The Iraq Thread

[Jinef 2]

Reminds me of when Brecht was considered to be communist by the American society of communist haters or whatever (HUAC) and they did an interview.

http://www.worldzone.net/arts/doktorgee/HUAC.htm

[Balschoiw 0]

There are no comfirmed SCUDS. Even today a really long time after their impact there is no comfirmation that any of the missiles has been a scud.

It´s more likely and parts of following missiles have been found and already indentified:

Samoud missiles

Frog 7 / Luna-M

Also there was positive ident on :

M-87 Orkan 262mm rocket launchers,

named Ababil-50 in Iraq.

I don´t go into justification of this war but it´s plain simple as Kofi Annan already stated.

A WAR WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE UN, STARTED BY ONE OF IT`S MEMBERS IS ILLEGAL AND AGAINST LAW.

It´s not like you have to be smart or a lawyer to understand this.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Mar. 22 2003,12:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also there was positive ident on :

M-87 Orkan 262mm rocket launchers,

named Ababil-50 in Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Nasty weapon. I know quite a few UN soldiers whose positions were attacked by Orkan's in Bosnia and they had nothing pleasent to say about the experience.

[Balschoiw 0]

The truck mounted system carries a dozen 262mm (10.3 inch) rockets with a range of fifty kilometers. There are three types of cluster bomb warheads for this rocket. One carries 30, another 300 antipersonnel bomblets and the third 288 antipersonnel mines. There may be a few dozen or so of these launchers left.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 21 2003,12:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Over 100,000 iraqis live in the Detroit Michigan area, and the majority overwhelmingly support the war in iraq<span id='postcolor'>

Reminds me of Fuehrer Propaganda....

I am sure the Iraqis in the US are shouting in a choire: "yes please bomb our relatives so they are being freed from Saddam".

Well we have a hell lot of Iraqis in europe as well and I just have to cross the road to get to the next Kebab-stand in order to ask for an opinion. Everyone here agrees that Saddam is surpressing the nation but everyone here also agrees that the americans would be the last ones that would be asked for help (at least from an arab perspective).

I may also assume that any Iraqi in the US now would feel frigthened to state the opposite and therefore be considered a "potential terorist". With such a reputation you would loose any sympathy in your neighbourhood.

Revenge yes...but revenge means hitting the person himself and not the persons around him. WHAT THE F.UCK has this list on the SHIP to do with the iraqis ...they werent involved in any of those incidents..(the list basically implies that all arabs are terorists).so the question remains open...why are we here??? Answer it to me!!! In the beginning it was terrorism prevention (yes good justification...why dont we ban everyone here in order to prevent them breaking the forum rules beforehand)...then it was liberation of the people...then it was revenge...and now it simply is bloodthirst and all masks of justifications have been dropped. Whether this war is a clean war does not change jackshit...it is still an unjustified war.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't try to explain Albert, all everyone says is: "He gassed his own people!" or "It's all media!"

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (//relic// @ Mar. 22 2003,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This media war, with footage depicting destruction, maiming and killing is a sad commentary on the perverse and disgusting nature of western society that a war becomes nothing more than entertainment for the masses.<span id='postcolor'>

replace "western media" with "world media" and it still stands

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 22 2003,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (//relic// @ Mar. 22 2003,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This media war, with footage depicting destruction, maiming and killing is a sad commentary on the perverse and disgusting nature of western society that a war becomes nothing more than entertainment for the masses.<span id='postcolor'>

replace "western media" with "world media" and it still stands <span id='postcolor'>

It may be measured by the sales figures of classical 'entertainment snacks' in different nations/regions during the war.

I heared a report some days ago about the potato chips salesment in the USA is going up big time now. Maybe snacks will join tape and gasmasks as articles in short supply...  

But as I said earlier, I also with sadness remember my own behaviour during the last Gulf war.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Mar. 22 2003,18:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I heared a report some days ago about the potato chips salesment in the USA is going up big time now. Maybe snacks will join tape and gasmasks as articles in short supply...  <span id='postcolor'>

kinda goes both ways. ppl might be watching war on TV and eating snacks, or they are watching video rentals to escape grim reality and eat potato cheaps....

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 22 2003,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Mar. 22 2003,18:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I heared a report some days ago about the potato chips salesment in the USA is going up big time now. Maybe snacks will join tape and gasmasks as articles in short supply...  <span id='postcolor'>

kinda goes both ways. ppl might be watching war on TV and eating snacks, or they are watching video rentals to escape grim reality and eat potato cheaps.... <span id='postcolor'>

Indeed.

btw. have anyone heared anything more about that Iranian oil raffinery that was hit by a missile last night?

