A question to bas addon studio

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 19 2003,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You misunderstand me Avon....its not about swallowing up...its about forming a co-operative....a collection of addon makers...who all contribute their original weapons to one PBO.....it doesn't matter who has ultimate ownership of it...hell it could be a board of representatives from various mods.<span id='postcolor'>

Why does it have to be one PBO?

Who cares if it's 2, 3 or 4?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But a great start at making this community one wold be to have one standard set of weapons PBOs.<span id='postcolor'>

I never said otherwise.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or do you enjoy having several M4s, SAWs, M40A1s, MP5s sitting on your machine not knowing which one to use in your mission because you dont know which pack your audience has.<span id='postcolor'>

Once again, you said that BAS majors in US/west addons. Affilate with someone who's on the east side of town.

You'll still avoid redundancy of similar addons this way but increase the speed at which addons that compliment BAS' will become available.

[Tigershark 0]

Yes....I see where you are coming from....leave it with me Avon....let me discuss this internally and see if we can't follow through on your idea.

[Guest ####]

Making east addons is not really needed since these are modern U.S units, not units that are fighting in a good olde cold war senerio. The majority of conflicts that deltas and rangers fight in are against irregular troops that are illequiped. Rangers could fight against modern conventional armies but lack the mechanized punch of afv's to back them up.

If anyone was interested in making Somali gunmen just take some civvie skins and give them AK's, then do a set face texture for the black guys.

[whisperFFW06 0]

I think that to permit independant mod groups to work and interact together, there is a strong need for a unified interface, that is, a set of standard parameters. That's mainly a .cpp issue, but would unify the parameters between diff addons, the other parts of the addon being mod dependant (model and special features) and not interfering w/ other addons.

Let me show a little example : we at OFrP are building up a Leclerc MBT. We do not want it too strong, nor do we want it too weak, we want it to fit with other addons. There is 2 options to deal w/ this issue : same period MBT -> same parameters (so Leclerc is nothing more than a BIS M1A1 w/ different model). Not a good option for quality addon.

Or, we use another top addon to compare with. For example Sigma-6 tanks. But if another addon do not take Sig-6 as reference, we won't be compliant with it.

To my knowledge, there is no such standard (I saw in some other post that Sigma-6 and other pple were in the process of building up something like that) for any addon class. I think this is the first step to working together.

This would not resolve the multiple same addon issue...

Whis'

[Guest jacobaby]

so, its true what they say about women......

They nag nag nag till they get their way.............

well NAGotiated Avon!!

I have nothing to say except, you wouldn't believe the amount of work, discussion, argument, testing, blood, sweat and tears that go into a pack like the Deltas and Rangers. At times there were crossed wires even between 2 or 3 of the guys, due to the nature of a "cyber team". Expanding in whatever way can only mean more of that unfortunately.

I speak as one who observed this in action over the last few weeks.

And competition IS good, it forces the standards higher with each release, and expectations are raised.

(jealousy, rivalry, backbiting aren't needed thx).

Also, some very good modders prefer to work as they do, either alone or in a team, maybe they HAVE been approached already and declined

I still keep warm at night by thinking about you Avon, as I have ever since finding out you are a kosher chick some years ago.

TJ

[Guest]

Yeah...I think you highlight something quite important there Whisper. There might be different mods making the same unit/weapon etc, but they config it differently to suit there own purposes...and this is where some of the above stuff might fall down.

Some mods are made up of addons only (units, weapons, vehicals, islands, objects, etc), whilst others are tweaking more fundamental things (data.pbo, config.bin, config.cpp, O.pbo etc)...things that might not work well with a "standardised" addon pack....the sort of mod that would require it's own folder.

Not to say this couldn't be worked out somehow, but certainly it needs to be considered a bit.

I also agree that there would need to be a change in attitude in a significant amount of the OFP community. And the rise of childish players/addon-makers in the community certainly makes this more difficult. Like any relationship I guess there needs to be some trust....not easy to establish online.

But I think there are enough mods who might be interested in sharing techniques/addons...there has been a HUGE amount of work done over the past couple of years, and if enough are willing to co-operate, maybe we can all be playing OFP in 16 different flavours by this time next year?

At some point I guess what exactly is to happen would need to be discussed, and everyone involved put their hands up and say "I'm in".  

