The Iraq Thread

[Antichrist 0]

Don't get me wrong! I want somebody to start WW3 cause it's been boring for last couple of months, and by the looks of it US is on their way, but I have to pass as a decent human being and not suppose to talk about that out loud!

[Mister 5 0]

...And that has what to do with what exactly? Come on, are you going to continue spouting your own special brand of rhetoric or are you going to present a decent discussion?

[Antichrist 0]

Didn't I say before that I won't even bother?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ Feb. 09 2003,06:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you need proof just look at the Benjamin Franklin thread in this forum. If you fail to notice something that's right in front of your eyes why should I even bother arguing with u?  <span id='postcolor'>

The Patriot Act II is not so disturbing in the actual sense of what it proposes, but rather the precedents and potential abuses that could arise from the use of the PA II for less than pure & noble causes. Yes, I'm very worried about it, but to say that the US has regressed to the point of being comparable to one of the most oppressive regimes of the century- well that's just stupid. I can still criticize the government, I have all my essential liberties (don't know for how long, but currently I'm set), and I don't have to stand in a government sponsored breadline to get my state-issued rations that will allow me to better fulfill my part in creating a more perfect Marxist/Bushist (hehe, I just made a funny) paradise.

[Mister 5 0]

You asked

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you fail to notice something that's right in front of your eyes why should I even bother arguing with u?<span id='postcolor'>

Now, I've looked around and the only real sources of possible oppression in my country are PA part 1 and and in the near future PA part 2. Despite their inflictions against freedom, they pale in comparison to things done by the USSR and the current regime in Iraq, and most of all, they don't make the your following statement true.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USA now is more like USSR in 1960s, it is an oppresive dictatorship and Bush is even more crazy than Saddam.<span id='postcolor'>

If you exit the argument now, you will have failed to prove or even effectively demonstrate your point, if indeed you really have one. If that's what you want, go ahead and leave.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Blindly defending some idea which is not even yours is a good example of a weak mind <span id='postcolor'>

You know I can say the same thing about you. You're only repeating what Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, the French, Germans, and Russians are saying.

Osama Bin Laden - This was is about religion!

Saddam Hussein - I'm not a threat.

France/Germany/Russia - Just wait for us to get our oil.

[HellToupee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Feb. 09 2003,16:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SGTKOPP @ Feb. 09 2003,04:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bomb them into the ground Bagdad is a stink hole anyway <span id='postcolor'>

Actually it was the center of Muslim Power and Dominance in the 17th Century and has many historic monuments and architecturally significant buildings. Anyhow, I guess it's still a stinkhole to an ignorant schmuck like you, especially if you can't even spell Baghdad right, you don't even deserve a reply.<span id='postcolor'>

it was a very rich and powerful place i belive.

[Guest]

Baghdad is a beautiful modern city. A friend of mine spent a year there after GW1. He said that the only thing that makes Baghdad different from a western metropolis are the big portraits of Saddam that are all over the place.

Interesting followup to the Powell evidence

[ran 0]

Soldiers line up to bank sperm

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 09 2003,06:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Bush doesn't torture his own citizens.<span id='postcolor'>

FS Pilot, do you know what the US does to get info out of uncooperative prisoners at Guantanamo Bay?  They send them to one of their allies where they still use torture, such as Egypt or Turkey.  And this goes for American prisoners too.

Israel has tortured many times more prisoners than Iraq.  Throughout the 70s, Iran's secret police were gouging the eyes out of its captives under the direct guidance of the CIA.  The director of the CIA later became president of the USA and so did his son.

America has been a direct accessory to torture for decades.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Feb. 09 2003,12:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Soldiers line up to bank sperm<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Soldiers inside the catchment area of an NHS fertility clinic can leave a sperm sample for free.<span id='postcolor'>

sounds pretty gross

[Guest]

Belgium is going to veto the NATO decision to reinforce Turkish military bases. (Article (in Swedish))

The perhaps most interesting thing in the article is a quote from Louis Michel, the Belgian minister of foreigin affairs (= secretary of state in American terms):

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-They didn't get bin Laden so now they must find an enemy that they can beat. I think it is about power, and very likely about oil and the humiliation that they were subjected to.

<span id='postcolor'>

These are unbelievably harsh words coming from a politician/diplomat. The situation must be exremely bad when diplomats start using such agressive language.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 09 2003,15:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These are unbelievably harsh words coming from a politician/diplomat.<span id='postcolor'>

They're either harsh or stupid. I'm keeping my opinion to myself.

[Bernadotte 0]

Franco-German plan aimed at averting war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The plan reportedly calls for the tripling of UN weapons inspectors in Iraq, banning Iraqi flights anywhere over the country and deploying UN peacekeepers.

German Defence Minister Peter Struck said the proposal would be presented to the United Nations Security Council on Friday - the same day the chief UN weapons inspectors present their second critical report on Iraqi co-operation.