[ralphwiggum 6]

US says it could have happened due to failure in GPS system in missiles.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/22/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A Tomahawk cruise missile might have missed its Iraqi target, instead landing in southwest Iran, Pentagon officials said Saturday. Military officials are investigating the possibility. Hundreds of cruise missiles were used during the coalition bombing attacks Friday. <span id='postcolor'>

and more attack on Baghdad.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ROR @ Mar. 21 2003,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Europe is far better of today than it was on May 8 1945  ...As europeans shout in an inaudible voice "Thanks Marshall Plan"<span id='postcolor'>

And what is the US currently promising Iraq?  ...Something quite similar to the Marshall Plan, no?  Perhaps it will be called the Frank Plan or the Powell Plan.  I just hope that the Iraqi people will read the fine print about having to subjugate their opinions to those of the USA for most of the next century. That way we might avoid any future 'gratitude gaps' like the ones that recently opened up between the US and Old Europe.

[Longinius 1]

There was another anit-war demonstration in Copenhagen today. The interesting part was that we were having a Raven Shield press event today, where the journalists got to try out how it felt to be in an AT squad (full authentic kit and hardball weapon replicas). On the way between the office where they got outfitted and the shooting range we got caught in the demonstration. A bunch of guys in a van with large open windows in full kit, with weapon replicas. Hmmm, well, it caught the attention of atleast a couple of people.

The event was very entertaining however

[ROR 0]

When was the last time any other country in the world besides the U.S. lost 2800 people to terrorists attacks in one day; none.

Saddam and al-qaeda hate the U.S. and from what I gather that has been written on this forum most of europe does too.

Saddam has been in active search of weapons of mass destruction. How you can not draw a conclusion that iraq could supply al qaeda or any other group with weapons of mass destruction is daft, down right obtuse. The guy who was in charge of the iraqi nuclear weapons development program said that inspectors would never find nuclear materials ( That was supplied by the french).  They have been trying to disarm iraq for 12 years, how f.ucking long to you want it to go on. We are not going to wait for some nuclear , biological, or chemical weapon to be released in the U.S. before we react. There does not have to be any links between iraq and al qaeda, iraq COULD supply al qaeda. As long as this is a possibillity we will prevent it.

Maybe if you lost 2800 people, you would have a different stance on the matter.

[Longinius 1]

"When was the last time any other country in the world besides the U.S. lost 2800 people to terrorists attacks in one day; none."

Why does it matter if they died on one day, in one year or in ten?

"Saddam and al-qaeda hate the U.S. and from what I gather that has been written on this forum most of europe does too."

No, actually very few people here, extremely few, have said they hate America. As for Saddam hating the US, it isnt so strange. I would hate it to if I was Saddam.

"There does not have to be any links between iraq and al qaeda, iraq COULD supply al qaeda. As long as this is a possibillity we will prevent it."

So now any nation that COULD supply an enemy to the US should be attacked? You just declared war on the world, since all nations COULD supply your enemies. Good luck!

[ROR 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So now any nation that COULD supply an enemy to the US should be attacked? You just declared war on the world, since all nations COULD supply your enemies. Good luck!<span id='postcolor'>

What did I say about being obtuse.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why does it matter if they died on one day, in one year or in ten?<span id='postcolor'>

You can't kill 10 people anymore and get any real attention. 2800 people were killed at once, that is what the bar is set at now. Why should europe care what happens to the U.S., all the hate is directed towards the U.S. In the end it is all about covering your own ass, and that is what we are doing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for Saddam hating the US, it isnt so strange. I would hate it to if I was Saddam.<span id='postcolor'>

How you state it, it sounds like you think saddam is justified in his hate. Did you forget what the iraqi people did to the kuwaitis, what iraqis did to the kurds.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ROR @ Mar. 22 2003,19:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saddam has been in active search of weapons of mass destruction. How you can not draw a conclusion that iraq could supply al qaeda or any other group with weapons of mass destruction is daft, down right obtuse. The guy who was in charge of the iraqi nuclear weapons development program said that inspectors would never find nuclear materials ( That was supplied by the french).  They have been trying to disarm iraq for 12 years, how f.ucking long to you want it to go on. We are not going to wait for some nuclear , biological, or chemical weapon to be released in the U.S. before we react. There does not have to be any links between iraq and al qaeda, iraq COULD supply al qaeda. As long as this is a possibillity we will prevent it.<span id='postcolor'>

