N. korea intercepts us spy plane

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Whoami88 @ Mar. 07 2003,03:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 07 2003,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.<span id='postcolor'>

Seriously, have you read anything before you spitted that off, the plane was in international waters.<span id='postcolor'>

Was it shot down or did it crash?

Sorry

[Supah 0]

yes and? The plane was obviously not there to drop rosepedals? It was spying. ok so it wasnt in NK airspace ... I can hardly blame the NK for intercepting planes that are being up to no good. If that were reason for condamnation you should see how many Tupolev bears NATO intercepted during the cold war and at MUCH closer distances then this!

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.<span id='postcolor'>

The Reconnaissance plane was in INTERNATIONAL airspace.  If anything the North Koreans were in the wrong as they locked onto an unarmed plane flying in international airspace.

And the issue isn't that the Americans were intercepted.  This is a common occurence, it happens frequently in China.  The issue was that the North Koreans hadn't done this for 30 years, and that they had a missile lock on the airplane.  Plus ,given the amount of rhetoric coming out of Pyongyang as of late, it wasn't just an interception.  It was (yet another) an ill conceived statement.  

Last time this happened the North Koreans shot down the Americans plane and killed 30+ crewmembers.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Mar. 07 2003,03:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.<span id='postcolor'>

The Reconnaissance plane was in INTERNATIONAL airspace.  If anything they were in the wrong as they locked onto an unarmed plane flying in international airspace.

And the issue isn't that they were intercepted.  This is a common occurence, it happens frequently in China.  The issue was that they hadn't done this for 30 years, and that they had a missile lock on the airplane.  Plus ,given the amount of rhetoric coming out of Pyongyang as of late, it wasn't just an interception.  It was (yet another) an ill conceived statement.  

Last time this happened they shot down the plane and killed 30+ crewmembers.<span id='postcolor'>

not wanting to draw this offtopic but is the current USA regime being really that sensible about this? They know how the NK regime are ... they know how they are going to react yet GWB is continuing on his path. He SHOULD know better then this. He is pushing the NK regime to the brink of war (i am fully aware the NK regime are a bunch of not nice people and arent fit to run a country)

[FSPilot 0]

Here's the thing about international airspace: any given nation's rules dont have any jurisdiction. It'd be like me putting a "no loitering" sign in the bathroom, then arresting you for loitering in the kitchen.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,18:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Mar. 07 2003,036)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.<span id='postcolor'>

The Reconnaissance plane was in INTERNATIONAL airspace.  If anything they were in the wrong as they locked onto an unarmed plane flying in international airspace.

And the issue isn't that they were intercepted.  This is a common occurence, it happens frequently in China.  The issue was that they hadn't done this for 30 years, and that they had a missile lock on the airplane.  Plus ,given the amount of rhetoric coming out of Pyongyang as of late, it wasn't just an interception.  It was (yet another) an ill conceived statement.  

Last time this happened they shot down the plane and killed 30+ crewmembers.<span id='postcolor'>

not wanting to draw this offtopic but is the current USA regime being really that sensible about this? They know how the NK regime are ... they know how they are going to react yet GWB is continuing on his path. He SHOULD know better then this. He is pushing the NK regime to the brink of war (i am fully aware the NK regime are a bunch of not nice people and arent fit to run a country)<span id='postcolor'>

The reconnaissaince flights aren't new though, they've been going on for years. That's how the North Koreans new where they could intercept. Because of fuel issues the North Koreans had to put alot of planning into it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reconnaissaince flights aren't new though, they've been going on for years. That's how the North Koreans new where they could intercept. Because of fuel issues the North Koreans had to put alot of planning into it.<span id='postcolor'>

In a situation like this, it is absolutely critical that we have up to date intelligence on those wacky communists, specifically on ballistic missile testing. That is, incidentally, what the RC-135 (Cobra Ball) is for.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">COBRA BALL is an Air Force airborne intelligence platform (RC-135) which carries infrared telescopes for tracking ballistic-missile tests at long range. COBRA BALL operates out of Offutt AFB NE and deploys to various locations around the world.

