The Iraq Thread

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 11 2003,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"As far as innocent until proven guilty being tossed out the window, thats a crock of shit and you know it!"

I am sure this statement is worth much when Ali, age 50 who just happens to look like general <whatever>, is shot by trigger happy soldiers who had been authorized to kill the guy. Great. Simply great.<span id='postcolor'>

I doubt poor old Ali is going to be surrounded by Fedayeen firing their AK's at the Coalition to prevent his capture, so its more likely he'd be taken alive, identified and released. Nice try though.

[Longinius 1]

"I doubt poor old Ali is going to be surrounded by Fedayeen firing their AK's at the Coalition to prevent his capture, so its more likely he'd be taken alive, identified and released. Nice try though."

What if he is surrounded by five armed friends? Its not like most people in Iraq have problems getting weapons, and with the lootings many are armed.

[Guest]

Latest Fisk Report:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Robert Fisk: Baghdad: the day after

The Independent

Arson, anarchy, fear, hatred, hysteria, looting, revenge, savagery, suspicion and a suicide bombing

11 April 2003

It was the day of the looter. They trashed the German embassy and hurled the ambassador's desk into the yard. I rescued the European Union flag – flung into a puddle of water outside the visa section – as a mob of middle-aged men, women in chadors and screaming children rifled through the consul's office and hurled Mozart records and German history books from an upper window. The Slovakian embassy was broken into a few hours later.

At the headquarters of Unicef, which has been trying to save and improve the lives of millions of Iraqi children since the 1980s, an army of thieves stormed the building, throwing brand new photocopiers on top of each other and sending cascades of UN files on child diseases, pregnancy death rates and nutrition across the floors.

The Americans may think they have "liberated" Baghdad but the tens of thousands of thieves – they came in families and cruised the city in trucks and cars searching for booty – seem to have a different idea what liberation means.

American control of the city is, at best, tenuous – a fact underlined after several marines were killed last night by a suicide bomber close to the square where a statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down on Wednesday, in the most staged photo-opportunity since Iwo Jima.

Throughout the day, American forces had fought gun battles with Saddam loyalists, said to be fighters from other Arab countries. And, for more than four hours, marines were in firefights at the Imam al-Adham mosque in the Aadhamiya district of central Baghdad after rumours, later proved untrue, that Saddam Hussein and senior members of his regime had taken flight there.

As the occupying power, America is responsible for protecting embassies and UN offices in their area of control but, yesterday, its troops were driving past the German embassy even as looters carted desks and chairs out of the front gate.

It is a scandal, a kind of disease, a mass form of kleptomania that American troops are blithely ignoring. At one intersection of the city, I saw US Marine snipers on the rooftops of high-rise building, scanning the streets for possible suicide bombers while a traffic jam of looters – two of them driving stolen double-decker buses crammed with refrigerators – blocked the highway beneath.

Outside the UN offices, a car slowed down beside me and one of the unshaven, sweating men inside told me in Arabic that it wasn't worth visiting because "we've already taken everything". Understandably, the poor and the oppressed took their revenge on the homes of the men of Saddam's regime who have impoverished and destroyed their lives, sometimes quite literally, for more than two decades.

I watched whole families search through the Tigris-bank home of Ibrahim al-Hassan, Saddam's half-brother and a former minister of interior, of a former defence minister, of Saadun Shakr, one of Saddam's closest security advisers, of Ali Hussein Majid – "Chemical" Ali who gassed the Kurds and was killed last week in Basra – and of Abed Moud, Saddam's private secretary. They came with lorries, container trucks, buses and carts pulled by ill-fed donkeys to make off with the contents of these massive villas.

It also provided a glimpse of the shocking taste in furnishings that senior Baath party members obviously aspired to; cheap pink sofas and richly embroidered chairs, plastic drinks trolleys and priceless Iranian carpets so heavy it took three muscular thieves to carry them. Outside the gutted home of one former minister of interior, a fat man was parading in a stolen top hat, a Dickensian figure who tried to direct the traffic jam of looters outside.

On the Saddam bridge over the Tigris, a thief had driven his lorry of stolen goods at such speed he had crashed into the central concrete reservation and still lay dead at the wheel.

