The Iraq Thread

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 02 2003,21:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 02 2003,13:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I bet Saddam told them to say that or else! <span id='postcolor'>

How much?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no! I see you're on a winning streak!

I can't believe you took my comment seriously.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 02 2003,19:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 02 2003,19:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They reported that every family they met does not want an attack to take place. <span id='postcolor'>

My my, what a surprise

-Would you like us to drop some bombs on you?

-Umm.. no thanks.<span id='postcolor'>

I shall bow down to Denoir's sarcasm. I couldn't have said it better.

I can't think of anyone when asked "Would you like *INSERT COUNTRY* to attack your country?" who would say "Sure! Why the hell not!"

[Akira 0]

Arab Leaders May Ask Saddam to Step Down

That would really simplify things. Get rid of Saddam, the US would have NO reason to go into Iraq, people would breath easy, the discussion would become moot, and we could go back to discussing other "big bad evil" things the US does.

[FallenPaladin 0]

No offense to any americans, only to President Bush`s foreign policy  

If I was Saddam Hussein (I`m not! ), I`d go into exile. So I would spare my people a war. Then I`d start laughing until I fall down dead, because Mr. Bush would get a hell of problems to attack iraq, because he would have to invent a new reason to attack. Wonder what he would come up with, because he has only two years left, before the new elections take place! No oil, what a pity...  

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 01 2003,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Dec. 15 2002,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This thread is getting pretty warm, i bet 5$ that it'll be closed before 2003...<span id='postcolor'>

I am waiting for the money order.  Did you get my address?  

Watched on TV today some peace activists returning from Iraq.  They reported that every family they met does not want an attack to take place.  <span id='postcolor'>

Damn i was hoping you forgot about that!!!!!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 01 2003,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Watched on TV today some peace activists returning from Iraq.  They reported that every family they met does not want an attack to take place.  <span id='postcolor'>

This is what i've been saying all the damn time, nobody wants Bush to attack Iraq, they all like Saddam more than they'll ever like Bush.

Everyone calls me a lunatic when i say this, but again, this confirms what i've always said...

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 03 2003,18:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 01 2003,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Watched on TV today some peace activists returning from Iraq.  They reported that every family they met does not want an attack to take place.  <span id='postcolor'>

This is what i've been saying all the damn time, nobody wants Bush to attack Iraq, they all like Saddam more than they'll ever like Bush.

Everyone calls me a lunatic when i say this, but again, this confirms what i've always said...<span id='postcolor'>

Not speaking in defense of Mr Bush, but if one is urged to take something with a grain of salt... I would take anything said by Joe Average in Iraq with about a kilogram of salt.

People there dont exactly have the freedom to speak their mind like they do here. And while I can honestly believe they dont want to see a war, I cant believe they are that fond of Saddam.

[Harnu 0]

How old is Saddam anyway. He looks like he's gonna croak soon anyway lol.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Jan. 02 2003,20:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 03 2003,18:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 01 2003,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Watched on TV today some peace activists returning from Iraq. They reported that every family they met does not want an attack to take place. <span id='postcolor'>

This is what i've been saying all the damn time, nobody wants Bush to attack Iraq, they all like Saddam more than they'll ever like Bush.

Everyone calls me a lunatic when i say this, but again, this confirms what i've always said...<span id='postcolor'>

Not speaking in defense of Mr Bush, but if one is urged to take something with a grain of salt... I would take anything said by Joe Average in Iraq with about a kilogram of salt.

People there dont exactly have the freedom to speak their mind like they do here. And while I can honestly believe they dont want to see a war, I cant believe they are that fond of Saddam.<span id='postcolor'>

I never said that they are fond of Saddam... I said that they like him more than they like Bush, the reasons are obvious, i guess.

A belgian woman who lives in New York went to Iraq a while ago, she also went to Washington to talk to the people that live near the White House (the poor ones).

Now you gotta understand that this lady is very respected here, the channel that showed her movie is very respected too, this isn't a channel that only tells sensational stuff. They don't pick sides, they ask politicians and other people to come over and debate about upcoming wars, problems in this world, etc. In contrast to a lot of other channels, this channel can be trusted. And please don't start bullshitting that they want me to believe that they are trustable. If you do think that, i advize you to go to a doctor and tell him you're paranoid...

