The Iraq Thread

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 12 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 12 2002,23:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we do nothing we are criticized...

If we go to action we are criticized...<span id='postcolor'>

It is the combination of those two: Doing nothing in some cases and going to action in other.

In one moment ignoring the international comunity ("What International Crime Court? We have our own laws") and in the second demanding of everybody to follow your lead ("We must all unite against the terrorist threat against us .. etc").<span id='postcolor'>

Also,it's quite impossible to completely eliminate the threat of terrorism,unless you keep this war on terror constant.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bart.Jan @ Dec. 13 2002,00:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a child I lived in comunistic Czechoslovakia. There was, and is, good education system so people was educated. It was reign of terror but majority of people doesn't know or they didn't want to know. Every elections comunistic party has 100%(! of all votes. Everything seems to be correct. I thought west imperialistic countries are our enemies because they want to destroy our prospering happy country and I has only one planned future - as member of communist party. I thought it's only one good way. Our problem was solved peacefully over time.

But if there were some "liberators" that came to our country, killing our citizens, bombing our factories, towns (many military resources was located near towns) I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".

If there will be US-Iraq war and US wins, I think there will be little of true happy Iraq citizens. I think there will be needed really big propaganda (another brainwashing) to convice common citizens that US armed forces killed them for their own good.<span id='postcolor'>

I think you've said it perfectly. In the Bay of Pigs the US pulled out after rattling things up a bit and expected the whole population to rise up against Castro. Instead they found everyone incluiding teenage kids going to fight the invasion . If enough people feel they are opressed, they will sort it out themselves. Otherwise leave them the hell alone, it's their way of life, and they will defend it just like Americans defend theirs.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 12 2002,23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we don't go to war they'll attack us.

If we do go to war, they'll attack us.<span id='postcolor'>

Rubbish.

If the US were to pull out of everywhere, disband all bases all over the world and pull back to US territory and declare international isolation, then none of them terrorists would have a case (they would think they "won"), and it would be over. That is the easiest thing to do.

To be quite honest, the more I am watching and reading the news, the more I think it would be better for EVERYONE to have an isolationist US and an isolationist EU - we could develop further and the rest would leave us alone and die in their own stupid little quarrels.

I know this is radical, but I am thoroughly fed up with all this war and terrorism bullshit.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 12 2002,18:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bart.Jan @ Dec. 13 2002,00:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a child I lived in comunistic Czechoslovakia. There was, and is, good education system so people was educated. It was reign of terror but majority of people doesn't know or they didn't want to know. Every elections comunistic party has 100%(! of all votes. Everything seems to be correct. I thought west imperialistic countries are our enemies because they want to destroy our prospering happy country and I has only one planned future - as member of communist party. I thought it's only one good way. Our problem was solved peacefully over time.

But if there were some "liberators" that came to our country, killing our citizens, bombing our factories, towns (many military resources was located near towns) I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".

If there will be US-Iraq war and US wins, I think there will be little of true happy Iraq citizens. I think there will be needed really big propaganda (another brainwashing) to convice common citizens that US armed forces killed them for their own good.<span id='postcolor'>

I think you've said it perfectly. In the Bay of Pigs the US pulled out after rattling things up a bit and expected the whole population to rise up against Castro. Instead they found everyone incluiding teenage kids going to fight the invasion . If enough people feel they are opressed, they will sort it out themselves. Otherwise leave them the hell alone, it's their way of life, and they will defend it just like Americans defend theirs.<span id='postcolor'>

Commie Poland here....

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Dec. 13 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also,it's quite impossible to completely eliminate the threat of terrorism,unless you keep this war on terror constant.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly. I'm starting to think the US just NEEDS to have a boogeyman in order to justify their military. One day it's Ho Chi Mihn, later we'll switch to Castro, after that maybe Saddam, Hey wow, here's one guy that actually did something against us! We taught the ungrateful bastard how to do it too! - Osama.....dang, we can't find him. Ok, well....let's make this interesting, let's go after Saddam one more time....