<span id='postcolor'>

It's not like we were trying to listen in on Kim Jong-Il while he's singing in the shower; we're making sure that if and when NK tests a long-range ICBM, we'll be able to fully ascertain the missile's capability in terms of payload and range.

[Supah 0]

Well i wasnt reffering to the current infringements on flights outside NK airspace as such. I understand that this isnt the desired way of behaving but never the less i feel that this is the path the GWB regime is forcing the NK Regime into. Though looking across "the big pond" at this i found it funny (funny being mb not the correct term) It seemed like the NK regime was doing its utmost to offend the GWB regime while the GWB regime didnt want to play ball at first. Though sending the b-1's and B-52's to guam might be seen as preparations for a war against NK one should also remember that in the last gulf war B-52 missions were flown from mainland USA so this could just be for the war on Iraq (just placing units closer to the theater of operations i.e. iraq). Not what CNN says a possible prelude to an attack on NK, btw fun how CNN who is supposed to be the evil USA propaganda machine according to some is so misinformed! If it was propaganda they would be telling people it would be for an attack on iraq, proves that line of thinking wrong.

[Othin 0]

I think the movement of the B-1s and B-52s was a good one. It really is a political gesture since, as supah pointed out, the B-52s could fly from the US, it works on so many levels.

- Sends a message to Kim Jong Il that we're not completely ignoring him.

- It also makes him realize that though he many have an impressive Army, he is wide open to air attacks.

- It sends a message to countries in the region, especially China, that time is drawing to a close where we're willing to work on this multilaterally.

- This is China's chance, in my opinion, to step up on the world stage and prove that they can handle difficult political situations. If North Korea has nukes and nothing is done about it, then South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan are going to soon follow. This is bad for everyone, especially China.

- It also works out if the war in Iraq happens.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the movement of the B-1s and B-52s was a good one.  It really is a political gesture since, as supah pointed out, the B-52s could fly from the US, it works on so many levels.

- Sends a message to Kim Jong Il that we're not completely ignoring him.

- It also makes him realize that though he many have an impressive Army, he is wide open to air attacks.

<span id='postcolor'> This in a way makes me fearfull, kim song ill is off on his own version of logic. What you and i see as perfectly logical and sending messages he sees as a threat. I think we should not be sending kim song il messages in this way. mb not in any way. He would simply misinterpret them. Let him be, we (NATO) are to devided to act against him now, i feel he is the real foe not saddam. This man is truelly dangerous, much more then saddam!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- It sends a message to countries in the region, especially China, that time is drawing to a close where we're willing to work on this multilaterally.

- This is China's chance, in my opinion, to step up on the world stage and prove that they can handle difficult political situations.  If North Korea has nukes and nothing is done about it, then South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan are going to soon follow.  This is bad for everyone, especially China.<span id='postcolor'> True but in the end do we want china to become a force to be reconned with? Do we want them to have international political power beyond of what they allready have? These are the people who would displace millions against there will for their three gorges project. Not asking them to leave thier houses but ORDERING them to leave. Should we as western powers want them as "allies" ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- It also works out if the war in Iraq happens.<span id='postcolor'> I stongly believe or hope that is what these planes are there for. If not, remember the last war on the korean peninsula and china's role in that. Does the US want to face china on the battlefield? Times have changed sure but that doesnt mean things have changed.

another post saved by evil mod from quote tag

[ralphwiggum 6]

great point Othin

NK has been known to do a lot of provactive things, and my sense is that their first generation revolutionaries who committed Korean war are now getting impatient and is doing odd things, while Kim Jongil is giving silent approval.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,18:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> This in a way makes me fearfull, kim song ill is off on his own version of logic. What you and i see as perfectly logical and sending messages he sees as a threat. I think we should not be sending kim song il messages in this way. mb not in any way. He would simply misinterpret them. Let him be, we (NATO) are to devided to act against him now, i feel he is the real foe not saddam. This man is truelly dangerous, much more then saddam! <span id='postcolor'>

I definately agree that Kim Jong Il and his regime are not at all stable.  But I also think that he understands the intent of the message.  I think if we continued to ignore him, it would spurn him to even greater acts of lunacy.  I think this was a meaningful first step.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,18:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> True but in the end do we want china to become a force to be reconned with? Do we want them to have international political power beyond of what they allready have? These are the people who would displace millions against there will for their three gorges project. Not asking them to leave thier houses but ORDERING them to leave. Should we as western powers want them as "allies" ?<span id='postcolor'>

China is already a force to be reckoned with.  The problem with China's political power is that it is all force backed.  We have not had an occasion to see China use diplomacy to solve a problem.

