The Iraq Thread

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 13 2003,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 13 2003,05<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was pretty stupid of them  to guard the museum so poorly.  I wonder how thinly stretched their forces are, or if it was just a command screw up.

The backlash will be forceful.

Still, even if they are ancient artifacts, and even if they hold a lot of history, to me, people are almost always more important than stuff.  People can reproduce, but if your friend dies, that person is gone.  Their decendents may resemble them, you may meet other people like them, but someone close to you has been erased off the face of the earth.

Losing ancient relics and artifacts is a tragedy, but to me, losing people is almost always far worse.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think you realize the scale of this disaster. Torching the Louvre would have been less disasterous. You could destroy every museum in America and you would not come near the damage that was done here.

If you want a war crime, this is it. According to the Geneva conventions the occupational forces must enforce law and order and prevent looting and the destruction of property. If I had a say, I would execute the complete chain of command responisble for this,   starting with Bush. I'm against the death penalty, but in this case I'm willing to pull the trigger myself.<span id='postcolor'>

I am absolutely aware of the scope of this.

I know a little bit about the Mesopotamian cultures and am aware of a bit of the history of Babylon and Assyria.  This doesn't change my stance on the subject.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurts @ ,)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But without the artifacts, how can the knowledge be backed up? It would be like if Tutankhamens tomb was blown up and all his artifacts were either destroyed or stolen. A history book can still talk about his life and show pictures of what the artifacts looked like, but you can't go into a museum and see the artifacts any more. And if someone says its all fake, you don't have proof to show them that they are wrong. Just words and pictures that could be faked. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and that's a shame, but almost nothing survived from Sumer, and yet we still know of roughly where and when it was, what they did and what they accomplished.  The 'stuff' is gone, the knowledge lives on.

However, fi you are dead, the knowledge is meaningless to you, the stuff is meaningless to you, because you are not alive, you do not exist as a persona nymore.  Thus, lives are more important than stuff, cultural knowledge is more important than stuff.  If it can't be back ed up, it can't be backed up.  I know you won't agree, and this is fine.  I really can see your side in this.  But again, it doesn't change my viewpoint.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

About how severe the looting of the Museum of Iraq is, imagine this: Every single painting done by famous artists are brought together and put into one museum. The country that museum is in becomes a dictatorship and then 25 years later it is liberated. There is lots of looting and the museum is looted and all the famous paintings of the world are either destroyed or taken off to hang on the wall of the looters homes. It would just be such a huge loss. <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (blaegis @ April 13 2003,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I cannot believe you actually said that. "Just stuff"?!?!? Irreplaceable artifacts of Mesopotamia, the cradle of our civilization, are now gone forever because of indifference or negligence. Those soldiers should have fought to the death to protect the museum (not that it would even be necessary, a couple iof shots in the air would've dispersed the looters). Your ignorance, and ignorance of those in the chain of command that allowed this to happen truly knows no bounds. <span id='postcolor'>

Artifacts are useless to dead people, irreplacable or not.

I'm not defending the soldiers actions.  I'm not defending the chain of commands actions.

I do not disagree that they were responsible for those artifacts and should be held accountable.

I still maintain, that it is just stuff, just objects that, if not preserved in a museum, would have likely faded to dust sooner or later, and been forgotten.

I will also argue with denoir's implacation that allowing this looting to occur is more of a war crime than those civilian lives on his ticker.

I am aware of the artifacts lost.  I am aware of the value of the artifacts.  I know this, and I dispute that these irreplacable artifacts are more valuable than life, without which, thiese artifacts would have no meaning, and further than that, would not exist.

If you still feel I am ignorant on this issue, please explain to0 me in clear terms how this is so, because I am appeaernly ignorant of my own ignorance.

Edit: I tried to put the syntax as denoir pointed it out to me, but it doesn't seem to be working.  

Denoir's edit: sure it works, you just have to have equally many open and close quote tags.

Edit 2: Oh, I thought I did. Please excuse my stupidity. Yes, you may quote me on that.

[Major Fubar 0]

I was fortunate enough to see the ancient Sumerian display at the Melbourne museum when it was here.

