At what point does a war become a massacre?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Feb. 20 2003,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...its just obvious that the answer is to get the hell away from there.  I know i would.<span id='postcolor'>

Many share your view.  Perhaps someone should model an AC-130 gunship for OFP.  Folks should find out how challenging it really is to out run an airborne system of computer controlled canons that fire a round into every few square centimeters across a vast area.  The simple concept of running away is generally quite laughable.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

very good thread with a very interesting topic. I gotta sleep over it before I can post a semi-intelligent comment. Keep going and dont get it locked. In fact it is one of the most interesting topics I have seen here for weeks!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 20 2003,02:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Feb. 20 2003,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...its just obvious that the answer is to get the hell away from there.  I know i would.<span id='postcolor'>

Many share your view.  Perhaps someone should model an AC-130 gunship for OFP.  Folks should find out how challenging it really is to out run an airborne system of computer controlled canons that fire a round into every few square centimeters across a vast area.  The simple concept of running away is generally quite laughable.<span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. Many of you have probably seen the footage of an a Spectre running anti-personnel and anti-fortification missions in Afghanistan. In case you haven't, here is a quick run-through of the capability that one of these gunships posesses. From several thousand feet in the air an AC-130 can engage vehicles and individual humans with pinpoint accuracy using 40mm Bofors cannon and its 105mm howitzer. The video I saw shows successful engagement no less than 20 meters away from a mosque that had been designated strictly off-limits to being destroyed (a building nearby was not so protected, and got levelled by one well placed 105mm round). In the space of a few minutes about 7 vehicles had been destroyed and at least 15 people had been killed or incapacitated. One subject succeeded in making it about 100 meters from the area- the poor bastard didn't stand a chance. The gunners could see him so well that they could identify when he had just tripped instead of actually getting hit.

In a second engagement, the gunship engages a tunnel/cave emitting a heat signature. The first hits cause about a 6 men to run out of the tunnel. Within 45 seconds all but one were dead, and the last was dispatched soon afterwards. The gunship then proceeded to pummel the tunnel until it collapsed.

You cannot run away from the AC130 Gunship, especially in an open, coverless environment.

[Harnu 0]

I saw the same video Tex. Truly devastating accuracy.

[mr. Duck 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Feb. 20 2003,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mr. Duck @ Feb. 19 2003,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can still not get killed by artillery or air power, it's easy.  Just don't be where they're targetting.  Planes are bombing your tank?  Leave the tank, run.<span id='postcolor'>

Well sometimes you don't have a clue that you are being targeted.  <span id='postcolor'>

sure, thats understandable for the first few waves of fire, but after that its just obvious that the answer is to get the hell away from there.  I know i would.<span id='postcolor'>

But to where? Read what denoir said. The only thing I would do is try to dig a hole and hope that a shell won't hit me in the mean time.  

edit:

Darn, already answered, sorry.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 19 2003,03:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I saw the same video Tex.  Truly devastating accuracy.<span id='postcolor'>

I still have the video, if anyone's interested i'll send the link by PM, it contains disgusting images so it cannot be posted on this forum...

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well sometimes you don't have a clue that you are being targeted. <span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so the drivers of the cars and trucks just thought the cars around them were exploding randomly, and that the planes overhead were just taking pictures?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Run where? They were trapped. And they weren't mostly in tanks but in trucks.<span id='postcolor'>

They were surrounded by a moat or something? Throw down your gun and run off into the desert.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no way to run from artillery or incendiary bombs. Everything in a large area gets killed. The air is sucked out in a large radius. You have secondary explosions from vehicles.<span id='postcolor'>

So how were they used for CAS in Vietnam? All I'm saying is that if they weren't in their trucks or whatever they were driving they'd of had a better chance of survival. Hey, if an F-16 pilot saw a bunch of people surrendering I doubt he'd drop a bomb on them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And in the end AC-130's and AH-64's killed off with machine guns the few that survived the bombing and shelling.<span id='postcolor'>

Which they wouldn't of done if they had their hands in the air.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The simple concept of running away is generally quite laughable.<span id='postcolor'>

Run away and surrender. Don't sling your rifle over your shoulder and trot. Drop the gun, run like the wind and throw your hands up. AC-130 gunners aren't blind, and they know not to shoot people who are surrendering.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You cannot run away from the AC130 Gunship, especially in an open, coverless environment.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, but like I said. AC-130 gunners aren't blind. If they had had their hands in the air or otherwise visually expressed an intention to surrender, their odds of survival would of gone way up.

Look at it this way. Say you're flying along in OFP in an AH-64 as the gunner. You're looking through the scope and you see a person running around. Do you scream and hose them down with the cannon, or do you look closer to identify the person to see if they're friendly, then take the appropriate action? It's the same concept. If the Iraqi's had surrendered the AC-130 crews probably wouldn't of opened up on them.

