The Iraq Thread

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ Mar. 31 2003,19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">France is already involved in this situation - through it's strong anti-war stance, and it's position within the UN. You don't necessarily need to be part of the invading Coalition to be part of the situation - you could just be on the other side of the fence.

While it's not all together pointless (ie. it has some relevance), arguing about various countries economic interests in this war won't really lead anywhere. You could argue that France, Russia, China and perhaps Germany oppose the war because of the considerable business deals they have with Iraq and other middle-eastern nations, but you can also argue that every country in the Coalition has vested interests in seeing it go ahead - the US with oil and rebuilding contracts, other countries pressing to joining the EU or get US foreign aid, Australia pushing for a free-trade agreement etc.

OxPecker is right - there is a huge schism between Western and Arab views on the war and terrorism. For instance, the Arab world links most things (like this war) back to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while we see them as stand-alone events of no relation. Until we can understand their point of view, and they can empathise with ours, the extremists will keep coming.

What I'm really starting to get tired of though is the typical immature arguments the general public (on both sides) is basing their opinions on. Believing Iraq and al-Qaeda are the same entity, all this France-bashing etc.

I just wish the public would realise that this situation is far more complex, with far more history than they realise. Any well thought-out, rational argument from anyside can't be summarised in one catch-phrase or banner slogan.<span id='postcolor'>

Well said and I agree.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ April 01 2003,04:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there is a huge schism between Western and Arab views on the war and terrorism. For instance, the Arab world links most things (like this war) back to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while we see them as stand-alone events of no relation. Until we can understand their point of view, and they can empathise with ours, the extremists will keep coming.

<span id='postcolor'>

This is one of the most important points ever made in this thread! You should study social anthropology

One could possibly say that the identity of the middle eastern arab world is totally different from ours (obviously) , but the fact is that we have learned nothing from the post-colonial times. This is partly due to ignorance but lately more importantly due to ideology and our own public audience. The 911 events tend to blur the picture - or perhaps the will to understand - further. We chose to have another enemy after the soviet union disappeared and the "threat" of the "irrational" muslim societies fit our agenda very well which leads to this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">summarised in one catch-phrase or banner slogan.<span id='postcolor'>

[Guest]

You have to hand it to the BBC, such splendid back-stabbing reporting:

Texans fly the flag for war

Especially note this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Somewhere between two and three thousand gathered, waving the Stars and Stripes, and holding up banners praising Bush and the troops and lambasting the French.

'Rummy can handle anything'

And what of the alleged bust-up between Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the nation's finest military brains? No-one was having any of that:

"Rummy can handle anything they throw at him. I love him", said a lady dressed as the Statue of Liberty. "He tells the truth. He tells it like it is and he will not put up with the idiot questions he has to answer from the media. He tells it how it needs to be."

<span id='postcolor'>

Beautiful, I must say. One of those pro-war demonstrators mentioned would certainly not see the underlying satire and that this BBC report is aimed at making fun of them...

[DarkLight 0]

Women and children shot by US soldiers

I also just heared on the news that some other civilians were shot cuz American soldiers thought these men had bombs on them while this wasn't true.

Looks like the US soldiers are getting a bit too triggerhappy...

[Badgerboy 0]

It's what we do best Denoir, rip the piss without anyone realising. Its most satisfying.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 01 2003,13:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Women and children shot by US soldiers

I also just heared on the news that some other civilians were shot cuz American soldiers thought these men had bombs on them while this wasn't true.

Looks like the US soldiers are getting a bit too triggerhappy...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I heard some stupid cow of a news presenter (CNN or Fox News) shooting her mouth off "But they were just following procedure and did everything right..."

Wrong! Early reports suggest the guys at the checkpoint were too slow in firing a warning shot.

And another interesting piece of propganda and "supporting the nation" gone mad...

The movie poster for "What a girl wants" has been changed, because Amanda Bynes is giving the peace sign in the original poster. Talk about overreacting! How could anyone think this poster is an anti-war statement:

Well, it's not the governent making them change it, the stupid movie promoters are doing it of their own accord. Talk about paranoia.

[Badgerboy 0]

What are they planning to swap it with? Saddam's severed head?

Jeebus, you crazy Americans!