But there seemed to be a kind of looter's law. Once a thief had placed his hand on a chair or a chandelier or a door-frame, it belonged to him. I saw no arguments, no fist-fights. The dozens of thieves in the German embassy worked in silence, assisted by an army of small children. Wives pointed out the furnishings they wanted, husbands carried them down the stairs while children were used to unscrew door hinges and – in the UN offices – to remove light fittings. One even stood on the ambassador's desk to take a light bulb from its socket in the ceiling.

On the other side of the Saddam bridge, an even more surreal sight could be observed. A truck loaded down with chairs also had the two white hunting dogs that belonged to Saddam's son Qusay tethered by two white ropes, galloping along beside the vehicle. Across the city, I caught a glimpse of four of Saddam's horses – including the white stallion he had used in some presidential portraits – being loaded on to a trailer. Tariq Aziz's villa was also looted, right down to the books in his library.

Every government ministry in the city has now been denuded of its files, computers, reference books, furnishings and cars. To all this, the Americans have turned a blind eye, indeed stated specifically that they had no intention of preventing the "liberation" of this property. One can hardly be moralistic about the spoils of Saddam's henchmen but how is the government of America's so-called "New Iraq" supposed to operate now that the state's property has been so comprehensively looted? And what is one to make of the scene on the Hillah road yesterday where I found the owner of a grain silo and factory ordering his armed guards to fire on the looters who were trying to steal his lorries. This desperate and armed attempt to preserve the very basis of Baghdad's bread supply was being observed from just 100 metres away by eight soldiers of the US 3rd Infantry Division, who were sitting on their tanks – doing nothing. The UN offices that were looted downtown are 200 metres from a US Marine checkpoint.

And already America's army of "liberation" is beginning to seem an army of occupation. I watched hundreds of Iraqi civilians queuing to cross a motorway bridge at Daura yesterday morning, each man ordered by US soldiers to raise his shirt and lower his trousers – in front of other civilians, including women – to prove they were not suicide bombers.

After a gun battle in the Adamiya area during the morning, an American Marine sniper sitting atop the palace gate wounded three civilians, including a little girl, in a car that failed to halt – then shot and killed a man who had walked on to his balcony to discover the source of the firing. Within minutes, the sniper also shot dead the driver of another car and wounded two more passengers in that vehicle, including a young woman. A crew from Channel 4 Television was present when the killings took place.

Meanwhile, in the suburb of Daura, bodies of Iraqi civilians – many of them killed by US troops in battle earlier in the week – lay rotting in their still-smouldering cars. And yesterday was just Day Two of the "liberation" of Baghdad.

<span id='postcolor'>

[LandShark-AL 0]

Killing POWs is a war crime. Or do you think they

killed them selfs? or maybe we did it to put it off on iraq.

I see the US UK and all the people in Iraq just make this stuff up to make saddam look bad

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Fisk-

"After a gun battle in the Adamiya area during the morning, an American Marine sniper sitting atop the palace gate wounded three civilians, including a little girl, in a car that failed to halt – then shot and killed a man who had walked on to his balcony to discover the source of the firing. Within minutes, the sniper also shot dead the driver of another car and wounded two more passengers in that vehicle, including a young woman. A crew from Channel 4 Television was present when the killings took place."

I can confirm this having seen it on Channel 4 news.

The US really have to get a hold of the situation in Baghdad- theyre shooting anyone who approaches their checkpoints in a vehicle at speed... not right i dont think but somewhat understandable given the suicide bombings.

However theres a massive lack of interpreters/arabic speakers etc so they shout 'STOP' in english at such vehicles(meaning nothing to most in Bagdad) then they are promptly given a warning shot (or not as the case may be) and then filled with lead.

Definatly not the way to win friends.

There MUST be a better way.

The situation in Basra seems to have got somewhat better. Partly due to a British clampdown and partly because the looters homes have all now been filled up with Saddams Urns light fixtures and kitchen sinks. Hopefully we will see things start to calm down in Baghdad. I wouldnt want to be there for the next few weeks though.....

I agree that the crimes by Saddams regime against its own people are a matter primarily for Iraqi people. But if Milosevic can go on trial for Kosovo then Saddam can on trial for his countless well documented crimes.