[Harnu 0]

FSPilot.  When an AC130 Gunship shees a moving human blob on it's screen.  It can be quite hard to tell if it's got it's hands up.

It's not all that easy to run away.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So how were they used for CAS in Vietnam?<span id='postcolor'>

In Vietnam, our troops were far enough away they wouldn't be killed.  But if Iraqis were close enough, they could be killed quickly.  And I would trust Denior telling me what weapons are capable of.  He is a soldier after all...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you scream and hose them down with the cannon, or do you look closer to identify the person to see if they're friendly, then take the appropriate action? It's the same concept.<span id='postcolor'>

We knew they weren't friendly. There were no friendlies in the area on the ground. So it's really not the same concept in this instance.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 19 2003,18:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And in the end AC-130's and AH-64's killed off with machine guns the few that survived the bombing and shelling.<span id='postcolor'>

fabrication. I have seen video from an AH-64 over the basra highway and they purposely passed over humans with their hands up in surrender.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 20 2003,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So how were they used for CAS in Vietnam?  All I'm saying is that if they weren't in their trucks or whatever they were driving they'd of had a better chance of survival.  Hey, if an F-16 pilot saw a bunch of people surrendering I doubt he'd drop a bomb on them.<span id='postcolor'>

You have said some truly silly things in your day, but this one takes the cake.

At the speeds an F-16 moves, the pilot hardly has time to look at a fairly indistinct blob representing a group of people and deciding if they are:

a) Surrendering

or

b) Prepping a shoulder launched SAM to try to smoke him.

Hell, F-16 pilots in Afghanistan dropped on Canadians in a marked training area. How can you expect them to try to discern the motives of people in what is obviously a weapons free area.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Feb. 20 2003,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 19 2003,186)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And in the end AC-130's and AH-64's killed off with machine guns the few that survived the bombing and shelling.<span id='postcolor'>

fabrication.  I have seen video from an AH-64 over the basra highway and they purposely passed over humans with their hands up in surrender.<span id='postcolor'>

I can see an AC-130 bombing people surrenduring. But an Apache could atleast defer from threat and surrednering.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot. When an AC130 Gunship shees a moving human blob on it's screen. It can be quite hard to tell if it's got it's hands up.<span id='postcolor'>

Well I guess it's speculation until we can see some camera footage from the gunners view.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We knew they weren't friendly. There were no friendlies in the area on the ground. So it's really not the same concept in this instance.<span id='postcolor'>

Not exactly the same concept, but it's still relevant. If you saw someone with their hands in the air, Iraqi troop or not, you'd know they were surrendering and you wouldn't shoot them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At the speeds an F-16 moves, the pilot hardly has time to look at a fairly indistinct blob representing a group of people and deciding if they are:

a) Surrendering

or

b) Prepping a shoulder launched SAM to try to smoke him.<span id='postcolor'>

Granted, but the F-16s were most likely in contact with other aircraft in the area, or at the very least an AWACs. They would of known if people were surrendering.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hell, F-16 pilots in Afghanistan dropped on Canadians in a marked training area. How can you expect them to try to discern the motives of people in what is obviously a weapons free area.<span id='postcolor'>

Well in Afghanistan the pilots thought they were being shot at. That's a pretty good way to discern someone's motives.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 20 2003,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot.  When an AC130 Gunship shees a moving human blob on it's screen.  It can be quite hard to tell if it's got it's hands up.<span id='postcolor'>

Well I guess it's speculation until we can see some camera footage from the gunners view.

...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and the all knowing FS will enlighten us with his vision.

Anyway, PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the tape.

[Guest]

You are missing the point FSPilot. They were all gunned down those that stayed and those that ran away. Those that survived the A10 and artillery attacks were cut down by machine gun fire from Apache helicopters. The pilots were under orders not to let the Iraqi get away and they were not allowed to accept surrenders. There were no survivors.

And to answer you question why they could not move off the highway and run away into the desert is because it was heavily mined.

[mr. Duck 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, so the drivers of the cars and trucks just thought the cars around them were exploding randomly, and that the planes overhead were just taking pictures?<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I didn't say always, but sometimes, so, yes the survivors of an attack would problably know it. But I doubt the guys who we're hit first knew that they we're being targeted.

[Blake 0]

Shitty things happen in modern war. So they couldn't escape the road from their stolen vehicles because they would have stepped to their own mines. Well that is indeed tragic.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 21 2003,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, and the all knowing FS will enlighten us with his vision.

Anyway, PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the tape.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll enlighten you with my opinion.

