N. korea intercepts us spy plane

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Suchey @ Mar. 04 2003,23:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (toadeater @ Mar. 04 2003,02:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Should have never started all that "Axis of Evil" talk. Is it my faulty memory, or didn't Bush publically say that NK was in need of a regime change? What is Kim Jong Il going to do after hearing that and seeing what is going on in Iraq?

Send him his petty food aid and leave him alone.<span id='postcolor'>

I see your point...but the world can also not be bullied into providing aid...what happens when he decides he needs 50 billion dollars to stabalize his countries economy...or he needs something else...it sets a pattern of bowing to military threat.  Give us money or we blow stuff up...give us this, give us that or we blow stuff up.  Where does it end?  I doubt that this would all simply blow over if food aid was fully restored.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so why isn't Bush doing anything about it? NK is a few months away from building a nuke, if it hasn't done so already. In a strange way, they really do have the world cornered.

By that kind of thinking, what about Russia, China, India, and Pakistan? They could just as easily decide to do the same kind of thing. Why haven't they done so already? They have enough nukes to blow up the world.

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hit_Sqd_Maximus @ Mar. 05 2003,00:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did he even give the food to the people?<span id='postcolor'>

What else could he do with it?

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (toadeater @ Mar. 05 2003,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What else could he do with it?<span id='postcolor'>

Feed the army.

Semper Fi

[Schoeler 0]

Its true, the last incident like this occured in 1969, and then the North Koreans shot the plane down, killing all 31 crewmembers aboard it. Incidently, I was stationed at the base that P3 crew that was "approached" by the Chinese fighters flew from. Those guys all came back heros for their actions.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Those guys all came back heros for their actions. <span id='postcolor'>

I don´t understand this. Why is someone a hero who get´s caught during a spy operation ? In my eyes it was bad work and they got caught. Hero´s are defined very different for me.

[Gourka 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ Mar. 04 2003,10:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

But if NK wants to shoot down an unarmed, passive US aircraft, then trying to avoid tension is kinda pointless...

<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe unarmed but not so passive I think  

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Mar. 05 2003,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don´t understand this. Why is someone a hero who get´s caught during a spy operation ? In my eyes it was bad work and they got caught. Hero´s are defined very different for me.<span id='postcolor'>

Just a couple of points:

1) They weren't "caught."  They were rammed by a Chinese hotdog in international airspace.  "Caught" implies they were apprehended doing something illegal, which is not the case.

2) They weren't on a "spy operation."  They were on a reconnaissance flight.  You know, wearing military uniforms and all that.

3) As far as being "heroes," it may be due to the professionalism the crew showed in being able to land the plane with the nose cone and other bits and pieces missing.

Semper Fi

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ Mar. 04 2003,09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But if NK wants to shoot down an unarmed, passive US aircraft, then trying to avoid tension is kinda pointless...<span id='postcolor'>

Spying on a country is not being passive. For fucks sake the Americans think they can just do whatever they want and they will always be the good guys. What would America do if China decided to start flying recon planes around America just doing a bit of 'passive' recon.

It's frickin Cuba all over again!

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Suchey @ Mar. 04 2003,20:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Call me crazy, but shouldn't their first concern be to feed the starving population rather than bring the world to the brink of war?<span id='postcolor'>

Why don't America and Britain eradicate their own poverty before starting wars?

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 05 2003,17:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ Mar. 04 2003,09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But if NK wants to shoot down an unarmed, passive US aircraft, then trying to avoid tension is kinda pointless...<span id='postcolor'>

Spying on a country is not being passive. For fucks sake the Americans think they can just do whatever they want and they will always be the good guys. What would America do if China decided to start flying recon planes around America just doing a bit of 'passive' recon.

It's frickin Cuba all over again!<span id='postcolor'>

the recon plane was on international waters. and every fucking country has its own spying cells in other countries.

and if Chinese recon around US, I think answer would be same. although i see no chance of US jet ramming into Chinese recon plane.

and why doesn't rest of other countries inclusing EU countries and Mid Eastern and Asian countries mind their own business before talking about US?