Anyone who feels the US truly cares about democracy abroad, should read this report (I know some will cry "flamebait" at the title - read it with an open mind)

U.S. Foreign Policy -- A Study in Hypocrisy by William Blum

Some quotes:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the United States has seriously interfered in elections all over the world for

decades, and has overthrown several governments which came into power through free

and fair elections, as in Chile, Australia, Bulgaria, Brazil, Nicaragua, and British

Guiana.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

In 1998, the State Department issued a report listing Cuba amongst those nations alleged to “sponsor terrorismâ€. Curious about this, I called up the State Department and was connected to what they called “The Terrorism Deskâ€, where a man told me thatCuba was included because “They harbor terrorists.â€

“So does the United States,†I replied. “The Cuban exiles in Miami have committed hundreds of terrorist acts, in the U.S. and abroad.â€

The gentleman exploded. “Sir,†he cried in a rising voice, “that is a fatuous remark and I will not listen to such nonsense!†And he hung up.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Imagine that the cold war is still going on, and the Soviet Union, citing some very minor pretext, filled the skies with bombers over, say, Greece, bombing the civilian population, killing hundreds or thousands, making thousands more homeless ... without having been first attacked by Greece, or threatened in any way by Greece. If this, at the time,

had been called an act of terrorism, who would have objected? Well, the scenario I just described is exactly what the United States did to Panama in 1989.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since 1945, the United States has attempted to overthrow more than 35 foreign governments, and to put down more than 20 popular revolutions being waged against repressive regimes. American officials, who would not dare to interfere in matters of state of Kansas, do not hesitate to do so in the affairs of other nations.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Finally, there’s human rights, one of the most repeated official slogans of recent years. But it’s repeatedly ignored when it stands in the way of other goals or needs more important to Washington. When U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked if it wasn’t hypocritical to punish Burma for human rights violations while refraining from sanctions against China for similar actions, she replied, “We have consistent principles

and flexible tactics."<span id='postcolor'>

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 12 2002,19:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Dec. 13 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also,it's quite impossible to completely eliminate the threat of terrorism,unless you keep this war on terror constant.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly. I'm starting to think the US just NEEDS to have a boogeyman in order to justify their military. One day it's Ho Chi Mihn, later we'll switch to Castro, after that maybe Saddam, Hey wow, here's one guy that actually did something against us! We taught the ungrateful bastard how to do it too! - Osama.....dang, we can't find him. Ok, well....let's make this interesting, let's go after Saddam one more time....

Anyone who feels the US truly cares about democracy abroad, should read this report (I know some will cry "flamebait" at the title - read it with an open mind)

U.S. Foreign Policy -- A Study in Hypocrisy by William Blum<span id='postcolor'>

Good show I didn't know we had students writing these kinds of reports.

Here is another interesting quote: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What to Do

The question I?m most often asked is how to change the kind of behavior of U.S. foreign

policy that I speak and write about. It?s a very difficult question. It often seems that the

bad guys have all power and all the wealth. And when all else fails, they have the

police and the military. I think the two greatest barriers to social change anywhere in

the world are:

(1) the overwhelming tendency of police and soldiers to follow orders; and

(2) the ease in which the vast majority of any population can be taught to believe

whatever the ruling class would like them to believe.

But in all the movements for change that are active now, the individuals and the

organizations have become much more sophisticated. From the sixties on, they?ve

learned a lot about how power works. They?ve learned how to see behind the official

lies. They?ve learned how to use technology to compile an enormous amount of information, current and historical; how to put two and two together to come to

conclusions which the mass media rarely mention, even when they?re obvious; and to

share it all with the world on the internet and elsewhere. This is a potent weapon for

activists. <span id='postcolor'>

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 13 2002,03:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't know we had students writing these kinds of reports.<span id='postcolor'>

Unfortunately we probably don't . That's my website, the pdf came on this CD:

Propagandi: Today's Empires, Tomorrow's Ashes

They're a punk band from Western Canada, unfortunaltely I was dissapointed by most of the music on the CD, but they make up for it by incluiding video and documents such as that one. There is a video that goes with that report which I would host, but it's around 40 megs, and near the end shows a former policeman from El Salvador graphically describing how they dealt with communists...so probably not appropriate for this forum

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the US were to pull out of everywhere, disband all bases all over the world and pull back to US territory and declare international isolation, then none of them terrorists would have a case (they would think they "won"), and it would be over. That is the easiest thing to do.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words, "Surrender to end this war"

I'm not going to counter any of the obviously anti-U.S. propoganda thats been posted because I just got done watching Apocolypse Now, and my mind is severely wasted. That stuff counters itself and it's not worth any more attention than what it takes to read the first sentence or two and realize that it's propoganda.

But I will say this: this war isn't about oil, it isn't about revenge for September 11th, it isn't about whatever other stupid plot someone made up. This is about Bush protecting America and it's allies. What happened on September 11th showed us that we could be attacked. Now our #1 goal is to prevent that from happening again. It's just that simple.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,03:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That stuff counters itself and it's not worth any more attention than what it takes to read the first sentence or two and realize that it's propoganda.<span id='postcolor'>

This is for example how people in communist countries or the Iraquis feel about anything the US says. Welcome to the wonderful world of the True Believer . You won't even consider the remote possibility of any of it. Well, I lived in Latin America, I know a lot about US involvement, a large section of this report deals with Latin America, and let me tell you, I can assert that that is true.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What happened on September 11th showed us that we could be attacked.<span id='postcolor'>

Duh

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Now our #1 goal is to prevent that from happening again. It's just that simple.<span id='postcolor'>

An undending war against a vague enemy, waged in order to achieve an unattainable goal. Like I said, the US needs a boogeyman.

[FSPilot 0]

Well it's not like we started the war. We were minding our business and wham, September 11th.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,03:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well it's not like we started the war. We were minding our business and wham, September 11th.<span id='postcolor'>

ROFL...*sigh* read the report and tell me again about minding your own business, or for that fact, just look at your response to this again:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the US were to pull out of everywhere, disband all bases all over the world and pull back to US territory and declare international isolation, then none of them terrorists would have a case (they would think they "won"), and it would be over. That is the easiest thing to do.<span id='postcolor'>

And once again, remember who trained Osama.

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,03:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well it's not like we started the war.  We were minding our business and wham, September 11th.<span id='postcolor'>

America minding its own business...

Anyone seen pigs fly lately?

It's name is a war on terrorism,but the US declared it a war by stating they'd pursue terrorists and nations harbouring them.(terrorism is not an act of war but terrorism)

You could count the Jihad as a war maybe.

Not trying to sweet talk terrorism against US,but saying 'we didn't do them any wrong' is just plain hypocritical

[FSPilot 0]

Which report, the one that's blatantly anti-U.S. propoganda or the one on the punk rock site? lol

And quit throwing what the CIA did in our faces. We all know what happened, it's just that it simply doesn't make a difference.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Which report, the one that's blatantly anti-U.S. propoganda or the one on the punk rock site? lol<span id='postcolor'>

If you can't tell that there is only one report then I truly worry about you

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

And quit throwing what the CIA did in our faces. We all know what happened, it's just that it simply doesn't make a difference.<span id='postcolor'>

And then why exactly does Osama or Saddam make a difference?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Dec. 13 2002,09:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's name is a war on terrorism,but the US declared it a war by stating they'd pursue terrorists and nations harbouring them.(terrorism is not an act of war but terrorism)

You could count the Jihad as a war maybe.

Not trying to sweet talk terrorism against US,but saying 'we didn't do them any wrong' is just plain hypocritical <span id='postcolor'>

So wait, by retaliating we're starting the war?

Man your guys' logic is more upside-down than I originally thought.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Dec. 13 2002,091)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's name is a war on terrorism,but the US declared it a war by stating they'd pursue terrorists and nations harbouring them.(terrorism is not an act of war but terrorism)

You could count the Jihad as a war maybe.