It was that Belgian lady that said that the situation in Iraq is not good at this moment, there are a lot of poor people and stuff like that.

BUT, she also said that an attack would only make things worse, simply because the hatred against America is very big there. They won't just accept it if the US invades them, they won't just sit on their asses and wait. Even if the action by the US is gonna be very good for them, they won't like it and they won't accept it.

Nearby countries might react the same way, they might get rather pissed off.

Some videos clearly prove what she was talking about.

Lots of people don't realize what's happening here, they think: The attack will help the Iraqi people so they gotta love the invasion.

WRONG!

Imagine that Saddam would invade the US to blow up all the cars, this would help nature and so our world a lot. I know it's a stupid example but just try to imagine it.

How would you feel? You'd be pretty pissed off, even while you know that our world will get a lot better without all those cars...

Don't take this example too serious, it's just an example to show how it might feel.

All of you act as if Iraq hates Saddam more than the Western world... To them, the Western world is the devil, and Saddam is prepared to protect them against the devil...

Here in Belgium a lot of very serious documentaries are being showed, a while ago, there was a very good documentary about why the Iraqi ppl don't want an attack, i seriously regret that i couldn't watch it... They might show it again, if they do, i'll be happy to post the conclusions.

Why do so many people believe that the reason why the Europeans don't like a war is because all the Europeans like Saddam and hate Bush?

I must admit that a lot more than 50% of Belgium believes Bush's a dangerous man but still, Saddam is a lot less respected here.

So why do you think that there are so many intelligent people, like politicians and people like that, that do not support a war on Iraq?

Why do you think the biggest part of Europe does not agree with an attack?

No, we don't love Saddam, but we do realize that a war is wrong, that it'll make things worse. And that the Iraqi people will not accept an invasion.

There is a reason why so many people disagree, and you can't just blame the media... Think about it...

Open your eyes, and see what many don't believe...

[FallenPaladin 0]

Very good post, DarkLight, and I totally agree with you!

Better written than I ever could with my poor english skills. You wrote down a lot of my thoughts were clearly!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Jan. 03 2003,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Very good post, DarkLight, and I totally agree with you!

Better written than I ever could with my poor english skills. You wrote down a lot of my thoughts were clearly!<span id='postcolor'>

Holy shit, i always find it hard to express what i'm trying to say because my english sucks.

Maybe after all those years i'm starting to learn some stuff

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Jan. 03 2003,11:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense to any americans, only to President Bush`s foreign policy  

If I was Saddam Hussein (I`m not! ), I`d go into exile. So I would spare my people a war. Then I`d start laughing until I fall down dead, because Mr. Bush would get a hell of problems to attack iraq, because he would have to invent a new reason to attack. Wonder what he would come up with, because he has only two years left, before the new elections take place! No oil, what a pity...  <span id='postcolor'>

You have two problems with your theory.

1. Saddam doesn't care about his people-ie:chemical attacks on his own people.

2. If this was only about oil, why didn't the US take what they wanted the first time they were there?

[Frisbee 0]

If it was about Saddam why didn't they remove him the first time?

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Because then President Bush was told by the U.N and other Arab countries that they would have to stop when Kuwait was liberated.   Bush agreed to keep the "coalition" happy. This has been stated publically in the press.

[5thSFG.Hawkins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Jan. 03 2003,17:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense to any americans, only to President Bush`s foreign policy

If I was Saddam Hussein (I`m not! ), I`d go into exile. So I would spare my people a war. Then I`d start laughing until I fall down dead, because Mr. Bush would get a hell of problems to attack iraq, because he would have to invent a new reason to attack. Wonder what he would come up with, because he has only two years left, before the new elections take place! No oil, what a pity... <span id='postcolor'>

Well, no offense to your leaders, at least I can say my President is actually doing something to confront the problems at hand. It is sad to choose to deny the fact that the issues, which are a concern to rational thinking people, exist.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arab countries that they would have to stop when Kuwait was liberated.<span id='postcolor'>

Hm why did western nations enter Iraq then ?