[Schoeler 0]

Jinef, I can assure you that you are quite wrong. Every country has spies. Most diplomats are trained in intelligence gathering, and it is the primary reason nations have foreign embassies. Spying on one another helps make the world a more stabile place because we can all understand what the other is doing just that much better. Besides, many foreign nations do have open reconaissance aircraft/vessels off of America's coastline. If you ever served in the Navy, you would have seen numerous Russian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean/(Insert any European nation here) "fishing vessels" trawling back and forth in international waters. What is amazing is how many antennas these "harmless trawlers" have on them. Everybody does it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Listening in on one another makes us a better neighbor, because it makes each other a bit more predictable. Besides, its international waters, and radio signals don't belong to anyone, they simply go on out into the universe forever (1st law of thermodynamics if you are interested), if you don't want people listening in on your conversations, encrypt them! Also, they were considered heros not for their surveillance missions, but for how they handled themselves during a time when most people would have panicked and died. The pilots were able to calmly regain control of an inverted P3 Orion (a plane that is NOT designed to fly inverted) that was missing its nosecone, and a good section of the wing and tail, while simultaneously radioing their situation in. Meanwhile the crew, thoughtfully destroyed all of the crypto equipment with a sledgehammer while most people would have been praying for their survival. Also, the crew acted with dignity after their capture despite the oh so friendly Chinese treatment of their "guests".

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 05 2003,18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and why doesn't rest of other countries inclusing EU countries and Mid Eastern and Asian countries mind their own business before talking about US?<span id='postcolor'>

It is their own business. They're being spied on and pressured economically, as well as socially and religiously. America seems to think that the entire world is waiting to be "liberated" from something or other, when most other countries already have their own ideas about how to evolve.

All America has to do is respect the rest of the world and lead through example, rather than dominate it by force. America has recently been trying to take on the entire world, that kind of policy is doomed to failure.

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 05 2003,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you don't want people listening in on your conversations, encrypt them!<span id='postcolor'>

You do remember that congress has tried to make the use of encryption illegal by US citizens, don't you? Then they wanted to impose backdoors in software for the NSA. This is also why foreign governments have demanded to see the source code for Windows before allowing the use of it in their government organizations.

You can't put your faith in ANY government (or Microsoft or even your ISP), we must always remain vigilant of what our politicians and intelligence agencies are up to.

[ralphwiggum 6]

well, they spy on US too. my point is that why is so worried about US's action on ME countries when it's not Europe? they got plenty of problems of their own before sticking in their nose into what US is doing.

which leads to one thing. I am trying to show Jinef's point being not sound.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You do remember that congress has tried to make the use of encryption illegal by US citizens, don't you? Then they wanted to impose backdoors in software for the NSA. This is also why foreign governments have demanded to see the source code for Windows before allowing the use of it in their government organizations.

You can't put your faith in ANY government (or Microsoft or even your ISP), we must always remain vigilant of what our politicians and intelligence agencies are up to.<span id='postcolor'>

or that they want Windows for free who would do such stupid thing anyways? I wonder if they will let US have source code for some of their softwares.

the US's action on encrpytion is that it is regarded as a military property, thus cannot be freely given to civilians. when rest of the world was using 128bit encryption, US had limit of 64, which caused a problem when PGP was made since it was 128bit. the lawsuit, IIRC, was killed.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don´t understand this. Why is someone a hero who get´s caught during a spy operation ? In my eyes it was bad work and they got caught. Hero´s are defined very different for me.<span id='postcolor'>

They were attacked over international waters and taken prisoner. I think making it down with half a plane is heroic enough, but they were also taken prisoner. Heroes in my book.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why don't America and Britain eradicate their own poverty before starting wars?<span id='postcolor'>

Why don't you give all your money to charity instead of spending it on a house, computer, and internet connection?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, they spy on US too. <span id='postcolor'>

I know how you can, too.

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 05 2003,19:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why don't you give all your money to charity instead of spending it on a house, computer, and internet connection?<span id='postcolor'>

Because i am a small minded military being who does not have any resources useful to preventing poverty. The RAF helped pay for my house, but i did buy my computer and i do pay lot's of money for a 'broadband' connection.