(andy_aws -Including hiding behind woman and children? )brgnorway-

"Well, we don't know if that actually happend, but even if it did happen you could very well say there are lots of "grey zones" concerning the use of women and children in war."

I guess we dont know if US troops shot that family at the checkpoint then. We only have 'reports' to go on. But there are multiple reports of it and there are multiple reports of Iraqi fighters using civilians in that way.

I dont think to Norway in WW2 is a good comparison and its clear that a lot of Iraqis were NOT willing to fight for their government. I was always skeptical about this 'popular nationalist uprising' against the coalition. Most Iraqi people hate (or hated) Saddam. Thats my opinion. Not 100% but over 50 % of the population certainly. If there is to be a nationalist uprising it will be NOW after the fall of Saddam.

I dont recall massive crowds of collaborators killing the Norwegians who tried to fight the Nazis. 'Collaborators' here are a majority. We can argue about %s but most Iraqis were either ambivalent, hoping the war would end regardless or looking for any way NOT to fight for the Saddam government. Thats the only explaination for what we have seen.

Now after Saddam is gone is another story....

[mr. Duck 0]

Yeah i've seen this too on dutch tv, a marine yelling stop to a car, he tried to wave the car off but it was quite dark there, I wonder if those passenger knew what the marine was trying to do, when they got too close they we're pumped with lead. Turned out that the driver+passengers we're just civilians...

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ April 11 2003,22:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess we dont know if US troops shot that family at the checkpoint then. We only have 'reports' to go on. But there are multiple reports of it and there are multiple reports of Iraqi fighters using civilians in that way.

<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be silly now! The only "reports" about iraqi soldiers hiding behind women and children are presented by US/UK soldiers! No eye-witness reports have been made by independent news sources - and the "embedded" newsagencies are as trustworthy as Saddam himself when they interview a US soldiers claim that this actually happend.

However, most of the fuckups at the roadblocks are filmed by reporters - just like the incident with Palestine Hotel. Not much doubt about that is it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think to Norway in WW2 is a good comparison and its clear that a lot of Iraqis were NOT willing to fight for their government.<span id='postcolor'>

Well then - I don't think you shold make judgements about Norway during WWII because you obviously don't know what you are talking about! Here's a short history about what took place in Norway during the war: Thousands of norwegians were very friendly towards the germans. Thousands of young norwegians joined the SS and fought for Germany (or Norway -in their twisted way) at the east front. Thousands of norwegians got killed in Norway during the war - not all were victims of german personel, but killed by norwegians. If you lived in Norway during the war - and you took part in the resistance  - you would be very cautious about whom you talked to! Have you ever heard the word Quisling?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I was always skeptical about this 'popular nationalist uprising' against the coalition. Most Iraqi people hate (or hated) Saddam. Thats my opinion. Not 100% but over 50 % of the population certainly. If there is to be a nationalist uprising it will be NOW after the fall of Saddam.<span id='postcolor'>

Can't argue against that. I've always claimed that the war will be "won" by the coalition - but the troubles will come after the war. This is not something that will be over within a year or two - but will continue the next 20 + years.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont recall massive crowds of collaborators killing the Norwegians who tried to fight the Nazis. 'Collaborators' here are a majority. We can argue about %s but most Iraqis were either ambivalent, hoping the war would end regardless or looking for any way NOT to fight for the Saddam government. Thats the only explaination for what we have seen.

<span id='postcolor'>

What are you talking about? What's your point?

You are escaping the fact I was trying to prove that during a war that threatens your independence  the rule is that there are no rules! Besides, in the aftermath of the war the government had serious problems about deciding what persons to prosecute. The reason for this was that almost a third of the population had at one time or another been member of the Nazi-party. Don't forget that many thousands of norwegians were convicted as criminals because they made money as collaborateurs during the war. Reality is usually not as black or white as some of you desperately want it to be!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont recall massive crowds of collaborators killing the Norwegians who tried to fight the Nazis.<span id='postcolor'>

No crowds - but it happened every day all over the country.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 11 2003,21:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Killing POWs is a war crime.   Or do you think they

killed them selfs? or maybe we did it to put it off on iraq.