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (#### @ Feb. 19 2003,18:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Making east addons is not really needed since these are modern U.S units, not units that are fighting in a good olde cold war senerio. The majority of conflicts that deltas and rangers fight in are against irregular troops that are illequiped. Rangers could fight against modern conventional armies but lack the mechanized punch of afv's to back them up.

If anyone was interested in making Somali gunmen just take some civvie skins and give them AK's, then do a set face texture for the black guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Eh? Who says they have to have anything to do with Deltas or Rangers? Not EVERYONE plays with East units as enemies, you know. Chechnya etc. I don´t think Rangers or Deltas are involved in a conflict like that.

But I understand why they wouldn´t make east addons, BAS is primarily an American team and the Russians can make their own units well, as we have seen many times.

[dm 9]

5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Feb. 19 2003,175)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I understand why they wouldn´t make east addons, BAS is primarily an American team and the Russians can make their own units well, as we have seen many times.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually.. not true... only 3 of the BAS team (of 20   ) are American...

We make mainly West/US/NATO addons for 2 reasons:

1) It's good kit that we can get a lot of detail on, things like technical specs and photos and the sort - in our own language...

2) If we want to get some "hands on" experience... its easier to go to an "open day" or an airshow in your own country...

And anyho... who knows what will come from BAS next (except us ofcourse    )

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jacobaby @ Feb. 19 2003,18:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still keep warm at night by thinking about you Avon<span id='postcolor'>

Shall I break this to your wife and daughter?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">as I have ever since finding out you are a kosher chick some years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

/avon plucks another white feather

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Feb. 19 2003,19:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Eh? Who says they have to have anything to do with Deltas or Rangers? Not EVERYONE plays with East units as enemies, you know. Chechnya etc. I don´t think Rangers or Deltas are involved in a conflict like that.<span id='postcolor'>

There was no Cold War Crisis War in 1985 either.

The storyline of Independence Lost is based on reality but there's no military conflict there (yet) involving US or Australian troops.

When I said "east" I meant the counterparts to US/NATO.

Let's face it. What good are the BAS addons against themselves, right?

/waiting for someone to make a Delta versus Rangers mission

[hellfish6 7]

I do agree with the sentiments expressed here. Right now I'm looking at two Falkland War mods that long ago decided to compete with each other instead of cooperate.

Both have very good looking addons thus far, and while they may take opposing viewpoints on the conflict (as you probably know, one mod team is Argentinian, the other predominantly British) they will both be making the exact same weapons and equipment for their mods. I find it mind boggling that they couldn't find some kind of agreement to split the work. Now, we're going to have at least two versions of everything that saw service there. I'm sure the quality of everything will be very good, but it's just so frustrating to know that they are wasting so much time!

And this isn't the only example. I haven't been following them too closely, but I know there are at least three WWII mods being worked on out there. How much cooperation do they have with each other? Are we going to end up with three versions of Panzer IVs? Panthers? How many sets of soldiers are we going to get?

I wish there was an easy solution to all of this. I honestly respect and admire all the work the addon makers in the community do, but I am frustrated as a member of the community that we can't get along. I'm also a member of several other gaming communities, notably IL-2 and Combat Mission and I see the mod makers there getting along fantastically with each other and with the developers. They coordinate with themselves, share tips and techniques and ask for permission before using a part of someone else's work.

Does this problem stem from the fact that the average age of the OFPer is much younger than the average age of someone who plays IL-2 or Combat Mission?

I'd have thought that by now, with our community having weeded out most of the "l33t hax0rz" with the 5 minute attention spans, strange alphabets and uncooth behavior that we'd be a healtheir, more friendly and productive group. But that hasn't been the case.

Why not?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Feb. 19 2003,20:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish there was an easy solution to all of this.<span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>If</span> (and that's a big "if" )

BAS sticks to US/west addons and they can find a team that wants to stick to Russian/east/other addons, that has the potential to work.

The example you gave of England versus Argentina sounds like one side or the other was still at war when it came to playing nice together.

I say BAS can do it but, of course, as you're all pointing out, they've got to be very selective.

[VXR 9]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Feb. 19 2003,19:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ Feb. 19 2003,20:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish there was an easy solution to all of this.<span id='postcolor'>

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>If</span> (and that's a big "if"   )

BAS sticks to US/west addons and they can find a team that wants to stick to Russian/east/other addons, that has the potential to work.

The example you gave of England versus Argentina sounds like one side or the other was still at war when it came to playing nice together.