[Mr. Snrub 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 01 2003,16:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You should study social anthropology <span id='postcolor'>

I do sort of well, Political Science/History

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 01 2003,17:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, I heard some stupid cow of a news presenter (CNN or Fox News) shooting her mouth off "But they were just following procedure and did everything right..."

Wrong! Early reports suggest the guys at the checkpoint were too slow in firing a warning shot.<span id='postcolor'>

Does that mean the soldier on duty had enough training to get it right?

Did something change 2 days ago, since a suicide bomber killed 4 troops?

Does anyone in the coalition really have the training yet to deal with these situations? I doubt it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And another interesting piece of propganda and "supporting the nation" gone mad...

The movie poster for "What a girl wants" has been changed, because Amanda Bynes is giving the peace sign in the original poster. Talk about overreacting! How could anyone think this poster is an anti-war statement:

Well, it's not the governent making them change it, the stupid movie promoters are doing it of their own accord. Talk about paranoia.<span id='postcolor'>

Talk about patriotism and supporting your fellow countrymen at war by not potentially insulting them.

[PitViper 0]

warning shots? What kind of military force teaches "warning shots"? None that I know of.

[PitViper 0]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080889/

Iraq openly supporting terrorism.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 01 2003,16:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">warning shots?  What kind of military force teaches "warning shots"?  None that I know of.<span id='postcolor'>

It's basic guard routine. Or were you sick the day they taught that?

1) Call for identification

2) Repeat ID request and add a threat of force

3) Fire a warning shot

4) Fire a real shot

[Ludovico Technique 0]

Personally I'm pretty disgusted by the whole business of the US marines shooting civilians, but I understand how they could make that mistake. The situation in Iraq is without a doubt the most uncomfortable that an army can find itself in, namely occupying a country riddled with hostile elements while trying to gain the trust of the people at large. Mistakes are going to be made, particularly with troops who have no experience of this sort of work.

With a bit of luck though a few more days of actual combat will take the trigger happiness out of the US soldiers a bit.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 01 2003,17:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 01 2003,16:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">warning shots?  What kind of military force teaches "warning shots"?  None that I know of.<span id='postcolor'>

It's basic guard routine. Or were you sick the day they taught that?<span id='postcolor'>

From local experience, the routines at roadblocks, checkpoints and at makeshift camps concerning car bombs and suicide bombers are not the same as that at established bases with a different perimeter of roads, barriers and fences.

It's not basic, IMO. It's also not something basic in the psyche of coalition soldiers.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ludovico Technique @ April 01 2003,17:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally I'm pretty disgusted by the whole business of the US marines shooting civilians, but I understand how they could make that mistake.<span id='postcolor'>

Then you should express your disgust towards the Iraqis for making everyone of their own people suspicious of being the next bomb laden martyr.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 01 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ludovico Technique @ April 01 2003,17:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally I'm pretty disgusted by the whole business of the US marines shooting civilians, but I understand how they could make that mistake.<span id='postcolor'>

Then you should express your disgust towards the Iraqis for making everyone of their own people suspicious of being the next bomb laden martyr.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so now it's the Iraqi's fault that US troops kill civilians.

How low can you sink Avon? Really how low?

Are you willing to extend it to palestinian suicide bombers? Saying that it's the only thing they can do in their situation. That it's all actually Israel's fault that Israeli civilians die?

[Ludovico Technique 0]

The bottom line as far as Iraqi tactics goes is that the supporters of Saddam's regime are throwing everything they can at the coalition forces. To have expected anything less would be utter foolishness.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 01 2003,10:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 01 2003,16:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">warning shots?  What kind of military force teaches "warning shots"?  None that I know of.<span id='postcolor'>

It's basic guard routine. Or were you sick the day they taught that?

1) Call for identification

2) Repeat ID request and add a threat of force

3) Fire a warning shot

4) Fire a real shot<span id='postcolor'>

I have never ever been instructed to fire warning shots. We give verbal warnings. The only time we ever fire our weapons is as a last resort - to kill.