I see the US UK and all the people in Iraq just make this stuff up to make saddam look bad

<span id='postcolor'>

We don't know if this has taken place. Blair's statement was even rejected by himself if you would bother to remember!

[Akira 0]

'The News We Kept To Ourselves'

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 12 2003,00:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">'The News We Kept To Ourselves'<span id='postcolor'>

?

I'm not trying to be ironic - but what's the point with that link?

We all know Saddam's regime is not a kindergarden.

[Major Fubar 0]

I'm all for a true war crimes tribunal after this conflict.

As long as it is an impartial tribunal and incidents by both sides are looked into.

But getting an impartial nation or nations to run this tribunal would be almost impossible. Iraq wouldn't trust any Western nations to run it, and America wouldn't trust half of Europe, any of the middle east, or most of Africa or Asia to run it.

I would suggest Australia, but our PM has his tongue too far up Bush's arse for us to be impartial

[LandShark-AL 0]

I have a lot more inside info than you guys so I know the news

guys are lost on most of whats going on.Brgnorway are you saying than it would be ok if we killed the 10'000 POWs

we have?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 12 2003,05:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have a lot more inside info than you guys so I know the news

guys are lost on most of whats going on.Brgnorway are you saying than it would be ok if we killed the 10'000 POWs

we have?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you on drugs or something?

You know more than me - possibly!

You know more than any other person on this forum - hardly!

Whoever told you that Iraq has killed one single US/UK soldier?

Didn't you read my post? Even Blair publicly corrected his former statements about killings of pow's!

Oh don't tell me - you work undercover for CIA and you've been to Area 52 several times?

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 12 2003,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would suggest Australia, but our PM has his tongue too far up Bush's arse for us to be impartial  <span id='postcolor'>

so we have Croc Dundee on the Tribunal?

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 12 2003,05:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 12 2003,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would suggest Australia, but our PM has his tongue too far up Bush's arse for us to be impartial  <span id='postcolor'>

so we have Croc Dundee on the Tribunal?    <span id='postcolor'>

No, croc Dundee has retired, you'd have to use Steve Irwin, crocodile hunter.  

Seriously, I cringe every time someone like that becomes famous, it's why the whole world thinks we are a bunch of uncultured bush dwelling idiots.  

Anyway, sorry to go offtopic for a moment, but I got this email the other day, and found it very funny (the Aussies here will find it funny, others may find it educational...)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> These questions about Australia were posted on an Australian Tourism

Website and obviously the answers came from a fellow Aussie.

Q: Does it ever get windy in Australia? I have never seen it rain on TV, so how do the plants grow? (UK)

A: We import all plants fully grown and then just sit around

watching them die.

Q: Will I be able to see kangaroos in the street? (USA)

A: Depends how much you've been drinking

Q: I want to walk from Perth to Sydney - can I follow the railroad tracks? (Sweden)

A: Sure, it's only three thousand miles, take lots of water...

Q: Is it safe to run around in the bushes in Australia? (Sweden)

A: So its true what they say about Swedes.

Q: It is imperative that I find the names and addresses of places to contact for a stuffed porpoise. (Italy)

A: Let's not touch this one.

Q: Are there any ATMs (cash machines)in Australia? Can you send me a list of them in Brisbane, Cairns, Townsville and Hervey Bay? (UK)

A: What did your last slave die of?

Q: Can you give me some information about hippo racing in Australia? (USA)

A: A-fri-ca is the big triangle shaped continent south of Europe. Aus-tra-lia is that big island in the middle of the pacific which does not... oh forget it. Sure, the hippo racing is every Tuesday night in Kings Cross. Come naked.

Q: Which direction is North in Australia? (USA)

A: Face south and then turn 90 degrees. Contact us when you get here and we'll send the rest of the directions.

Q: Can I bring cutlery into Australia? (UK)

A: Why? Just use your fingers like we do.

Q: Can you send me the Vienna Boys' Choir schedule? (USA)

A: Aus-tri-a is that quaint little country bordering Ger-man-y, which is...oh forget it. Sure, the Vienna Boys Choir plays every Tuesday night in Kings Cross, straight after the hippo races. Come naked.