The US defense budget is astronomical, it's 40 billion that it dedicates to 'black projects' (don't you get pissed off that 40 billion, 10 billion more than the UK's entire defense budget, of your money is going to something which you don't even know about. With 40 billion you could give every citizen of the US an NBC suit and AK47.

Do you think that having a National Health Service NOW would be more benefficial than the ability to shoot down ballistic missiles in 20 years time?

Britain has a much lower defense budget and although it's military is smaller it is more effective and efficient than the US military.

Why doesn't the US lower it's defense budget by let's say 200 billion and give it to the homeless! Or make a good NHS and put the corporate gangfucks of hospitals in the US out of buisness?

I never said that other countries don't spy on each other. The North Korean fighters intercepted the plane for a reason, true they might just have thought it would be fun but most likely not.

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 05 2003,19:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am trying to show Jinef's point being not sound.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think i had a point, i just said that spying on a country is in no way a passive act.

Sure it might be a regular act but that still does not classify it as passive.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because i am a small minded military being who does not have any resources useful to preventing poverty.<span id='postcolor'>

But you still get on other people's cases for not preventing poverty? Even though you admittedly don't do it yourself and therefore don't understand the problems it may or may not cause? Even though you don't know the ins and outs of the US budget and spending system? And I'm sure you know about the 15 billion we just gave in aid to AIDs victims. Not to mention our crippled economy and big deficit after 09/11.

But no, we're just heartless.

[Jinef 2]

Oh i am really truly and most utterly sorry that i misjudged the United States once again.

It must be that nasty Michael Moore and his shorts that give me these horrible misconceotions about the most heavenly country on earth.

My friend just told me this (i love the US i would never say such a thing, God Bless America) -

Did you know the nice people in China gave more aid to Afghanistan than the US even though they strived to remain neutral and the US promised not to leave the Afghani people in despair.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Capitalism FAQ

[Jinef 2]

Added that to my favourites! Thanx

That will be the subject of tommorow's flight, we will discuss the world and it's potential for becoming a utopia etc.

Remeber boys and girls, the problem this time is not foreigners! It's to do with the expanding socio-economic crisis within our societies.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 06 2003,03:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh i am really truly and most utterly sorry that i misjudged the United States once again.

It must be that nasty Michael Moore and his shorts that give me these horrible misconceotions about the most heavenly country on earth.<span id='postcolor'>

It's OK, I forgive you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you know the nice people in China gave more aid to Afghanistan than the US even though they strived to remain neutral and the US promised not to leave the Afghani people in despair.<span id='postcolor'>

I'd like to see a source on this.

[HellToupee 0]

some people hand out hero status very easy

[FSPilot 0]

You ever been knocked out of the sky and taken prisoner?

No?

Didn't think so...

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Americans realize the importance of the separation of church and state: the institution which leaves people free to form and act upon their own values without the threat of others imposing their own values upon them through aid of the government. What most people do not understand, however, is that the separation of economics and state -- laissez-faire capitalism -- is just as important for human prosperity as is the separation of church and state.<span id='postcolor'>

Erm?

School textbooks are editted for the spiritual peace of mind of some conservative Texan christian order.Don't have any links on me but it passed the forums in another thread.

On pictures of classic art where,god forbid,some *ahem* inappropriate body parts were visible,they had to be editted out because they were inappropriate.

(disclaimer : not criticism on texans,or america,great people live there,nor any religion,just on the overzealous types,and this faq)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For someone to be exploited they have to be physically forced to work against their own will. It is only a government, not a businessman, that has the type of power necessary to force people to work against their own judgment.

<span id='postcolor'>

Excuse me?

Say,if there is no alternative than to work underpaid,no education for a better job because your parents couldn't afford it with their pay,aren't you being exploited?

Pure laissez faire laissez passer capitalism doesn't exist anymore in America or Europe,and for good reason.

(Dutch speaking people might have watched Daens,which portrays this quite nicely,I have no idea if there's an english version though.)

Sorry I went so far offtopic but that faq somehow got on my nerves,it's like a commercial

(note : I'm not a commie,all economic principles have flaws,but pure capitalism like this is not the ideal form as is presented in that faq,currently the socially influenced capitalism we have is the best we can do)

[Edit : Got carried away,the faq itself says that the US isn't capitalistic,first half of this post may be disregarded :s]