What a waste. Stupid, stupid people...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 13 2003,13:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am aware of the artifacts lost.  I am aware of the value of the artifacts.  I know this, and I dispute that these irreplacable artifacts are more valuable than life, without which, thiese artifacts would have no meaning, and further than that, would not exist.<span id='postcolor'>

There are plenty of human beings while these are unique pieces of our civilization's history. It's very sad when people die, but people reproduce. For individual people the loss of loved ones is a greater tragedy then the destruction and theft of stuff in a museum, but overall those artifacts are more important to our civilization as whole.

Furthermore one can argue that most of the civilian casualties could not have been avoided (except for not going to war in the first place). The looting of the National Museum in Baghdad could have easily been avoided. It's not like they weren't aware of the existance of the museum, they just didn't care. I suppose that's not surprising when their commander-in-chief is a half-illiterate Texas hillbilly who neither knows nor cares about world history and culture.

Besides Bush, Tommy Franks should be held accountable for on purpose issuing a ROE that didn't stop, but helped the looting.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

Yes, I agree with that point.

And as I said before, I do feel strongly that those responsible should be punished for this.

...but they won't be. It's a sad fact, but true. They might be sacked from their jobs, but even that isn't too likely.

I think I'll go load up Op Flash and go shoot some virtual Americans.

Maybe I should make a Mongoose model so when people get irritated at me, they can go shoot me.

Hmm... back on topic, any new developments from The Land of the Rising Sand?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 13 2003,16:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm... back on topic, any new developments from The Land of the Rising Sand?<span id='postcolor'>

I heard an interesting report today from Ĺsne Seirestad, Swedish TV's correspondent in Baghdad. She has been going around town, interviewing people at their homes. It seems like a lot of the people doing the cheering and the looting are ex. Saddam loyalist while the regular people are sitting tight at home, scared of the looting and the war. She said that they are all very embarrased about the looting and the picture it gives of the Iraqi people.

Another interesting thing is a strikning similarity between the Stalinist Soviet union and Saddam's Iraq. Apparently most Iraqis have high regard for Saddam, saying that he is a good man while the balme was to put on corrupt low-level Baath party officials. It's very similar to how prisoners in Gulag used to say "If Stalin only knew..", blaming their imprisonment on petty small time beaurocrats.

The doctors and nurses at the various hospitals in Baghdad are very pissed and disappointed with the American forces. One doctor that was interviewed siad that a US tank drove throught the wall of the hospital, injuring several people and then just left without a word, leaving the place to be looted.

The citizens of Baghdad have been trying to organize a militia to defend the the city against the looters, but they have been disarmed by the US forces and several have been killed.

[joshnolan225 0]

America is at war, i honestly dont understand you people, you voice your opinion saying "no puppet Govt", you protest america liberating Iraq and you blast Bush. Is Bush worse than Hussein? NO i have 2 cousins in Iraq, one of which is an MP and has written to me several times about what he has seen in regards to the Iraqi military against the civilians. They have done a terrific job of reducing the number of civi casualties, now are you gonna belive the man who claims that Americans are no where near baghdad, or a man who has prooven himself as a capable, trust worthy leader. You have no idea of the strains and pressures put on American forces. THEY ARE NOT POLICEMEN!!!!!!!!! they are soldiers and if there are two men standing guard and 200 others thrying to get by the guards who do you think will win. THEY LOVE FREEDOM, if we hadnt gone in, then, then over 2,000 other civilians would have died the first week from Saddams evil regime. I would appreciate it if no one would talk about killing MY PRESIDENT if you dont like him, then thats your right, i have my right to like him, thats America. does anyone know why the iraqis are saying to Americans in Iraq to go away, CAUSE THEY ARE FREE AND WE GAVE IT TO THEM!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,16:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is Bush worse than Hussein?<span id='postcolor'>

No, but that doesn't mean that he is good. Hussein is very bad while Bush is bad. In this war in my view and in the view of many others Bush is the bad guy since he unprovokedly attacked another country. Saddam and his merry men defended their home land.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">or a man who has prooven himself as a capable, trust worthy leader.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL It's a joke right? Where are those WMD that Saddam was so eager to use according to Bush? You tell me now, was Saddam as an clear and present danger as Bush tried to put it. "Trustworthy" LOL. I'm not sure if you are refering to the different unsubstantiated claims or the faked evidence (like the Nigerian uranium report).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have no idea of the strains and pressures put on American forces. THEY ARE NOT POLICEMEN!!!!!!!!! they are soldiers and if there are two men standing guard and 200 others thrying to get by the guards who do you think will win. <span id='postcolor'>

Then the planners and the commanders can be prosecuted for war crimes. The Geneva conventions state very clearly the responsibilyt of the occupying powers. Among them is providing medicines to the hospitals, enforcing law and order, not interfering with civil defense organization etc etc

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I would appreciate it if no one would talk about killing MY PRESIDENT<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry, it's my favourite fantasy and I'm not willing to part with it

[Longinius 1]

"does anyone know why the iraqis are saying to Americans in Iraq to go away, CAUSE THEY ARE FREE AND WE GAVE IT TO THEM!!!!!!!!"