And I've seen the tape. Depending on altitude and the different conditions (weather, time of day/night), and how the gunner was looking at his target it's hard to say whether or not he would be able to distinguish perfectly between a normal soldier and a surrendering one. But I think he would of been able to.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are missing the point FSPilot. They were all gunned down those that stayed and those that ran away. Those that survived the A10 and artillery attacks were cut down by machine gun fire from Apache helicopters. The pilots were under orders not to let the Iraqi get away and they were not allowed to accept surrenders. There were no survivors.<span id='postcolor'>

Let me clarify my point. Not only do you need to run away to increase your chances of survival, you also need to surrender. If they were just running away they were still targets. If they had surrendered they'd of been taken prisoner.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And to answer you question why they could not move off the highway and run away into the desert is because it was heavily mined.<span id='postcolor'>

By the Iraqis or by the US?

[Harnu 0]

For all they know they could have had their hands raised up high flicking them off.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me clarify my point. Not only do you need to run away to increase your chances of survival, you also need to surrender. If they were just running away they were still targets. If they had surrendered they'd of been taken prisoner.<span id='postcolor'>

And the Ah-64 come over it's loud speaker:

"Now you just stay right there, we'll take you in a few minutes!"

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 21 2003,08:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the Ah-64 come over it's loud speaker:

"Now you just stay right there, we'll take you in a few minutes!"

<span id='postcolor'>

No, then they'd move on to the next target and leave them alone. Hopefully ground forces will take them prisoner soon.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 21 2003,02:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me clarify my point.  Not only do you need to run away to increase your chances of survival, you also need to surrender.  If they were just running away they were still targets.  If they had surrendered they'd of been taken prisoner.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, this is the third time I am saying this. Read it slowly. The ROE did not allow accepting surrender.

If they had surrendered, which I am sure a lot of them did they would have been gunned down anyway. That's the whole point of the controversy around this incident.

They took no prisoners just killed everybody indiscriminantly, soldiers and civilians alike.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 21 2003,03:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, this is the third time I am saying this. Read it slowly. The ROE did not allow accepting surrender.<span id='postcolor'>

Until you provide a credible link showing that the U.S. military was ordered to not accept surrender, I call .

Semper Fi

[Guest]

There are plenty of links there. Unfortunately many of them contain rather explicit pictures. Here is however on of that doesn't:

U.S. Defends Burying Iraqi Troops Alive

To find more articles, just search for iraq and denial of quarter.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq accepted UN Resolution 660 and offered to withdraw from Kuwait through Soviet mediation on February 21, 1991. A statement made by George Bush on February 27, 1991, that no quarter would be given to remaining Iraqi soldiers violates even the U.S. Field Manual of 1956. <span id='postcolor'>

[PitViper 0]

Look what I found of relevance as I went through recent news:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2003/n02132003_200302131.html

Coalition Drops JDAM in Afghanistan

By Kathleen T. Rhem

American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Feb. 13, 2003 -- Fighting continues in southern Afghanistan with heavy aircraft called in to pound cave positions in northern Helmand Province, military officials report.

Late Feb. 12, a U.S. B-52 bomber dropped a 2,000-pound joint direct- attack munition "smart" bomb and an AC-130 gunship fired about 10 105 mm cannon rounds at the caves, a U.S. military spokesman said this morning from Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan.

Three men were "brought under control" after trying to evade U.S. military forces in the area, the spokesman said.

Published media reports have stated the night air attacks caused as many as 17 civilian casualties, but U.S. Central Command and Pentagon officials say this is not the case.

"Battle damage assessment conducted in support of Operation Eagle Fury has not indicated any noncombatant casualties to date," the spokesman in Bagram said. "Aircraft were directed at targets that were firing at U.S. forces."

Sporadic fighting has been going on in the area since Feb. 10.

-----------

you were saying something about no surrenduring on spectre ops denoir? Do you simply make this stuff up in your head?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Feb. 21 2003,14:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you were saying something about no surrenduring on spectre ops denoir? Do you simply make this stuff up in your head?<span id='postcolor'>

What are you talking about?   I never said that it was impossible to surrender to an AC-130 or Apache. I don't know if you are illiterate or WTF your problem is. For the fourth time:

<span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'>The ROE did not allow accepting surrender. The ROE denied quarters for the Iraqi</span>

Now read that five times.

Denial of quarters is a violation of the Geneva conventions and the fact that this occured after the cease-fire does not make things better.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 21 2003,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What are you talking about?   I never said that it was impossible to surrender to an AC-130 or Apache.<span id='postcolor'>

As I review the thread, that seems to be the suggestion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know if you are illiterate or WTF your problem is. For the fourth time:

<span style='font-size:59pt;line-height:100%'>THE ROE DID NOT ALLOW ACCEPTING SURRENDERS. THE ROE DENIED QUARTERS FOR THE IRAQI</span>

Now read that five times.<span id='postcolor'>

It seems to me that you have the problem.  I specifically told you that they did not engage troops who surrendered outright from the gulf war info I have read.  Do you have any proof of this ROE change other than pages of activists who have never done a day in the military?

and another thing,  I find yourt activity to be very unbecoming of a moderator, especially this post of yours.  Moderators aren't supposed to be the primary debater in most threads in the forum one moderates particularly with some of the positions you have taken.