Endgame mode, Bi hasn't believed in that

[zukov 490]

Is the only pvp mode that you can play on the BI terrains. Why BI you don't develop it anymore?
Need just some fine tunings (some animations already in game, the languages for QG maybe a more special forces oriented) but is still the most enjoyable PVP/PVE mode (and not a lag fest) in Arma games.

[froggyluv 2136]

Sorry for the O-Topic -but who is that lady in your avatar? For some reason i always see her as a punk rock lady with silver striped hair but when i really look its like she' s religious figure with a shawl over her hair

[zukov 490]

1 hour ago, froggyluv said:

Sorry for the O-Topic -but who is that lady in your avatar? For some reason i always see her as a punk rock lady with silver striped hair but when i really look its like she' s religious figure with a shawl over her hair

Is the "my" mayor of Rome Virginia Raggi

[drebin052 324]

*Vanguard making sad noises in the background*

 

It's only Warfare 3.0 Warlords or nothing nowadays. End Game's niche is already filled by KotH anyway so no ones going to jump back into a dead game mode.

[zukov 490]

2 hours ago, drebin052 said:

*Vanguard making sad noises in the background*

 

It's only Warfare 3.0 Warlords or nothing nowadays. End Game's niche is already filled by KotH anyway so no ones going to jump back into a dead game mode.

Vanguard is cute , warlords unfortunately is a lag fest and a lot of "dead times" during gameplay. I don't like KOTH, just the cashier at the beginning hurts my eyes and I leave the game

[krzychuzokecia 719]

Never tried EndGame nor Vanguard, but I'd love too (also that heli-only mode) - so if someone knows good server where those modes are played often, lemme know.

 

Problem is not that BI were not believing in those modes, but I think players were not - I never seen anyone playing them except for BI own streams. Warlords is fun and has some player-base, mostly because there really isn't a community straight-forward CTI style of mission like the old crCTI. I mean, yes there's some port of crCTI to Arma 3 but it barely works really, and other community "CTI-style" game modes are focused more on PvE (Liberation for example).

 

KOTH is really "the" Arma 3 PvP mode, since it's "easy to pickup, hard to master" insanity. EndGame... I suppose it's too slow for most of the "casual" players, and "serious" guys would rather play traditional co-ops in mil-sim vein. Of course there's question why traditional CTF/mini-BF died in Arma - my guess is that realistic additions to the player movement and weapon behaviour, while giving players more fluidity and possibilities, also reduced the pure arcade "kinetic" gameplay which made CTF great in good old OFP.

 

Which is funny because many OFP die-hards will argue that OFP is "more realistic" and Arma (especially Arma 3) is for "COD kiddies". One can't be further from truth...

[zukov 490]

I think that the problem in endgame is the Opfor faction, no one wants play like iranian /chinese from outer space and the voice actor of it isn't so fantastic. But the format is quite good if BI improves the compound AI, more special forces oriented, some animations, aircraft and drone additions, random locations where to upload the data and heli insertion at the start ...... . I have tried myself to make the chinese SF Viper less "ant man" is doable. The huge terrains in Arma series are playable (to me) in PVP just like Endgame or Dayz SA (persistent server and "sandbox" style)
my attempt on chinese viper ....... is become Splinter Cell 


definitive splinter cell

[zukov 490]

UBISOFT,  with a game mode like Endgame,  has developed an entire game (yes is garbage)
 

 

[Janez 531]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:20 PM, krzychuzokecia said:

Problem is not that BI were not believing in those modes, but I think players were not

Well, of course since the game modes were half-arsed. Releasing something very basic and going "let's see how it goes / if there is interest, we develop further" doesn't work on large scale and besides, who is gonna wait six months, eight months, a year? Two years? For it to be developed. BR-like craze and short attention span of many gamers today doesn't help either. So, I think OP may be right with the title.

 

Warfare in Arma 1 was an instant hit because it was feature complete and it worked on launch. It was simple too and AI was very autonomous, you could order squads around but generally they went along capturing sectors without you - the commander - having to babysit them, so you could easily focus on your own squad and most importantly participate or even lead/carry your side to victory... or demise. 😄

I could go on but basically, those were most important things that were never executed successfully since. I don't know if anyone remembers, a lot of people from that era are gone from these forums but the community ingame was absolutely fantastic and it came together through this game mode. I'm not talking about couple of forum lurkers, I'm talking about thousands of players, that play the game nearly every day and never go on forums or twitter or whatever. So if the game, game mode or server is not it, they leave and mostly, never come back. You only have one shot at winning their hearts.

 

To a degree, I understand BI though. Like you said in Cyberpunk thread I think, if you pour a lot of resources into something and it flops... well, you may just be done for.