While we are speculating (or indeed venting paranoid views), I got a much more likely scenario:

The Bush administration will ruin everything good that the USA one was, and could be.

btw. I'm afraid the USA will loose the media war this time. Just look at the reported casualties from last nights massive bombings: 3 dead! The Iraqis are probably trying to look trustworthy, only to start reporting very nasty things when it suits them. And unfortionally I belive that Bush has already passed Saddam with a new lowscore on the international liar barometer... Probably 90% of his statements when adressing the nation and the world on the moday were outright lies  

[Longinius 1]

"You can't kill 10 people anymore and get any real attention. 2800 people were killed at once, that is what the bar is set at now. Why should europe care what happens to the U.S., all the hate is directed towards the U.S. In the end it is all about covering your own ass, and that is what we are doing."

How many of the people that died in the WTC were American, and how many came from the rest of the world? Do you even know that there was a huge portion of casualties that werent Americans?

"How you state it, it sounds like you think saddam is justified in his hate. Did you forget what the iraqi people did to the kuwaitis, what iraqis did to the kurds."

He is justified in his hate against the American government because it is the government that put him in power, supplied him with WMD's, cheered him on while murdering Kurds and now use it as an excuse to attack him. If I was in his shoes, I'd be pissed aswell.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 22 2003,11:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He is justified in his hate against the American government because it is the government that put him in power, supplied him with WMD's, cheered him on while murdering Kurds and now use it as an excuse to attack him. If I was in his shoes, I'd be pissed aswell.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, for the 99,0000th time, the US did NOT put him in power. He came to power through his own machinations. The US supported him later (as did France and the UK) as a counterbalance to the perceived threat from Iran.

Nor did the US give him WMD. A US company sold him the cultures (admittedly this had to be ok'd by the State Dept). France and Germany supplied him with the equipment to turn it into a weapon. France also sold him a nuclear reactor that would produce weapons grade material.

I also would like proof that Sadaam was "cheered" on after the attacks on the Kurds. Last time I looked at a calender there wasn't a "Happy murdered Kurds" day.

Also, it would serve you to remember that there is the possibility of a new govt in the U.S. every four years. An extremely unfortunate side effect of this is the varied foreign policies that have come out of Washington. I don't like it either, but it's a fact.

[Longinius 1]

"Ok, for the 99,0000th time, the US did NOT put him in power. He came to power through his own machinations."

Debateble. Some say he was supported by the CIA.

"Nor did the US give him WMD. A US company sold him the cultures (admittedly this had to be ok'd by the State Dept)."

Atleast one shipment was sent from the US army center for bacteriological research in Fort Detrick. (Mentioned in an article in new York Times on the 28th of february 1998). A US army installation is about as American as it can ever get.

"I also would like proof that Sadaam was "cheered" on after the attacks on the Kurds. Last time I looked at a calender there wasn't a "Happy murdered Kurds" day. "

After the attack on Kurds at Halabaja in 1988 the US did not call out against the masskillings or try to do anything about it. Instead the support for Saddam increased. Biological material for example continued to be delivered until as late as 1989 when Bush Sr. also granted Saddam a substantial loan. If they had not supported the killings of Kurds, why did they continue cooperating and supporting him?

"Also, it would serve you to remember that there is the possibility of a new govt in the U.S. every four years. An extremely unfortunate side effect of this is the varied foreign policies that have come out of Washington. I don't like it either, but it's a fact."

Just because a government changes it doesnt mean that the over all agenda does. There hasnt been a very big difference in how America has acted throughout various administrations since well before the Vietnam war. 4 years is such a short period that its nearly impossible to make any major changes in policy. Besides, various lobby groups maintain the same influences no matter who is in charge, and their agenda keeps influencing the decesions that are made.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 22 2003,11:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Debateble. Some say he was supported by the CIA.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, if you want to talk about unproven could be's then I'll raise you a "Some say he was supported by the French Government." See travel schedule of one Jeac Chirac.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Atleast one shipment was sent from the US army center for bacteriological research in Fort Detrick. (Mentioned in an article in new York Times on the 28th of february 1998). A US army installation is about as American as it can ever get.<span id='postcolor'>