I also fully agree with you that China has a horrible human rights record and it needs to be dealt with before they can truely become in international player.  But, foregoing that a major political upheavel happens in the next few years, they're going to become more and more important in international politics.  I think China will definately become an important ally.  To think any other way would lead to another cold war (well in all reality a hot one) so I honestly hope that things work out.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 06 2003,18:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I stongly believe or hope that is what these planes are there for. If not, remember the last war on the korean peninsula and china's role in that. Does the US want to face china on the battlefield? Times have changed sure but that doesnt mean things have changed. <span id='postcolor'>

The United States does not want to face anyone on the battlefield.  That is a failure of diplomacy.  However I don't see any forseeable reason that the U.S. and China would go at each other.  

China is most certainly not going to back North Korea in any sort of war.   Not only would this be a huge international politcal loss for China, it would do the thing which they dread most and make the U.S. look good.  As I've said before, a nuclear arms race in the region serves the most ill towards China since it evens the tables quite a bit.

Other then that, the only reason I can see the U.S. and China going to war is over Taiwan.  China knows that if they set an uninvited foot onto Taiwan things are going to get extremely shitty for them.  They can't afford the complete loss of the Southern and Eastern fleets, and those would be the first thing wiped off the face of the map.  It's far to costly of a gamble for them to take.

This may be somewhat hard to understand, it's late and I've been studying like mad all day.  I have visions of Tall Kings, Backtraps, and Thick Eights dancing through my head

[FSPilot 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't China support a war against NK? At least getting NK out of power I mean.

[Supah 0]

Othin: I hope you are right on this. Seriously. Anything else would mean destruction on a scale the world has never seen. What i said may have been a worst case scenario but it is not impossible.

FSpilot: I think not backing a communist regime under attack from _the_ capitalist power (in their eyes) would be extremely hard to "sell" for china internally. Especially as NK has been seen as an allie by the chinese people for along time. Then again i am no expert in chinese internal politics. This is jus from a human, reasoning, point of view.

[ralphwiggum 6]

China will help NK IF NK is attacked first. but what is chance of that?

[Schoeler 0]

As a political science major, all the material I've been reading on this seems to indicate that the Chinese have backed off from their traditional support of the North Koreans. The Chinese know that Kim Jong Il is a nut and they don't want anything to do with him. It seems they are more focused on transitioning their economy to make a major run at being the world's foremost superpower this century. Many political scientists predict that their economic power will surpass the U.S.'s in about 11 years or so. One scary thing about that, read about the theory of what happens in a unipolar system when one superpower is in decline and the other is on the rise. Its a setting ripe for war between the two contenders. Based upon a few theories, if the U.S. is surpassed by China, it becomes inevitable that there will be a fight between the two. Thank God its only a theory. The North Koreans are on their own, and the world recognizes how dangerous they are. Yes its common for nations to play footsie with each others spy planes and ships, but they don't lock on to each other. That is an act of provocation and shows the other nation that you are hostile and aggressive. Escorting a spy plane is intended to show the other guy you know he's there listening in. The U.S. and the soviets did that to each other all the time. What they didn't do is commit (nearly) an act of war by locking each other up. In a tense situation, thats madness and it goes way beyond saying to each other, "Hey, we know you're here and you play your games and we'll play ours." This isn't political gamesmanship, its open aggression.

[Oligo 1]

During cold war, russians used to intercept U.S. spy planes over international waters. They maneuvered their fighters in front of the spy plane and hit the afterburner. Fried some U.S. brows.

But they did nothing wrong. Every country is perfectly free to send their planes to fly over international waters and turn on the afterburners whenever they please.

You just got to love the international waters. Almost anything goes there.

[Jinef 2]

Not neccessarily.