Not trying to sweet talk terrorism against US,but saying 'we didn't do them any wrong' is just plain hypocritical <span id='postcolor'>

So wait, by retaliating we're starting the war?

Man your guys' logic is more upside-down than I originally thought.<span id='postcolor'>

*sighs once again* If you read the report, you'll see the "war" has been waged by the US via the CIA and the Endowment for Democracy for decades

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

Is there some way you guys can coordinate your posts so I can get them both with one?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you can't tell that there is only one report then I truly worry about you <span id='postcolor'>

Well there might have been information you wanted me to look at at the band's website, I didn't know. Either way they're both obviously biased and pretty worthless because of it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And then why exactly does Osama or Saddam make a difference?<span id='postcolor'>

huh? When did I say something about Saddam?

Why doesn't it make a difference? Because Osama Bin Laden was our ally back when the Russians were involved in Afghanistan. Just like Russia was our ally before and during world war two.

We were allies, but things changed.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*sighs once again* If you read the report, you'll see the "war" has been waged by the US via the CIA and the Endowment for Democracy for decades<span id='postcolor'>

Like I've said before, I'm not going to respond to blatantly anti-U.S. propoganda.

What the CIA did was in the interests of the U.S. They weren't in Afghanistan because they hate muslims or because they have a grudge against Bin Laden. They were doing what was good for the U.S. at the time.

[Tovarish 0]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,048)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

Is there some way you guys can coordinate your posts so I can get them both with one? <!--emo&

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you can't tell that there is only one report then I truly worry about you <span id='postcolor'>

Well there might have been information you wanted me to look at at the band's website, I didn't know. Either way they're both obviously biased and pretty worthless because of it.<span id='postcolor'>

Once again, the True Believer speaks up. No wrong can be done by his government. You would have made a great Soviet citizen.What would you say to an Iraqi that told you "I won't listen to anything the western world says because it's all Anti-Saddam Hussein propaganda"?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And then why exactly does Osama or Saddam make a difference?<span id='postcolor'>

huh? When did I say something about Saddam?

Why doesn't it make a difference? Because Osama Bin Laden was our ally back when the Russians were involved in Afghanistan. Just like Russia was our ally before and during world war two.

We were allies, but things changed.<span id='postcolor'>

If the naughty things the CIA has done to other countries shouldn't matter to the world, why should the naughty things other countries or individuals do to the US matter? Just trying to follow your logic.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They were doing what was good for the U.S. at the time.<span id='postcolor'>

<span style='color:red'>ding!ding!ding! Give the man a prize!</span> I agree! THAT's the problem! "We do what's best for us and screw whoever that may offend, we're bigger!" Well, unfortunately smaller guys are in a good position to strike where it hurts most.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Once again, the True Believer speaks up. No wrong can be done by his government. You would have made a great Soviet citizen.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, I know I've said this at least once. But if my country does something wrong I'm not going to abandon it and run for the hills. I'm a patriot, as you've already labelled me several times. I know my country has made mistakes in the past, but that doesn't mean we cant do good things in the future.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the naughty things the CIA has done to other countries shouldn't matter to the world, why should the naughty things other countries or individuals do to the US matter? Just trying to follow your logic.<span id='postcolor'>

And you're dictating my logic now?

There's a difference between what the CIA did and what terrorists do.

These terrorists don't have a decent reason to kill people. It's either for revenge, or because we're not muslim. The U.S. had reasons of national interest. The U.S. had enemys and was trying to get rid of them. It's what countries do, it's called reality. These terrorists are the ones you should be mad at. They're the ones killing innocent civilians for no good reason.