...

News of the initiative has been greeted with anger by American officials, who said Washington had not been consulted.<span id='postcolor'>

lol...

German/French/Russian soldiers may soon be staring across the Iraqi border at US/UK forces.

[Bernadotte 0]

Looking down the road, if this new initiative passes and Iraq becomes a UN peacekeeping mandate etc. without any US/UK invasion then Bush/Blair can probably kiss their re-election bids goodbye, considering all the money spent so far.  This is why the US/UK would probably veto any SC resolution for such a plan.  However, undertaking such a plan without a UN resolution would not be illegal.

Finally things are getting very interesting.

[Guest]

I get the feeling that the situation is getting out of hand. USA has decided for war, no matter what. Europe seems to be determined to block that no matter what. I'm afraid there will be long term consequences of this especially if the war in Iraq doesn't go very well. You don't need to be a genious to see who Bush is going to assign blame to.

At the same times the anti US sentiment in Europe is growing to absurd levels. A Swedish newspaper, Dagens Nyheter made an opinion poll with the question:

"Would you consider fighting for Saddam against the USA alliance".

A disturbing 13% said yes. Over 5000 people participated in the poll so it is statistically significant.

In the same article where the poll was presented they said that tens of thousands Russians have applied for Iraqi visa to fight on Saddams side.

You can imagine how pissed off people must be when they take such an absurd position. These are not some extreme pacifist, but regular people.

[Pukko 0]

WOW! At last some real positive vibrations in the international community!

The fact that god old Belgium dares to stick out is positive in it self (that also the smaller nations of "the old Europe" (Rumsfeldts 'insult' the other week) dares to speak its mind).

But the Franco/German proposal of deploying UN peace keepers and trippling inspectors is awesomely wonderful to hear! At last a counter proposal to an invasion.

And no, if France and Russia do it partly because of their oildeals its nowhere close to as bad as invading to get some oil (and in the long run ruin so much more).

And of course there will be long term consequences no matter what happens now, but a bad relations between Europe and USA is far better than a potential WW3 or a long lasting 'global Israel/Palestine conflict'.

[theavonlady 2]

Take a look at the top assasination headlines at Debka.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Feb. 09 2003,16:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Take a look at the top assasination headlines at Debka.<span id='postcolor'>

heh , nothing surpirising , it's getting hot in here

my advice : Avon move , you and your children away from israel , this gulf war might be of larger scale than the first one

-edit- take you comp and back the FAQ files up too

[Badgerboy 0]

Blair did mention that in order for UK troops to be commited to battle, Parliment would have to vote on the proposal.

Looking at the number of outraged MP's, UK troops might not be used after all.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Feb. 09 2003,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">my advice : Avon move , you and your children away from israel , this gulf war might be of larger scale than the first one<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but not on this side of the Euphraties.

Besides, my husband already bought plastic window sheeting and masking tape for our sealed room(s).

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides, my husband already bought plastic window sheeting and masking tape for our sealed room(s). <span id='postcolor'>

Not to sound pessimistic, how do you factor oxygen into that solution?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Feb. 09 2003,17:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Feb. 09 2003,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">my advice : Avon move , you and your children away from israel , this gulf war might be of larger scale than the first one<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but not on this side of the Euphraties.

Besides, my husband already bought plastic window sheeting and masking tape for our sealed room(s).    <span id='postcolor'>

matter of preparation .... but you israelis are kinda accustomed to this kind of situation ...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 09 2003,17:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Blair did mention that in order for UK troops to be commited to battle, Parliment would have to vote on the proposal.

Looking at the number of outraged MP's, UK troops might not be used after all.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm, that would probably change things quite a bit for USA. I'm not sure they would be able to handle this without British support.

Do you know when the proposal will be presented to Parliament?

[Balschoiw 0]

I think the french / german initiative is very good.

The inspectors number would be risen to 2000 and 25 000 to 30 000 UN soldiers would "accompany" them on their tours and destroy any WMD related material and weapons.

By now we only have a major problem: The germans and french can´t set up a contingent of 30 000 troops at the moment. Mediterran and Afghanistan contingents of german troops are large in numbers.

Therefore other nations will have to participate in that pool. For sure not the US. They exclude themselves from a UN mission in Iraq. I think a solution for this can be found. And I hope the plan will be taken seriouse as it is the only good political suggestion I have heard for months.

I oppose the US war plans. No secret. First thing if a UN mission in Iraq is planned is me volunteering for it. This is what I think peacekeeping should look like. Not bombs for freedom, but controlled guidance into freedom.

That´s what the german troops do in Afghanistan where a civil war is uprising at the moment. That is what german troops do in former Jugoslavia. That´s what german troops do in Cambodia, Kuwait, Turkey and other countries that need help and assistance.