Hey now, there you go again ignoring the whole story. We didn't send him munitions prefilled OR the equipment needed to turn the cultures into weapons. I say again, talk to France and Germany about that part.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After the attack on Kurds at Halabaja in 1988 the US did not call out against the masskillings or try to do anything about it. Instead the support for Saddam increased. Biological material for example continued to be delivered until as late as 1989 when Bush Sr. also granted Saddam a substantial loan. If they had not supported the killings of Kurds, why did they continue cooperating and supporting him?<span id='postcolor'>

I could ask you the same of the gruesome twosome, France and Germany. Shipments continued from both of those countries all the way till the recent inspections.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just because a government changes it doesnt mean that the over all agenda does. There hasnt been a very big difference in how America has acted throughout various administrations since well before the Vietnam war. 4 years is such a short period that its nearly impossible to make any major changes in policy. Besides, various lobby groups maintain the same influences no matter who is in charge, and their agenda keeps influencing the decesions that are made.<span id='postcolor'>

There is no way I can agree with you on that one. The U.S. has had a haphazard foreign policy since the late 60s. And the administrations have acted WILDLY different. There is no way to compare the Carter administrations foreign policy with the current administrations. I have no interest in joining the tinfoil hat brigade, so I don't really put much into everyones claims about lobbys and outside influences.

[Longinius 1]

"Ok, if you want to talk about unproven could be's then I'll raise you a "Some say he was supported by the French Government." See travel schedule of one Jeac Chirac."

And I wouldnt argue with you. He probably was supported by both France and Germany.

"Hey now, there you go again ignoring the whole story. We didn't send him munitions prefilled OR the equipment needed to turn the cultures into weapons. I say again, talk to France and Germany about that part."

Uhm, what did you guys think he would use it for then? Baking?

"I could ask you the same of the gruesome twosome, France and Germany. Shipments continued from both of those countries all the way till the recent inspections."

You are right again. I never said anything to the contrary. We were talking about if Saddam had a reason to hate the US. France and Germany has little, if anything, to do with that particular discussion.

"I have no interest in joining the tinfoil hat brigade, so I don't really put much into everyones claims about lobbys and outside influences."

So the millions of dollars spent by lobby groups have no influence whatsoever on US foreign policy? Yeah, right...

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Well whilst Longinius and Othin are mostly cancelling each other out i must agree with Othin that foreign policy has indeed changed drasticly in SOME respects with administrations

-whilst others have tended to remain similar-

quite possibly due (who knows how much)to those lobby groups Longinius mentions.

I dont think special interest lobbying groups can be simply discounted from US politics (least of all foreign policy), that seems to me like a wilful blindness. Look at the money involved. There are massive sums invested in lobbying politicians (and the various forms of pressurising employed )

-and where there is money there tends to be power-

and potential for corruption.

US politics is way behind in getting the money situation under control. The bills for political campaigns at the moment are

just astronomical and i personally (as a foreigner) wont trust Washington as far as i can throw it as long as the-*nudge nudge*wink*wink*-money is flowing like Iraqi oil soon will be.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Having said that i think the outcome everyone should be hoping for now (and praying if religious)

is a swift resolution to this conflict.

And the best way realistically of achieving that now is a rapid Iraqi defeat ,if possible without having to kill Iraqi regulars for the most part.

I hope everyone in Iraq outside of Saddams immediate control force stays safe and alive (not least my fellow countrymen all too many of whom have already fallen)US British Australian troops and Iraqi civilians and unwilling soldiers, i wish them all well and i hope everyone here does.

[IceFire 0]

Well it sounds like we're winning!!

Yay!!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Some preconditional statements have to be made:

I would never behave unfriendly to an american tourist because of the recent incidents.

Secondly, germany has one of the strongest weapon export regulations and governmental supervision. The problem is only that germany has a great history of technological development in this area and therefore is the perfect soil for related smuggling.

Thirdly, I must emphasise that the plans for Iraq cannot be compared to the Marshall plans since Germany was a country with a democratic tradition and eager to reimplement it after the war. Iraq has no such tradition and therefore implementing democracy in Iraq would be like telling an elephant to wear high-heels.

Thirdly, the US (in contrast to the UK, France and Spain) has no experience in the area of governing colony-like states. America will try to make the Iraqis think the american way instead of adopting a system that fits into the arab environment. Want an example? Well did you know that the pirate radio station by the US army (that was meant to convince Iraqi soldiers to surrender) played the US0 charts day and night...it took those morons a week till they understood that not everyone likes R&B in Iraq and till they implemented arab music! This is not the cultural sensitivity that I expect from a nation that wants to keep up the iraqi cultural eco-system!