But let me ask you a question instead of constantly defending my position all the time. What do you think we should do? Seriously now, tell me what you would do if you were George W. Bush, and YOUR country had just been attacked. YOUR citizens were sleeping next to gas masks, YOUR neighbors were afraid of a nuclear attack on their country. What would you do?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span style='color:red'>ding!ding!ding! Give the man a prize!</span><span id='postcolor'>

If you're going to make a joke out of this don't expect me to take you seriously.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i agree! THAT's the problem! "We do what's best for us and screw whoever that may offend, we're bigger!" Well, unfortunately smaller guys are in a good position to strike where it hurts most.<span id='postcolor'>

Those smaller guys were our enemy. Why is that hard for you to understand?

We helped our allies and attacked our enemys.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, I know I've said this at least once. But if my country does something wrong I'm not going to abandon it and run for the hills. I'm a patriot, as you've already labelled me several times. I know my country has made mistakes in the past, but that doesn't mean we cant do good things in the future.<span id='postcolor'>

Man, that's great, but it's a problem when you won't adcknowledge mistakes, or or acknowledge information because it shows your countrymay have been doing something wrong for years which offended many throughout the world and played a large hand in this terror mess

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you're dictating my logic now?

There's a difference between what the CIA did and what terrorists do.<span id='postcolor'>

Again from the report:

"in 1985, in an attempt to assassinate a certain Muslim

leader in Lebanon, the CIA arranged for a car bomb to go off. The bomb went off, and

killed 80 people, but not including the Muslim leader."

Sound familiar?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

These terrorists don't have a decent reason to kill people.

<span id='postcolor'>

An attitude like that is exactly why this war will never end. Revenge is not a good reason?? Then what the hell is the US doing now? Do you truly believe these people woke up one day and said "Hey, I know what, let's kill some Americans!"

Explain to me why it was necessary or justifiable to treat Castro as an enemy from day one. Also explain why the Bay of Pigs was necessary or justifiable

Explain to me why it was necessary or justifiable to suport Pinochet in his bloody coup agains a democratically elected government in Chile

Explain to me why The many other interventions that are listed in that report were necessary or justifiable

Now imagine such things being done by a foreign organization to the US...that's what you call terrorism.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i agree! THAT's the problem! "We do what's best for us and screw whoever that may offend, we're bigger!" Well, unfortunately smaller guys are in a good position to strike where it hurts most.<span id='postcolor'>

Those smaller guys were our enemy. Why is that hard for you to understand?

We helped our allies and attacked our enemys.<span id='postcolor'>

....and you hurt a lot of people in the process and made more enemies....Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Man, that's great, but it's a problem when you won't adcknowledge mistakes, or or acknowledge information because it shows your countrymay have been doing something wrong for years which offended many throughout the world and played a large hand in this terror mess<span id='postcolor'>

I acknowledge plenty of my country's mistakes. But just because someone says it's a mistake doesn't make it so.

The conspiracy about Pearl Harbor: mistake. Lying about spy planes over the Soviet Union: mistake. Attacking our enemys and helping our allies: not a mistake.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again from the report:<span id='postcolor'>

For the last time, I'm not going to recognize that report as anything except anti-U.S. propoganda. There are at least two sides to every story of things that have happened. The events in Somalia for example.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Revenge is not a good reason?? Then what the hell is the US doing now?<span id='postcolor'>

Defending itself. You think this is about revenge for September 11th? Do you really think that the president would use his countrys military force for revenge? That's just not right. The U.S. is defending itself. Al Queda proved itself to be a threat, so we're taking it down. Not because of what it did, but because of what it can do. At least thats my opinion. There are about a billion different theorys as to why we're bombing Afghanistan.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you truly believe these people woke up one day and said "Hey, I know what, let's kill some Americans!"<span id='postcolor'>

When did I say that? No, I don't believe that. And I don't believe that they have a real reason to attack the U.S. They're not protecting themselves. Maybe in their own little skewed version of the world they are, but not in reality.

You still haven't told me what you would do in the U.S.' position. Kind of a sticky situation isn't it? Things the president isn't responsible he has to take care of. Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant, they happened and there's no changing that. We have to deal with what's going on right now, and that's what the presidents doing.