Q: Do you have perfume in Australia? (France)

A: No, WE don't stink.

Q: I have developed a new product that is the fountain of youth. Can you tell me where I can sell it in Australia? (USA)

A: Anywhere significant numbers of Americans gather.

Q: Can I wear high heels in Australia? (UK)

A: You are a British politician, right?

Q: Can you tell me the regions in Tasmania where the female population is smaller than the male population? (Italy)

A: Yes, gay nightclubs.

Q: Do you celebrate Christmas in Australia? (France)

A: Only at Christmas.

Q: Are there killer bees in Australia? (Germany)

A: Not yet, but for you, we'll import them.

Q: Are there supermarkets in Sydney and is milk available all year round? (Germany)

A: No, we are a peaceful civilisation of vegan hunter gatherers. Milk is illegal.

Q: Please send a list of all doctors in Australia who can dispense rattlesnake serum. (USA)

A: Rattlesnakes live in A-meri-ca which is where YOU come from. All Australian snakes are perfectly harmless, can be safely handled and make good pets.

Q: I have a question about a famous animal in Australia, but I forget its name. It's a kind of bear and lives in trees. (USA)

A: It's called a Drop Bear. They are so called because they drop out of gum trees and eat the brains of anyone walking underneath them. You can scare them off by spraying yourself with human urine before you go out walking.

Q: I was in Australia in 1969 on R+R, and I want to contact the girl I dated while I was staying in Kings Cross. Can you help? (USA)

A: Yes, and you will still have to pay her by the hour.

Q: Will I be able to speek English most places I go? (USA)

A: Yes, but you'll have to learn it first.<span id='postcolor'>

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 12 2003,05:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh don't tell me - you work undercover for CIA and you've been to Area 52 several times?<span id='postcolor'>

They have an Area 52 also!!!

I still haven't seen Area 51!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 12 2003,05:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 12 2003,05:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh don't tell me - you work undercover for CIA and you've been to Area 52 several times?<span id='postcolor'>

They have an Area 52 also!!!  

I still haven't seen Area 51!

<span id='postcolor'>

it's almost as famous as "route 67" - you got me there hehe!

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 12 2003,05:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 12 2003,05:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 12 2003,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would suggest Australia, but our PM has his tongue too far up Bush's arse for us to be impartial  <span id='postcolor'>

so we have Croc Dundee on the Tribunal?    <span id='postcolor'>

No, croc Dundee has retired, you'd have to use Steve Irwin, crocodile hunter.  

Seriously, I cringe every time someone like that becomes famous, it's why the whole world thinks we are a bunch of uncultured bush dwelling idiots.  <span id='postcolor'>

true. but then again, you guys brought us Mel Gibson and Mad Max.

yes, on serious note, will there be a neutral Tribunal? my answer is not yet. Although we are able to develope technology to deleiver physical matters around most of the globe in less than 24 hours, mental relations with own geographic boundary(a.k.a. culture) is still strong. and we are far from seeing everything in global perspective.

but in distant future, who knows?

edit: LOL FUBAR! nice joke

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 11 2003,23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't be silly now! The only "reports" about iraqi soldiers hiding behind women and children are presented by US/UK soldiers! No eye-witness reports have been made by independent news sources - and the "embedded" newsagencies are as trustworthy as Saddam himself when they interview a US soldiers claim that this actually happend.

However, most of the fuckups at the roadblocks are filmed by reporters - just like the incident with Palestine Hotel. Not much doubt about that is it?<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, excuse me, but you are wrong, I saw footage of women and children being forced across a bridge near An Nasiriyah. They were screaming in terror about being caught in the crossfire. The Coalition troops had to stop firing to save them. You must have missed that bit of "biased" reporting though.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 11 2003,20:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I doubt poor old Ali is going to be surrounded by Fedayeen firing their AK's at the Coalition to prevent his capture, so its more likely he'd be taken alive, identified and released.  Nice try though."

What if he is surrounded by five armed friends? Its not like most people in Iraq have problems getting weapons, and with the lootings many are armed.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, if he's surrounded by five armed friends then its his ass. All's fair in love and war remember. It'd be pretty damn dumb to go cavorting around the Iraqi countryside carrying a weapon or with an armed entourage if you looked like a member of the Iraqi regime. If one were stupid enough to do something like this, then tough shit, he wasn't fit to reproduce anyway.