I don't understand the commotion. The van RAN the checkpoint. What else do you do? More often than not, it will be packed with explosives. It's force protection. How do you avoid another tragedy like this? Tell Iraqi civilians not to run military checkpoints! I suppose Denoir the great military leader would tell his troops not to be alerted by any vehicles speeding toward his troops. LOL

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 01 2003,17:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have never ever been instructed to fire warning shots.  We give verbal warnings.  The only time we ever fire our weapons is as a last resort - to kill.<span id='postcolor'>

Wow, well that sure explains the number of FF incidents that the US military is responsible for. Are you sure that you issue a verbal warning? Or do you just shoot first and do the talking later?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't understand the commotion. The van RAN the checkpoint. What else do you do? <span id='postcolor'>

It was destroyed 250 m away from the checkpoint, so it certainly did not force it.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 01 2003,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, so now it's the Iraqi's fault that US troops kill civilians.

How low can you sink Avon? Really how low?

Are you willing to extend it to palestinian suicide bombers? Saying that it's the only thing they can do in their situation. That it's all actually Israel's fault that Israeli civilians die?<span id='postcolor'>

I'd like to put you at the Erez Checkpoint for a few days. You would either learn fast or you wouldn't be around any longer to learn anything else.

The US is responsible to assess the situation and avoid as many mistakes as have happened in recent days for the future. However, one must be naive to think that they're going to get these routines down pat in a matter of days, let alone when they're in the midst of a war.

Regretably, "shoot first and ask questions later" is a rule that legotimately applies to wars.

BTW, I would not say the same thing, for example, about Japanese kamikazi suicide pilots in WWII. They committed their acts in uniform and in clearly marked planes. The Iraqis, on the other hand, are willing to dress as civilians and drive civilian cars to take out their enemy.

The results are not surprising.

[Guest]

You are forgetting that I've been in a combat zone. I've been shot at by snipers dressed in civilian clothing. Did that mean that I blasted every civilian in every window and on every rooftop that I saw? No. Measured response. You keep an eye out but you do not start shooting civilians just because you suspect there might be a danger.

[Die Alive 0]

Do you only shoot at a van after it explodes at a check point, becasuse anything before that time, it's not any risk to anybody?

Also, was it a woman driver or a man driving? Didn't see the latest on the shooting, not sure.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Medics gave the group 10 body bags, the newspaper reported, and U.S. officials offered an unspecified amount of money to compensate them. <span id='postcolor'>

That's so nice of the US officials.

-=Die Alive=-

[vade_101 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From local experience, the routines at roadblocks, checkpoints and at makeshift camps concerning car bombs and suicide bombers are not the same as that at established bases with a different perimeter of roads, barriers and fences.

It's not basic, IMO. It's also not something basic in the psyche of coalition soldiers. <span id='postcolor'>

While not exactly an identical situation, the British soldiers will have quite substantial experience of these types of operation (operating vehicle check points and the like) from deployments in Northern Ireland (and the Royal Marines and Paras have both operated in areas that could be descibed as openly hostile to the British Army, Armagh being the post obvious). and while suicide bombers weren't something they had to contend with there i'd imagine many of the same procedures etc. are aplicable. It seems that these skills are going to be more and more valuble as the campaign continues.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ April 01 2003,19:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, was it a woman driver or a man driving? Didn't see the latest on the shooting, not sure.<span id='postcolor'>

Local experience shows that that should make no difference on the alertness of the soldier.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 01 2003,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 01 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ludovico Technique @ April 01 2003,17:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally I'm pretty disgusted by the whole business of the US marines shooting civilians, but I understand how they could make that mistake.<span id='postcolor'>

Then you should express your disgust towards the Iraqis for making everyone of their own people suspicious of being the next bomb laden martyr.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so now it's the Iraqi's fault that US troops kill civilians.

How low can you sink Avon? Really how low?

Are you willing to extend it to palestinian suicide bombers? Saying that it's the only thing they can do in their situation. That it's all actually Israel's fault that Israeli civilians die?<span id='postcolor'>

Equating the American actions with the Palestinian Suicide Bombings doesn't make much sense to me, personally.

The Palestinian Suicide Bombings are much closer to Iraq's tactics, nonuniformed combatants attacking (in Iraq's case, ad 'in' or 'near' before the next statement) civilian targets, and thus endangering them.

If the Iraqis make attacks dressed as civilians, and use civilians as spotters for RPGs, then they are just as responsible for civilian casualties as the Americans who pull the trigger; but in many cases will at least have th justification of self-defence (I'm sure someone else will argue that the Iraqis are fighting entirely for self-defence, but IMO, that's a very different situation).