Well, that and the fact that they simply dont like Americans, maybe.

[Aeon 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you dont like him, then thats your right, i have my right to like him, thats America<span id='postcolor'>

that's rather "freedom of thought", this concept does not belong to America

[Guest]

A civilisation torn to pieces - very good article by Robert Fisk on among other things the looting of the museum. It also points out a very important thing and it's that the looters are mostly the previously oppressed Shia muslims taking out their revenge on the Sunni.

[joshnolan225 0]

No but the freedom of thought has been championed by America from its conception. to Denoir, while i respect you and your veiws that last comment about bush being bad and attacking unprovoked, you have got to be fucking kidding me. i lost 7 of my friends on sept 11 and i very well could have been killed too, our class field trip was killed that day and i think that was provocation enough to warrent war. If we hadnt gone to war, then we would have another mass murder on our hands only this time it might have killed 50,000 instead of 4,000. people forget that wmds are not only NBCs but also medium and long range missles, banned by the UN and USED by IRAQ. those chinese silkworm missles shot into Kuwait the first week were banned, te goddamn scuds were also banned and howabout that long range missle that tested positve for a nerve agent, i believe that that falls into the NBC catagory also so WHOS RIGHT? BUSH!!! godbless him

KILLEM ALL

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 13 2003,17:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have no idea of the strains and pressures put on American forces. THEY ARE NOT POLICEMEN!!!!!!!!! they are soldiers and if there are two men standing guard and 200 others thrying to get by the guards who do you think will win. <span id='postcolor'>

Then the planners and the commanders can be prosecuted for war crimes. The Geneva conventions state very clearly the responsibilyt of the occupying powers. Among them is providing medicines to the hospitals, enforcing law and order, not interfering with civil defense organization etc etc<span id='postcolor'>

While I think they could be doing a MUCH better job at this, that obligation comes into effect when combat operations have ceased.  They haven't exactly done that yet.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. The international organization Human Rights Watch is saying the Hussein regime is guilty of crimes against humanity for which they can be tried at the Hague.

[joshnolan225 0]

am i the only one here who is agreeing with Bush?

Go schoeler!!!!!

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i lost 7 of my friends on sept 11 and i very well could have been killed too, our class field trip was killed that day and i think that was provocation enough to warrent war.  If we hadnt gone to war, then we would have another mass murder on our hands only this time it might have killed 50,000 instead of 4,000. people forget that wmds are not only NBCs but also medium and long range missles, banned by the UN and USED by IRAQ. those chinese silkworm missles shot into Kuwait the first week were banned, te goddamn scuds were also banned and howabout that long range missle that tested positve for a nerve agent, i believe that that falls into the NBC catagory also so WHOS RIGHT? BUSH!!! godbless him<span id='postcolor'>

and exactly what ties 9-11(AlQaeda) to Iraq? one of reason set forth by Bush administration is that AQ was getting support from Iraq, which went no where, and after failing that Bush administration got its wish somewhat fulfilled by trying to force UN resolution 1441.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">KILLEM ALL<span id='postcolor'>

you'd be surprised how that rings true also in muslims in ME. except that they mean USA when they say "them"

[Longinius 1]

"While I think they could be doing a MUCH better job at this, that obligation comes into effect when combat operations have ceased. They haven't exactly done that yet."

Several cities have been liberated. There is no more fighting, but plenty of looting.

[joshnolan225 0]

Czech officials and german officials confirmed reports of meeting with iraqi ambassadors and military officials and 3 known Al Qaeda officials in Prauge in May 2001,

good enough for me

Also i say killem all in the sense of it is a popular phrase where i come from and we use it saying were gonna win. i personally in a generic sense am a pasifist, however i feel that war in this situation is a nesecity*sp

[Longinius 1]

"our class field trip was killed that day and i think that was provocation enough to warrent war."