I mean it makes no sense to say the purpose of the war was to free Kuwait only. If that was the goal there there would have been no necessity to fight on Iraq´s soil.

I still have the opinion that I had when Gulf war was fought. Noone really dared to go into city fightings that could have been a real desaster for allies. To bomb towns was a very much safer way to get Saddam down on his knees. If there had been the intention to kill / remove Saddam from power the strategies had to be totally different. Not to forget that US already tried it with locals but they were uncovered and executed multiple times.

You may not like it, but Saddam is a clever guy. Noone knows how many "surgical twins" he has, but there are at least 4 confirmed guys looking, speaking and acting like Saddam Hussein. His personal guard is one of the best trained and controlled one in the region. He knows that he has enemies.

And he has taken his measures.

Here is a pic that shows the real Saddam in the back and his duplicates in front. Saddam Hussein didnt show on TV for more than 4 years.

His last confirmed personal appearance on TV was at the end of 1998. Than he had a 4 year break or substitutes showing up on TV. His next confirmed  personal appearance on TV was on 21st september 2002.

EDIT:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is sad to choose to deny the fact that the issues, which are a concern to rational thinking people, exist.

<span id='postcolor'>

No facts or proves till now. Speculations and accusations dont make facts. When will you ever get the difference ?

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 03 2003,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is sad to choose to deny the fact that the issues, which are a concern to rational thinking people,  exist.

<span id='postcolor'>

No facts or proves till now. Speculations and accusations dont make facts. When will you ever get the difference ?<span id='postcolor'>

Basically that's what this upcoming war is all about...

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 04 2003,12:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arab countries that they would have to stop when Kuwait was liberated.<span id='postcolor'>

Hm why did western nations enter Iraq then ?

I mean it makes no sense to say the purpose of the war was to free Kuwait only. If that was the goal there there would have been no necessity to fight on Iraq´s soil.

I still have the opinion that I had when Gulf war was fought. Noone really dared to go into city fightings that could have been a real desaster for allies. To bomb towns was a very much safer way to get Saddam down on his knees. If there had been the intention to kill / remove Saddam from power the strategies had to be totally different. Not to forget that US already tried it with locals but they were uncovered and executed multiple times.

You may not like it, but Saddam is a clever guy. Noone knows how many "surgical twins" he has, but there are at least 4 confirmed guys looking, speaking and acting like Saddam Hussein. His personal guard is one of the best trained and controlled one in the region. He knows that he has enemies.

And he has taken his measures.

Here is a pic that shows the real Saddam in the back and his duplicates in front. Saddam Hussein didnt show on TV for more than 4 years.

His last confirmed personal appearance on TV was at the end of 1998. Than he had a 4 year break or substitutes showing up on TV. His next confirmed  personal appearance on TV was on 21st september 2002.

EDIT:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is sad to choose to deny the fact that the issues, which are a concern to rational thinking people,  exist.

<span id='postcolor'>

No facts or proves till now. Speculations and accusations dont make facts. When will you ever get the difference ?<span id='postcolor'>

In addition to liberating Kuwait, the goal was to weaken his army so he would not be a threat to his neighbors. Namely Saudi Arabia, who if I recall invided US troops to protect their oil fields.

As far as not fighting in the city, Maybe it was to minimize military and civilian casualties? Just maybe?

Actually, I read that Bush did try to kill Sadaam but it was by dropping 2-5000lbs bombs on a bunker he was in. The bombs obviously didn't work.

[Frisbee 0]

I'll say it again :

If there are facts,which would appeal for a war against iraq,

then why isn't the un joining in this war,since I assume the un is filled with a bunch of 'rational thinking people'

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Well, I don't think the war has started yet so there is still time for the U.N. to decide to support or not support Bush. They have not said either way. Isn't Jan 27th a deadline they announced for a report to them.

Also, I wouldn't assume that everyone in the U.N. is rational. You know what they say about assuming!