I say BAS can do it but, of course, as you're all pointing out, they've got to be very selective.<span id='postcolor'>

dont think BAS will ever get more people to start on east stuff, btw we dont have secrets about how we make it but we keep it secret what we are gone make

[mattmayhem 0]

I think I am going to delte my OFP then reinstall fresh because I am so overloaded with addons I can't launch half the time. Then Im going to install the only addons I ever use more then once, BAS series and SEB nam.

[Tigershark 0]

Thankyou Hellfish....good job of articulating what I weas effectively trying to say.

And to be honest mate...I do think its the age that is the inhibiting factor.

I tell you what...AKM47 is a personla friend of mine....I'll speak with him and enter into some kind of discussion with Redstar Studios...maybe we could share techniques and things as Avon Lady has suggested. These techniques might help lift the standard to Ranger/delta addon (assuming they haven't lifted the standard again) and it would result in great East addons with BAS quality without being a BAS project.

They might be receptive to this....anyone invited them into this conversation?

[peanuckle_00 0]

In response to this new modding renaissance I am quitting the crime city mod team. It was just going to be a cop story involving some addons from the community but I was working with a younger guy who wanted to make his own version of weapons that came with resistance and that were released before by other addon makers. Its about time someone has spoken out about the perpetuating situation in regards to what I can only dub "copycats". I hope that my actions represent taking a step toward the vision that we desire for the ofp community. I'm taking a step to uphold myself to my own standards by quitting this campaign team, turned into a mod team, turned into something ugly. Big ups to the forum. In my opinion the reason that you see alot of copycats out there is that the younger guys want to see if they can get the type of reaction that teams like BAS get. They don't see how BAS gets that type of reaction. They don't know why people go goo goo over BAS addons. I can say that its because of the quality. BAS puts alot of work into what they do. Every BAS addon you can tell that they've even impressed themselves. They've really outdone themselves. I create music and I try to get the same effect because its exciting for a creator to be impressed by his or her own work.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 19 2003,18:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I tell you what...AKM47 is a personla friend of mine....I'll speak with him and enter into some kind of discussion with Redstar Studios...maybe we could share techniques and things as Avon Lady has suggested. These techniques might help lift the standard to Ranger/delta addon (assuming they haven't lifted the standard again) and it would result in great East addons with BAS quality without being a BAS project.

They might be receptive to this....anyone invited them into this conversation?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm really happy to hear this. And I think that if any single OFP player could do it, it would be you, Tigershark (as an amateur marine biologist, I'd like to say 'HUZZAH!' to your handle, by the way ).

You've already proven your abilities by founding OFPEC and assembling the BAS team, and both entities have shown a continuous level of professionalism in their actions and quality in their end results.  I think you've set a benchmark for the entire community that is slowly starting to be mimicked. And Red Star Studios is one of these bright and shining examples of what our community needs its addon makers to be.

I indeed hope they prove receptive. I hope that others realize that it's easier to work within a proven, widely accepted and lauded system than to work against it. I'm not saying that BAS needs to lead the pack, necessarily, but I'm begging the community to cooperate with each other.

I have seen some of this spirit of cooperation lately, I might add. Off the top of my head, I know Sigma-6 has donated some of his tanks to other mods and Operation Northstar and the BW Mod team have collaborated. I am immensely satisfied to see this and hope that others follow their example.

[peanuckle_00 0]

Not only does the BAS team continue to impress me but so does the Avon Lady with her ideas, whit, knowledge, and effort.

[Guest ####]

I think that the co-operation has always been there, but not co-ordinated in the team sence. OFPEC brought people together and ideas got exchanged and noobs like myself usually got answers to their questions.

Most people in the community also answer Emails that are sent to them with questions on how to do things. I know of only 1 person who acts like a total snob and does not reply, but I won't give the name.

It would be nice if agreed upon specs for addons could be agreed to by the community, but if it gets others interested in making addons then I'm okay with different groups making similar or the same addon.

And for those "goofy" addons, I think they are great too, people use their creativity and sometimes we learn new things about the workings of the game engine. Who knew that you could fire people out of cannons as ammo until some one decided to do it as a joke, or that magnificent flying airbant.

Overall if it was not for the mod community this game would have died out a long time ago.

[Tigershark 0]

Hellfish....we are definitely reading from the same page....and Peaknuckle..thanks for taking the stand...I think you share the vision.