Yeah, your class field trip is reason enough to warrant a war. Uhm, OK. You know I had a class trip cancelled ones to. Does that mean Sweden can attack Denmark?

"people forget that wmds are not only NBCs but also medium and long range missles, banned by the UN and USED by IRAQ."

Well, actually, a weapon has to fall in to the NBC category to be a WMD. Missiles are just means of delivering it, not a WMD in itself. But what does a small thing like that matter in the long run, ey?

"i believe that that falls into the NBC catagory also so WHOS RIGHT? BUSH!!! godbless him"

Bush was right about what?`And yeah, he is going to need gods blessings or he and America is well and truly fubared.

"Czech officials and german officials confirmed reports of meeting with iraqi ambassadors and military officials and 3 known Al Qaeda officials in Prauge in May 2001,

good enough for me"

Yes, lets not check sources or even try and find out what such a meeting was about. Its enough that they met. No, wait, its enough that one of them is listed in the phonebook because then they might have talked on the phone!

[joshnolan225 0]

I MEAN MY CLASS WAS KILLED!!!!!!! LITERALLY 7 OF MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD AND BURIED IN THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!

[joshnolan225 0]

you make no sense i have not a fucking clue what you are talking about

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,19:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I MEAN MY CLASS WAS KILLED!!!!!!! LITERALLY 7 OF MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD AND BURIED IN THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

and what then ? you mean it's all about revenge ?

i've lost friends too , in various circumstances , at first , i felt the need to retaliate , and i retaliated blindly , but with the months , when it happened again , i learnt how to control myself , how to keep all my judgement and how to stay still

what i'm trying to say is that deep into american hearts , there's this retaliation need and i deeply think that some of your politicians are using this along with a few other things to do what they want with the support of the public opinion

retaliation , revenge , isn't a correct reason to wage wars because if you fight to retaliate , you'll always end up doing things you will regret afterward

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,20:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I MEAN MY CLASS WAS KILLED!!!!!!! LITERALLY 7 OF MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD AND BURIED IN THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, goddamn that Saddam for 9/11...uhh

Sorry for your classmates, but "KILLEMALL"?

You´re no better than al-Qaeda.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,19:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I MEAN MY CLASS WAS KILLED!!!!!!! LITERALLY 7 OF MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD AND BURIED IN THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

and they were killed by AQ not Iraq.

the meeting you mentioned and being the evidence is somewhere near saying that any contact is good to establish reasonable cause.

if that is the case, then presence of an Israeli mob in US would show that US is harboring Jewish terrorists, and thus justify muslim population's claim that US is working for Israel?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Czech officials and german officials confirmed reports of meeting with iraqi ambassadors and military officials and 3 known Al Qaeda officials in Prauge in May 2001,<span id='postcolor'>

and what was the content of their meeting? it could be that

AQ: Iraq help us

Iraq: no. we got enough trouble already. can't help.

just meeting and cooperation is different.

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am aware of the artifacts lost.  I am aware of the value of the artifacts.  I know this, and I dispute that these irreplacable artifacts are more valuable than life, without which, thiese artifacts would have no meaning, and further than that, would not exist.

If you still feel I am ignorant on this issue, please explain to0 me in clear terms how this is so, because I am appeaernly ignorant of my own ignorance.<span id='postcolor'>

Allright, your position wasn't very clear from your first post. I'll retract my statement about your igorance - but I still completely disagree with your stance on this issue. I think artifacts like the ones destroyed in Baghdad need to be protected, at the cost in human life if necessary. To give you a purely pragmatic reason - archeological research methods are developing all the time, so in time new information could be derived from them, had these artifacts been preserved. In my opinion, however, their value extands far beyond a potential source of information as they form part of cultural heritage of the whole humankind. BTW, you keep comparing the value of these artifacts to the value of human life - why? From what I gather, it wasn't necessary to sacrifice ANY lives to prevent the looting of the museum...  

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ April 13 2003,20:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you make no sense i have not a fucking clue what you are talking about<span id='postcolor'>

Oh and come back when you´ve learned to read short texts and research a subject down there in 2nd grade.

Maybe you shouldn´t be so quick to hand out death penalties to people you know nothing about.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ppl, please stop insulting each other.