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.Hawkins @ Jan. 04 2003,18:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Jan. 03 2003,174)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense to any americans, only to President Bush`s foreign policy  

If I was Saddam Hussein (I`m not! ), I`d go into exile. So I would spare my people a war. Then I`d start laughing until I fall down dead, because Mr. Bush would get a hell of problems to attack iraq, because he would have to invent a new reason to attack. Wonder what he would come up with, because he has only two years left, before the new elections take place! No oil, what a pity...  <span id='postcolor'>

Well, no offense to your leaders, at least I can say my President is actually doing something to confront the problems at hand.  It is sad to choose to deny the fact that the issues, which are a concern to rational thinking people,  exist.<span id='postcolor'>

The iraqi people didn`t ask the USA for help this time, neither did some of the surrounding arabic countries. And why should the Iraq be a concern to rational thinking people? Well, it`s ruled by a dictator, right, but he hasn`t threatened neither us european countries nor the USA in the last years. Saddam was relatively quiet! And why? Very easy, because the moment he would do something irrational and dangerous the whole world would kick his ass, even his arabic neighbour countries would confront him. But he`s not doing something like that and there`s been no proof for any danger coming from the iraq for the last months, while the US government is happily preparing it`s war against iraq, aside this little colonialist Mr. Blair.

If I analyze President Bush`s behaviour there are the following reasons, why he wants to attack the Iraq:

1. His father failed in the gulf war to drive Saddam away from his reign, so it`s up to Bush jr. to avenge his father!

2. Oil!

3. More Oil!

I`m really thankful that there are only two more years until the next elections in the USA. If I imagine what could have happened with an US president like Bush jr. in the Cold War, I`m really frightened!

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

So in the meantime we wait for a mushroom cloud in Kuwait or wherever. Then you can complain because the US didn't do anything?

Yes, there are some people in Iraq who have asked for help. There are some groups in the north and southern zones that have been petitioning the US Gov for years to do more. I bet the relatives of the Kurds he gased want him out or don't they count as Iraqi people? It's not like there is free speach in Bagdad either!

Also, the U.N. hasn't decided against going to war or for it. They have said that Iraq isn't complying with requests though. SEE THIS

Also, everytime Iraq fires at a US or British plane in the U.N. mandated no fly zone doesn't qualify as a threat huh? He has been targeting planes for 10 years!

[FallenPaladin 0]

There have also been US or british planes that entered iraqi airspace. And nearly all iraqi air defense batteries have been destroyed, no matter if they locked onto an airplane or not. I really am no dictator lawyer, believe me, but I think right now the situation is relatively positive. There are weapon inspectors in Iraq and they can search any place now, whenever they want. If they really find any threats or facilities that are in use to create B or C weapons, then there should be indeed some consequences. But right now the US government seems to force into war. I live near enough to the AFB in Frankfurt/Main, Germany to see all the Galaxys they use for transport, when they fly over our heads. Why don`t wait and research, before acting too fast? There`s still time for diplomacy, but all Pres. Bush does is threatening.

And you can`t fight "Evil" everywhere. If you fight the Iraq, because it is reigned by a dictator and you fear some possible use of A, B, C weapons you could fight worldwide on at least 20-30 locations! So why is Pres. Bush so focussed on the Iraq if you don`t believe my reasons for Pres. Bush to attack Iraq? The Iraq is too far away to be a harm for the USA and noone should be punished without proof. Why isn`t Bush fighting on all the other places in the world, where such evil lives with that enthusiasm like he`s showing it regarding the Iraq? Hard to answer, right?

It should always be:

In dubio pro reo (if I remember right, it`s been a while since my last latin lessons  )

[FallenPaladin 0]

And regarding your link:

I wouldn`t trust neither NBC or CNN nor iraqi media in news concerning this topic

In such a case I`d try to get my news from countries that are not involved that much. I`d read swedish articles or so. Media is always a very tricky thing

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Actually it isn't. Iraq is not too far away to harm the US indirectly but maybe directly. It has been reported that Al-Queda operatives had met with Iraqi intelligence in the past. How do you know that Saddam hasn't sold them anything or won't in the future if nothing is done? You don't!

There has also been reports that Syria is hiding Saddam's WDM within it's borders. Nice behavior from a security council member!

Bush is not running around all over because not all of those places have WMD. I am sure some things are being done in some other regions, not all acts of the US Government are public domain though.

I agree that Bush should have proof before invading. I believe he has it, he just hasn't made it public. But I don't believe Bush has attacked anyone yet has he?