Guys...it sounds as if we all have embraced Avon's idea in principle..now we need to make it reality. As Hellfish said....I never set up BAS with the intention of dominating others mods....I did set it up to be the flag waver if you will. The group..that with your help..could champion greater co-operation and the sharing of addons that are already ready created. Why create new versions of these things when community recognised quality ones already exist...it just doesn't make sense.

And if the bar gets raised...we should incorporate those changes into the community recognised std PBO (or 2 or 3 pbos as Avon lady said...I wasn't necessarily advocating just one pbo).

This is getting me a little excited at the potential.....let's see how we go implementing this...and Avon Lady...great topic for the thread.

You actually preempted me by about a week. A was preparing a "open letter to the OPF community" on this very subject. Nice to see it discussed here in a mature, humble and intelligent manner by all.

Perhaps Avon it is still worth making an "open letter" and getting a series of people to sign it lending their support to the principle of this. Worth it?

And Hellfish..thanks for the kind words....I'm not sure I deserve all that praise but thanks for the sentiment.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 19 2003,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Hellfish..thanks for the kind words....I'm not sure I deserve all that praise but thanks for the sentiment.<span id='postcolor'>

I am merely your humble admirer.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mattmayhem @ Feb. 20 2003,00:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think I am going to delte my OFP then reinstall fresh because I am so overloaded with addons I can't launch half the time. Then Im going to install the only addons I ever use more then once, BAS series and SEB nam.<span id='postcolor'>

Search The FAQ for "mod folder" and then you can keep all of your addons.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 20 2003,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps Avon it is still worth making an "open letter" and getting a series of people to sign it lending their support to the principle of this. Worth it?<span id='postcolor'>

Cut the wishy-washy stuff and make the contacts yourself, personally, to those in the community that have shown potential and mutual respect. That includes some big fish out there. Reach high.

[hellfish6 7]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 19 2003,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And if the bar gets raised...we should incorporate those changes into the community recognised std PBO (or 2 or 3 pbos as Avon lady said...I wasn't necessarily advocating just one pbo).<span id='postcolor'>

Forgive me for being slightly behind the curve here, but I assume that this means that as addons are produced, the creators send them off to some central repository where they are incorporated into one giant pbo?

So that someday I might download a pbo that has not only all of BAS's weapons, but also, say Operation Frenchpoint's French weapons, BW Mod's German weapons, G8's HK pack, etc.? And another pbo for soldiers, another for vehicles, etc.?

I think that's a great idea. Part of why I play so few MP missions now is that every server has it's own set guidelines for what mods they want installed if you want to play. This can be really irritating - I pick a server because there is a player position open, not because I have any great affinity towards this server or that one. I will very rarely actually go and download 5-50mb worth of sometimes sub-par addons just to play on a server I will likely never play on again. My notable exception is Digital Grenade, because they package it all together for one easy download.

I think that a moderated, periodically updated set of PBOs would help solve this. Mission makers would have something to base their work off of, knowing that many of the people who will play his or her mission will also have these U(niversal) PBOs installed and can thus have more flexibility in what they can do. No more worrying about if your average player has this or that addon installed. No more players hunting down addons to play missions because either the mission is really old and the addon had since dropped off the radar screen or because the mission maker forgot to tell you what and where to find the addons.

Naturally, nobody would be forced to contribute their addons to these UPBOs. Conversely, I don't think all addons should be added to these. Though I am not a modder by any means, I think I can honestly say that I've seen some half-assed addons released in the past. If everything checks out with what is contributed, though (no LOD bugs, missing textures, etc.) I see no reason why most addons out there couldn't be included.

Maybe this system would even contribute to a set of community standards, as was mentioned earlier. So one person's M-1A1 tank isn't vastly over or under powered compared to someone else's.

But I am getting way ahead of myself. Simply, I'm all for this idea.

[Tigershark 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Feb. 20 2003,14:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Feb. 20 2003,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps Avon it is still worth making an "open letter" and getting a series of people to sign it lending their support to the principle of this. Worth it?<span id='postcolor'>

Cut the wishy-washy stuff and make the contacts yourself, personally, to those in the community that have shown potential and mutual respect. That includes some big fish out there. Reach high. <span id='postcolor'>

Ooookay....I assume you don't want to contribute to the letter then. Fine...I have no problem drafting it myself...only offering the chance to have a hand in it.