 

On 1/18/2022 at 1:20 PM, krzychuzokecia said:

Which is funny because many OFP die-hards will argue that OFP is "more realistic" and Arma (especially Arma 3) is for "COD kiddies". One can't be further from truth...

For real? Granted I don't hang around OFP section much since... well Armed Assault released I suppose but I get the sentiment of your post, I think it has some merit.

 

On 1/18/2022 at 1:20 PM, krzychuzokecia said:

also that heli-only mode

Haha, I was pulling my hair out with that one trying to get the achievement. I don't think I managed to get it though, it had some generic number of transports for you to do within time/point limit and there was always some asshole AI not wanting to get into the heli. Otherwise it's a cool game mode but also quite niche I suppose but you can play it alone with AI vs AI iirc.

 

On 1/18/2022 at 1:57 PM, zukov said:

I think that the problem in endgame is the Opfor faction, no one wants play like iranian /chinese from outer space and the voice actor of it isn't so fantastic.

There are some people that seem to hold issue with this but generally, I don't think so. From some of your other posts lately, you seem to project the lack of a game you describe. Nothing wrong with that of course, you have an itch and I miss classic Ubisoft style games (we will probably never get again) as well, but it's not a solution for matters at hand either.

[zukov 490]

13 minutes ago, Janez said:

From some of your other posts lately, you seem to project the lack of a game you describe. Nothing wrong with that of course, you have an itch and I miss classic Ubisoft style games (we will probably never get again) as well, but it's not a solution for matters at hand either.

I don't hope. that BI will puts some resources to develop their game MP modes, but a little effort in the past...., the 3 (three) phrases in russian from the QG in Endgame was mandatory.  With Specnaz in opfor, maybe we had tell another history for this game mode. about Warfare is better than warlord the fast travel ruins all immersion. the trucks in warfare put more tactics then a simple wawe to target, other than is a massive lag fest

[britforce 9]

I think the playerbase has changed quite a lot.

[galzohar 31]

If you think a faction is what will make or break a game mode you should re-inspect current and historical status of servers. If a game mode is crap then no aesthetics are going to help. If a game mode is cool but has many abuse-able features that don't get tweaked quickly enough, it will die fast even if the concept was cool to begin with. And also if it's not tuned properly to the current status (number of players, available time of players, etc). End-game had many ways to abuse it pretty badly and was not scaling well for smaller number of players, and it didn't get the required effort to keep it playable (and even with major effort, some design flaws that can be abused are not simple to fix without breaking something else).

[krzychuzokecia 719]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:35 PM, Janez said:

Well, of course since the game modes were half-arsed. Releasing something very basic and going "let's see how it goes / if there is interest, we develop further" doesn't work on large scale and besides, who is gonna wait six months, eight months, a year? Two years? For it to be developed.

Fair point, but "half-arsed" is kind of the SOP for BI in Arma 3 era. So, as sad as it is, it's not like community is not used to take BI's barely playable ideas and turn them into something worth attention. And then - I really don't know if EndGame is indeed one of such "raw" projects - from very few YT vids/streams I saw, it seemed pretty finished - you got two opposing teams, objective, distinctive phases of gameplay. Pretty simple, I don't know what else is needed, apart maybe from porting it to some popular mods if someone really hates bug-eye Iranians (as if weird CTRG is any better).

 

Hence I say the Arma audience was the one that felt indifferent to the whole idea of "CS-like" game mode. EndGame being one victim of that, good old CTF being the other. And IMO comparison with Warfare is rather wrong, since Warfare is really a clone (fork?) of community-born CTI - heck, IIRC the guy behind Arma 1 Warfare was author of one of the OFP CTI variants. So this is example of BI adopting a community idea, not the other way around (like with EndGame).

 

(Of course don't get me started on why the hell we don't have good CTI in Arma 3 anymore. Warlords kind of sucks, even if it gets rid of some elements I disliked in crCTI, MFCTI and Warfare. And the existing crCTI ports are even worse than Warlords - the clunkiness and bugs just kill them outright)

 

On 1/31/2022 at 1:35 PM, Janez said:

Haha, I was pulling my hair out with that one trying to get the achievement. I don't think I managed to get it though, it had some generic number of transports for you to do within time/point limit and there was always some asshole AI not wanting to get into the heli. Otherwise it's a cool game mode but also quite niche I suppose but you can play it alone with AI vs AI iirc.

 

Ah, yes, yes, someone shares my suffering! For me however it was usually some enemy infantry shooting me down - I would love to have armed wingman, but in solo play you're really have to count on yourself when it comes to heli CAS.

