman or even a divisional veterinarian. You don't know...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Mar. 23 2003,08:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, we don't know if they're actually combat RG units. As someone mentioned earlier, the RG seems to be very similar to the Nazi SS - they have special police units, combat units, etc. The RG officer they captured could have been in a "stay-behind" special forces unit or he could have been a traffic policeman or even a divisional veterinarian. You don't know...<span id='postcolor'>

But the point is that where there is one, there are invariably more. Personally, I had heard nothing about RG anywhere south of Basra, so i was really wondering about the fighting spirit of these supposedly ragtag regular formations- especially considering a large number did behave as expected.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,08:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Mar. 23 2003,08:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, we don't know if they're actually combat RG units. As someone mentioned earlier, the RG seems to be very similar to the Nazi SS - they have special police units, combat units, etc. The RG officer they captured could have been in a "stay-behind" special forces unit or he could have been a traffic policeman or even a divisional veterinarian. You don't know...<span id='postcolor'>

But the point is that where there is one, there are invariably more. Personally, I had heard nothing about RG anywhere south of Basra, so i was really wondering about the fighting spirit of these supposedly ragtag regular formations- especially considering a large number did behave as expected.<span id='postcolor'>

On the contrary, all media and military reports so far insist that these are all just regular units, which is the bad news. A very flawed intelligence estimation of the fighting will of the Iraqi. So far all reports have confirmed that the RG is protecting Baghdad, waiting for the final fight.

The capture of one allegedly RG soldier doesn't change the fact that all the other captured and defeted units so far have been regulars and reserves.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Mar. 23 2003,08:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, we don't know if they're actually combat RG units. As someone mentioned earlier, the RG seems to be very similar to the Nazi SS - they have special police units, combat units, etc. The RG officer they captured could have been in a "stay-behind" special forces unit or he could have been a traffic policeman or even a divisional veterinarian. You don't know...<span id='postcolor'>

But the point is that where there is one, there are invariably more. Personally, I had heard nothing about RG anywhere south of Basra, so i was really wondering about the fighting spirit of these supposedly ragtag regular formations- especially considering a large number did behave as expected.<span id='postcolor'>

If these are RG guys that are getting hosed right now (it's amazing to watch this, isn't it?) I'm willing to bet you a case of Schlitz that they're a special forces unit.

I'm really worried that I'm going to see a hail of RPGs come out at these M-1s.

[Guest]

BBC reports that the RAF aircraft was probably shot down by an American missile.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,08:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the contrary, all media and military reports so far insist that these are all just regular units, which is the bad news. A very flawed intelligence estimation of the fighting will of the Iraqi. So far all reports have confirmed that the RG is protecting Baghdad, waiting for the final fight.

The capture of one allegedly RG soldier doesn't change the fact that all the other captured and defeted units so far have been regulars and reserves.<span id='postcolor'>

Work with me here Denoir- I can't do any analysis if you keep on busting in and telling me that my intelligence is wrong, because it's all I got lol

Anyhow, those M1s are going to boogey into that compound, and depending on what they see, they'll boogey back and call for arty and/or airstrikes, and then they'll send in those grunts to clear it out. Give that 30 minutes on the inside and several more hours if things go to hell.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,08:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BBC reports that the RAF aircraft was probably shot down by an American missile.<span id='postcolor'>

*starts whistling 'Back in the Saddle Again'*

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 23 2003,08:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Work with me here Denoir- I can't do any analysis if you keep on busting in and telling me that my intelligence is wrong, because it's all I got lol<span id='postcolor'>

Lol ok. I'll say this - according to our vast current intelligence, feminist smurfs might, as far as we know, very well be involved in the fighting around Basra.

Edit: BBC says that the captured soldier says that 120 RG units are holding the Iraqi positions. It hasn't been confirmed.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok, recap

CH-46 down: 16 casualties(?) or was it 12?

Marines attacking Basra: 1

stepping on mines: 2

ambushed hummer: 4

another crash 8 miles before Kuwait-Iraq border: 7

sum them up: 26-30 already.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 23 2003,09:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BBC reports that the RAF aircraft was probably shot down by an American missile.<span id='postcolor'>

A Patriot, to be more specific.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Well, it's gone quiet- I'm assuming that those Hummers and LAVs lined up are the eventual assault force, as that group with the correspondents is too far away across open ground to handle it. I figure that after the several hours of intense fire that the area has been subjected to, that either the number was severely inflated (probably), or that the grunts are going to find alot of KIAs.