[Longinius 1]

"I have a lot more inside info than you guys so I know the news guys are lost on most of whats going on.Brgnorway are you saying than it would be ok if we killed the 10'000 POWs

we have?"

There is a difference in a force like the coalition killing 10 000 POW's and a small unit of Iraqi soldiers killing some 10 or so POW's. The main difference is of course that the US has the ability to care for and hold prisoners, while Iraqis probably didn't. Does it make it right? Hell no. But how many people do you think have been executed by western SF and scout forces that were unable to bring along prisoners? They cant very well release them, they cant leave them behind... Only one option left.

"LOL, if he's surrounded by five armed friends then its his ass. All's fair in love and war remember. It'd be pretty damn dumb to go cavorting around the Iraqi countryside carrying a weapon or with an armed entourage if you looked like a member of the Iraqi regime. If one were stupid enough to do something like this, then tough shit, he wasn't fit to reproduce anyway. "

Yeah, and I am sure that if you looked like, lets say Saddam, and lived in Iraq, you wouldnt carry a gun right now because you think if anyone took you for Saddam you'd get....flowers? Looking like one of those madmen is even more reason to be armed during a riot.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ April 10 2003,23:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fisk-

"After a gun battle in the Adamiya area during the morning, an American Marine sniper sitting atop the palace gate wounded three civilians, including a little girl, in a car that failed to halt – then shot and killed a man who had walked on to his balcony to discover the source of the firing. Within minutes, the sniper also shot dead the driver of another car and wounded two more passengers in that vehicle, including a young woman. A crew from Channel 4 Television was present when the killings took place."

I can confirm this having seen it on Channel 4 news.

The US really have to get a hold of the situation in Baghdad- theyre shooting anyone who approaches their checkpoints in a vehicle at speed... not right i dont think but somewhat understandable given the suicide bombings.

However theres a massive lack of interpreters/arabic speakers etc so they shout 'STOP' in english at such vehicles(meaning nothing to most in Bagdad) then they are promptly given a warning shot (or not as the case may be) and then filled with lead.

Definatly not the way to win friends.

There MUST be a better way.

The situation in Basra seems to have got somewhat better. Partly due to a British clampdown and partly because the looters homes have all now been filled up with Saddams Urns light fixtures and kitchen sinks. Hopefully we will see things start to calm down in Baghdad. I wouldnt want to be there for the next few weeks though.....

I agree that the crimes by Saddams regime against its own people are a matter primarily for Iraqi people. But if Milosevic can go on trial for Kosovo then Saddam can on trial for his countless well documented crimes.<span id='postcolor'>

We all have to admit that the US soldiers are still too triggerhappy, yesterday i saw a kid on tv who was shot after an Iraqi soldier fired at some US troops. The troops freaked out and basically started shooting at everyone nearby, the kid on TV and his friends were hit by them together with some other ppl.

These kinda stuff certainly isn't gonna make the US very popular, and sad enough, it still happens too much...

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I think Schoeler covered most of it but i will make it clear once again. 1940s Norway is not Iraq and 1940s Germany is not America. I do not accept it as a reasonable comparison. The point i was trying to get across about 'collaborators' is that reactions have been different because numbers, circumstances and motivations of 'collaborators' are different.

Longinius- "The main difference is of course that the US has the ability to care for and hold prisoners, while Iraqis probably didn't"

Oh yes. Feeding 10 or so POWs is a hell of a drain of government that happily and needlessly underfeeds its own people. You have claimed that its one rule for America and one rule for the rest and have whined about how unfair that is. Well here you seem to be saying its one rule for poor Saddams regime and another rule for the rest.Unfair? Well i guess old Saddam needs a break eh?

"how many people do you think have been executed by western SF and scout forces that were unable to bring along prisoners? They cant very well release them, they cant leave them behind... Only one option left"

I have no idea. And nor do you ,But we can play the pointless speculation game if you wish it.

How many people have had their tongues cut out in Iraq? or their fingernails pulled? or their family members raped, executed or gased? How many have had their lives and dreams for the future totally ruined by their own government? How many children have been raped or killed in front of their families by the state?