 

And yes, it's niche, but even that idea is apparently worth separate game as proven by Heliborne existence (I think that's the source of A3 mode, but I may be wrong). The gameplay loop in Heliborne is virtually identical to A3 version, the only difference is obviously in amount of flyable helis and terrains, but then Arma is not just helicopter-focused game. So lack of interest in this mode in Arma, coupled with apparent interest in this kind of gameplay in the "outside world", again tells me that majority of Arma folks is just not into this kind of PvP stuff. Which (by seeing the fate of "classic" OFP PvP/TvT modes like CTI and CTF, and then it's Arma clones) leads me to the general conclusion that, with exception of KOTH "nuts" (and the good folks at ATC!), Arma folks really went into coop/PvE/PvAI/whatever you wanna call it.

 

8 minutes ago, galzohar said:

End-game had many ways to abuse it pretty badly and was not scaling well for smaller number of players, and it didn't get the required effort to keep it playable (and even with major effort, some design flaws that can be abused are not simple to fix without breaking something else).

 

...and that's interesting to hear, and might explain the demise of this mode. Now, I don't want to get into the technical details, but since I never really played EndGame, could you describe (again, without going into the naughty details) how typical abuse looked like?

 

On 1/31/2022 at 1:35 PM, Janez said:

For real? Granted I don't hang around OFP section much since...

 

Well, OFP section here is pretty much dead (as most of the Forum these days...), but on the various OFP-focused Discords and Facebook groups one just not simply mention Arma 3 and walks away unscathed! :D

[Janez 531]

3 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

So lack of interest in this mode in Arma, coupled with apparent interest in this kind of gameplay in the "outside world", again tells me that majority of Arma folks is just not into this kind of PvP stuff. Which (by seeing the fate of "classic" OFP PvP/TvT modes like CTI and CTF, and then it's Arma clones) leads me to the general conclusion that, with exception of KOTH "nuts" (and the good folks at ATC!), Arma folks really went into coop/PvE/PvAI/whatever you wanna call it.

One thing that I think is important to point out is that achieving PvP with relatively low number of players is a lot more difficult in Arma then something like, let's say Battlefield. Most vehicles but tanks for example, you need at least two people to even get it moving, let alone have it fully operational, while one player can be completely effective in BF. Some measures to mitigate things were on trial over the years, such as radar for all seats to ease non verbal communication between crew members on public lobbies but then all the realism anoraks came with their pitchforks 🙂 and so that wasn't a thing anymore.

So you see, PvP in Arma is like organized racing in non iRacing racing games/sims (drinking game for word... I'll go hide now). It takes a huge group effort to make it happen, you need serious and dedicated people, unless... you have a flushed out, polished game mode where AI can easily replace lack of players and aid them, instead of hindering the player. That is very important.

From that perspective, that heli scenario is pretty good even with ahole AI :), but then again how many times have you not seen a heli flip over on take off on public servers. 😄

 

Oh btw, remember when: "left, left, left, forward, left, forward, fast, right, fast, hold, HOLD! (tent collapses awkwardly)" spam delay was finally removed? Maybe we go can play some PvP now or just enjoy tanks without having to switch seats all the time? Absolutely not! Here come the immersion anoraks. 😄

 

3 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

Fair point, but "half-arsed" is kind of the SOP for BI in Arma 3 era.

Ah yes, for you and me but refer to my previous post on how BI forum echo chamber is actually a very small portion of player base. To bolster my point, remember Arma 2 release? I've had a pretty substantial group of regulars from Arma 1, guess how many remained after Arma 2 launch. One, it was only me and incidentally, I was also the only BIF lurker out of the group.

 

3 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

Pretty simple, I don't know what else is needed, apart maybe from porting it to some popular mods if someone really hates bug-eye Iranians (as if weird CTRG is any better).

A lot, refer to @galzohar's post. And seriously, bug-eye Iranians is a nonissue. Let's not even get bogged down on that sort of thing. Besides, where is that railgun T-100!?!

 

I played EndGame when it was released. I played a quite lot of everything come to think of it, be it official or not but in regards to EndGame, I remember that whole getting from base to objectives and transportation in general was a huge issue for pubs. So many players just stranded in the middle of nowhere. Now, it was quite a long time ago and wasn't something that left a lasting impression on me, speculating and pondering solutions. It was yet another WIP in terms of flow and seemingly abandoned upon launch. So I cannot say precisely what and why but that is something that stayed with me to this day. It's not necessarily like wrong vehicles were used or something, a lot has to be tweaked and tuned, things like respawn timers for vehicles, UI helpers, notifications, etc.

@galzohar's post pretty much summarizes my entire sentiment on this thread into one paragraph though, which... eh, what can I say, I like to talk to people that put the effort into talking.