There were times where the Russians were more powerful than America, in the '50s and times when the Americans really took the lead due to tecnology advancements - '60s

In the Cuban Missile Crisis the Americans had the ability to be able to hit Russia with 5000 warheads using ICBMS and missiles based in Turkey and the UK. Russia had about 12 Warheads that could reach the USA. See this imbalance? True at this time the anti ballistic missile systems were far more extensive in Russia but they were, in a nutshell, shit. They had a very low percentage of hitting anything. This deeply worried the Russian leadership.

So the Russians decided to move missiles to Cuba who were asking for international help from an invasion from the US. When the Americans found out you know what happened and thankfully the Russians helped to avert a war by keeping the Cubans in control. This version of the story is going to be contested for sure by the all American hero supporters who believe that the Russians were trying to attack etc. but it came from the archives of Moscow where there's a differet side to the story.

What was good about the cold war is that it didn't allow America invade Russia and destroy all evidence of anything happening that might make look America bad. It was nice of the Russian to be such a quiet but the truth was going to eventually get out. In cold wars there is no losers eh?

Just America had a few more Allies than Russia that exchanged technology, offered military assistance etc.

Russia was against the world and is still alive. That's a very powerful superpower in my mind.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 07 2003,1106)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What was good about the cold war is that it didn't allow America invade Russia and destroy all evidence of anything happening that might make look America bad. It was nice of the Russian to be such a quiet but the truth was going to eventually get out.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that's certainly an... interesting interpretation of the cold war.

Semper Fi

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 07 2003,02:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Things about the Cold War...<span id='postcolor'>

That is definately a unique look at the Cold War. The amount of information out there that refutes that view is too numerous and offtopic to discuss in this thread, which it dosen't relate to at all. If you want to discus it I would say start another thread...

[The_Replicator 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What was good about the cold war is that it didn't allow America invade Russia and destroy all evidence of anything happening that might make look America bad. It was nice of the Russian to be such a quiet but the truth was going to eventually get out. In cold wars there is no losers eh<span id='postcolor'>

hahaha is this a joke?

even now with US technology USA could not defeat russia if they invaded them and the only way of winning a war is invasion

haha

[The_Replicator 0]

im against a war if it could make a nuke war ---> World war III

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 06 2003,09:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">During cold war, russians used to intercept U.S. spy planes over international waters. They maneuvered their fighters in front of the spy plane and hit the afterburner. Fried some U.S. brows.  

But they did nothing wrong. Every country is perfectly free to send their planes to fly over international waters and turn on the afterburners whenever they please.

You just got to love the international waters. Almost anything goes there.  <span id='postcolor'>

Hehe, gotta love the Russians!

[Longinius 1]

"im against a war if it could make a nuke war ---> World war III"

In other words, wars are OK as long as it doesnt happen in your neighbourhood?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Schoeler- China will not militarily surpass the US within 11 years so a military challenge within that timeframe is improbable. Even if within 30 or 40 years theyll have to make some very major reforms to approach the US in terms of power projection capability. Plus China is massivly behind in the nuclear arena (and there has never been an instance of two strategic nuclear armed states going to war).

In fact ironically perhaps the best thing for the US right now would be a bellicose and aggressive looking China. Similar to the cold war America could come together with a Sino-critical Europe (and the EU in particular) to challenge China, pressure and limit its power. But China is too smart for that. Theyre playing the long game. Divide and conquer.

Jinef- I think i watched the documentary you got the interesting information about Cuba from but your 'conclusions' are faulty to say the least.

What was good about the cold war is that it didnt result in the mass extinction of homo sapiens.

Also that Marxism was not forced upon all of europe and asia by soviet military invasion. What was bad was that lots of bastards were supported by 'us' (the west) who are now proceeding to bite us in the arse.

North Korea is perhaps too dangerous to take on militarily (although i read a report -by the FAS i think- that said there were South Korean /US contingency plans to preemptively invade North Korea before the Norths military has time to upgrade-outdated as it is at the moment)

Hopefully the Korean dictatorship will collapse or erode but that requires a softening of attitude ,dialogue and trade (promoting limited capitalism etc)

And not this 'Axis of Evil' stuff. I think Tex summed up my thoughts on that nicely.