But hey, We know Saddams Iraq wasnt a kindergarten so we dont need to hear these facts do we? They are unimportant, they dont matter at all. The ethnic cleansing of the kurds and the cultural holocaust of the marsh arabs, the wholesale slaughter of families distantly related to dissidents.

All of these things are irrelevant. What matter are reports of US troops screwing up, killing journalists and commiting acts of friendly fire. Shady oil deals and how doggon crazy and out of control those Americans are. Those are the important (non US propaganda) things.

Iraqi atrocities? Hey its a different culture, we shouldnt judge. Im sure those torturers had the Iraqi peoples best interests at heart.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ April 12 2003,14:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraqi atrocities? Hey its a different culture, we shouldnt judge. Im sure those torturers had the Iraqi peoples best interests at heart.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll try typing more slowly, perhaps then you'll understand.  Perhaps my English is so bad that it's impossible to understand what I am saying.

The atrocities that the Iraqi government committed before this war are not valid as war crimes. USA does not have jurisdiction over it. Not even the ICC has jurisdiction over it since they were committed prior to 1991 (Hague tribunal foundation).

I'll type it once again, just to be safe that you get it:

The atrocities that the Iraqi government committed before this war are not valid as war crimes. USA does not have jurisdiction over it. Not even the ICC has jurisdiction over it since they were committed prior to 1991 (Hague tribunal foundation).

[Longinius 1]

"Oh yes. Feeding 10 or so POWs is a hell of a drain of government that happily and needlessly underfeeds its own people."

You are drawing the conclusion that the Iraqi units that caught the prisoners in question had the opportunity to bring them to a POW camp. I am simply saying that maybe they hadnt.

A group of Iraqi soldiers catch some Americans. They have no where to put them, no cells, no camps, cant reach their main body of troops to hand over the prisoners. So they shoot them. Not right, but logical. And the west has done the same.

"You have claimed that its one rule for America and one rule for the rest and have whined about how unfair that is. Well here you seem to be saying its one rule for poor Saddams regime and another rule for the rest.Unfair? Well i guess old Saddam needs a break eh?"

No, quite the other way around. I am simply saying that there is an explenation to what happened, and it has been occuring on "our" side as well. We have seen the Iraqis take prisoners and not execute them, and we have seen American soldiers in the field who seemed to have been executed. Figure it out yourself if my explenation doesnt sound credible.

"I have no idea. And nor do you ,But we can play the pointless speculation game if you wish it."

I know it has happened to atleast 1 and since it appeared to be SOP for the unit who did it, I assume it has happened to more people as well. I also assume that other units of similar type have the same way to operate.

"How many people have had their tongues cut out in Iraq? or their fingernails pulled? or their family members raped, executed or gased? How many have had their lives and dreams for the future totally ruined by their own government? How many children have been raped or killed in front of their families by the state?"

Too many?

"But hey, We know Saddams Iraq wasnt a kindergarten so we dont need to hear these facts do we? They are unimportant, they dont matter at all. The ethnic cleansing of the kurds and the cultural holocaust of the marsh arabs, the wholesale slaughter of families distantly related to dissidents."

Yeah, we dont need you to tell it because we all ready know. What point is there in discussing things we all know and agree on? Its like you pointing at a brick, saying "Thats a brick!" and me starting a discussion over it "Yeah, its a brick. Bricks are interesting. lets debate this. We can talk about plenty. Like....Like.....ehhhrr..."

"All of these things are irrelevant. What matter are reports of US troops screwing up, killing journalists and commiting acts of friendly fire. Shady oil deals and how doggon crazy and out of control those Americans are. Those are the important (non US propaganda) things."

Yes, these things matter because...

1. They are often denied.

2. People refuse to accept that its happening.

3. The coalition is supposed to be the good guys. If they claim to be good guys, they should act accordingly. When they dont, they should get punished.

"Iraqi atrocities? Hey its a different culture, we shouldnt judge. Im sure those torturers had the Iraqi peoples best interests at heart."

They will be judged by their own people. That means its our duty to judge ours for their mistakes. Or do you disagree?