 

[krzychuzokecia 719]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, Janez said:

Ah yes, for you and me but refer to my previous post on how BI forum echo chamber is actually a very small portion of player base.

Oh, I'm aware. Truth be told, I'm far from being BI fanboy anymore, Contact cured me from that. And while there's huge resentment on BIF against other "communities" - especially Steam forums - I have to say that when it comes to Arma 3, some of the best, argumented, critique against the game I read in those other places.

On 2/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, Janez said:

Here come the immersion anoraks.

Hey! As self-appointed "immersion anorak" I resemble that remark! :D But yeah, there's a lot of truth to what you said.

 

Thanks for your input on EndGame itself! As for respawning in base, far from action and with no vehs - well, "immersion anorak" (that's lovely term, really :D) would say, maybe that's why you shouldn't have respawn, just revive? Of course that requires the teams to be full at mission start, no JIP. Or just go for the simplest solution of spawning near the team-member, which IIRC is already done in Apex co-op campaign. I may be wrong, but wasn't EndGame introduced with Apex also? No idea why one of them has that feature and other not.

[Janez 531]

21 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

I may be wrong, but wasn't EndGame introduced with Apex also?

No, that was something else or a different/adopted version. Apparently it was released with Marksmen DLC back in April of 2015, so a good year before Apex.

 

21 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

As for respawning in base, far from action and with no vehs - well, "immersion anorak" (that's lovely term, really :D) would say, maybe that's why you shouldn't have respawn, just revive? Of course that requires the teams to be full at mission start, no JIP. Or just go for the simplest solution of spawning near the team-member, which IIRC is already done in Apex co-op campaign.

Maybe, honestly I'd have to play it thoroughly again to give any meaningful input on exact issues and possible solutions as it was quite a long time ago at this point but an interesting proposition nonetheless. One thing to keep in mind though is that no JIP etc. also means heavy and accurate coms requirement for teams and that is not something you can expect from a public lobby. It's difficult as is in CS for example and Arma is inherently on a much larger scale, even is "CS-like" game mode, although a lot can be done through visual aids and game flow design and tweaking. I suppose, to a degree, one would have to decide who the target audience is and if there even is one, while also not bloating the game.

 

21 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

And while there's huge resentment on BIF against other "communities"

There is? I mean, for example, I personally do not understand the global push for Discord. I see it's usefulness for certain types of conversations but it is not the be-all and end-all "solution" to a "problem" that does not exist nor is it a replacement for a properly moderated forum. Is there a monetary value there? Regardless, I do not resent it's users or their opinions, I simply have no need or desire to open an account there and agree to their ToS and whatnot. I would actually say that it, in a way, is creating a problem because a lot of modding tools and resources for some other games that were once publicly available and open source, are now gated on Discord.

 

Similarly, for someone like me who likes to install mods manually and tends to keep everything overly organized, Aholic was far better solution then Steam Workshop. Also, downloading full installation files from GoG is such a joy in this day and age but OK, if Steam gave BI and easier time updating the game and whatnot, I rolled with it. And to be fair, Steam came a long way in past decade in terms for functionality and is far ahead of anything else. However, again, I do not see why anyone would have something against a user of Steam forums in general. I mean, if someone is being an arse, that is going to be the case regardless of platform.

 

Steam reviews vary from "waaaaa, this sucks!!!" to incredibly elaborate pieces that I truly enjoy going through from time to time, therefore why would forums be any different? So in typical Slavic fashion, after numerous paragraphs :D, I guess my point is that perhaps there is a disdain for Steam itself rather then it's users? But then again, I certainly don't hang out in every corner of BIF so perhaps I'm missing something?

 

21 hours ago, krzychuzokecia said:

I have to say that when it comes to Arma 3, some of the best, argumented, critique against the game I read in those other places.

I bet! Now with AH dead - RIP, authors around here tend to be accommodating to the likes of me and generally provide an alternative mirror to SW, thanks! So plenty of guys from here are on Steam as well but I also encountered people having the exact same sentiment in regards to something as me, here, as I cannot be bothered to maintain two Steam accounts and I don't want to put things I payed for in jeopardy just because someone potentially doesn't like something, it is the age of professionally outraged after all. Something akin you at least once experienced yourself IIRC?

[britforce 9]

On 2/5/2022 at 12:30 AM, Janez said:

BI forum echo chamber is actually a very small portion of player base.

Yes your right, this forum makes up a small portion of the playerbase I would think.

 

I come from the continous wargaming side of the series. We play v's ai almost always and use a points system to progress sides within the world. We work within a limited number of terrains, but more than enough to build a comprehensive gaming world.

 

I don't think there is any actual right or wrong way to play the series, with the editor you can develop a way to play that suits you and your friends playing style. That is the beauty of the series in general I think.