Remnants of War, CSAT and NATO in relation to Oreokastro. ***SPOILERS***

[sonofthekraken 15]

In the new campaign added in Laws Of War, you are a mine disposal specialist discovering the story of the town of Oreokastro. About halfway through the campaign, the topic of a cluster strike on the town in explored in the REDACTED mission. It is suggested that CSAT Spec-Ops coordinated the strike, as support for the AAF. At the end of the mission, it is said that it's a possibility that NATO was behind the strike all along to get the Pyrgos government to improve their relations. Furthermore, the whole story is very patchy since it was told to the reporters/villagers by a goatherd who didn't speak much english. There were also reports of NATO caliber bullet casings found in the castle. My theory is that it was really NATO CTRG who coordinated the strike. CTRG uses the SPAR series of weapons, which fire 5.56 NATO rounds. These rounds are not caseless. Also, if you inspect the UXO's in Oreokastro, they are the exact type of charges NATO clusterbombs use. Thank you for reading my theory.

[drebin052 324]

5 hours ago, sonofthekraken said:

it is said that it's a possibility that NATO was behind the strike all along to get the Pyrgos government to improve their relations.

 

If CTRG were really the ones that called in the strike, then improving relations with Akhanteros' government was the last thing that they would want. Remember, relations were already souring several weeks prior to the siege when TF Aegis were essentially told to piss off by Akhanteros himself following the failed FIA uprising in Kavala.

 

If anything, the siege just made it even worse for the government since the aftermath of Oreokastro's destruction was used by the FIA as a rallying point for their recruitment efforts. It severely hurt the government's legitimacy from both abroad and domestically since it was regarded as being too harsh. So even though the siege was a victory for Akhanteros in the short term, it destroyed any chance of the government ever stamping down the FIA permanently.

 

5 hours ago, sonofthekraken said:

My theory is that it was really NATO CTRG who coordinated the strike. CTRG uses the SPAR series of weapons, which fire 5.56 NATO rounds. These rounds are not caseless.

 

Seeing as how the Katiba is also caseless like the MX, it's not too far fetched that they were the ones that cleared out the castle. My guess is that the CSAT recon team was probably at the site and CTRG were observing them the entire time but didn't act until later on after the airstrike.

 

However, what really happened afterwards (probably) was that upon seeing the IDAP doctor in the village the CSAT team called off the strike to prevent collateral damage. But CTRG either intercepted the message or misled the AAF pilot into continuing the strike anyway.

 

Keep in mind that one of the primary motivations that CSAT had with regards to getting involved on Altis was improving their PR image, so killing NGO aid workers would hardly be in their best interests. Since the existence of those CSAT operatives were denied by their governments anyway, they were expendable and whether or not they were killed by CTRG afterwards would not be a concern for them.

 

5 hours ago, sonofthekraken said:

Also, if you inspect the UXO's in Oreokastro, they are the exact type of charges NATO clusterbombs use.

 

The AAF also use the same cluster bombs as NATO, albeit outdated ones (BL778) as opposed to the modern ones primarily used by NATO aircraft (CBU-85).

[sonofthekraken 15]

57 minutes ago, drebin052 said:

The AAF also use the same cluster bombs as NATO, albeit outdated ones (BL778) as opposed to the modern ones primarily used by NATO aircraft (CBU-85).

Yes, they use the similar clusterbombs, but the charges are visibly different. I made a screenshot of the three UXO's each faction has. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1133233473 

As you can see, NATO clustercharges are the ones Nathan encounters in Oreokastro.

[Wiki 1558]

Well, I think we'll never find out anyway.

Not even sure BIS does know who conducted that airstrike.

But I assume they must enjoy reading all the theories about it.

[lexx 1389]

CTRG is not NATO, by the way. They do not want a better relationship with the Altis government. In fact, they do everything they can to escalate it. There are hints about it all over the game, starting with FIA mentioning the brits being good friends and working with them for a long time already, up to the clusterbombing *against* the FIA, as well as NATO command giving orders to Kerry at the end of the campaign *not to* get into contact with Miller again, etc.

They are Black-Ops and the only thing they apparently want is the East Wind Device from CSAT. The Remnants of War campaign underlines this with making this whole "was it really CSAT?" point and at the same time mentioning that the whole time, CSAT behaved very passive, taking great care of their image to the public... in such a case it makes no sense for them participating in a war crime. They just arent this stupid.

[Ex3B 266]

On 9/11/2017 at 2:37 PM, sonofthekraken said:

My theory is that it was really NATO CTRG who coordinated the strike. CTRG uses the SPAR series of weapons, which fire 5.56 NATO rounds. These rounds are not caseless.

"Your theory" is simply stating the obvious implication. At the end of the mission, the image flickers to show the CTRG team instead of CSAT blackops, and they pretty much explicitly state that there were rumors that it was NATO. I might as well post about "my theory" that the "East Wind" device was the cause of the earth-quakes.

I noticed the mention of casings too, but this seems like BS to me. #1 Miller's CTRG group that we saw on Altis was using caseless ammunition, all the NATO forces were using caseless ammunition. The only groups using cased ammunition before the Apex expansion were the AAF and FIA, which used 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds - the "old" NATO standard. 5.56 and 7.62 are widely used around the world now, and finding those cases anywhere doesn't imply that it was NATO firing the shots. CSAT could have easily went in with AAF rifles and equipment (just incase they were discovered).

Given that NATO/CTRG had ready access to caseless weapons, you'd think they'd use them to avoid leaving evidence behind.

From a rational point of view, this story of NATO casing doesn't make much sense.

 

On 9/11/2017 at 7:40 PM, drebin052 said:

 

If anything, the siege just made it even worse for the government since the aftermath of Oreokastro's destruction was used by the FIA as a rallying point for their recruitment efforts. It severely hurt the government's legitimacy from both abroad and domestically since it was regarded as being too harsh.

Yea, and that's basically what the narration described... but there's still no real explanation why they were supporting the FIA so early, why the AAF attacked NATO when NATO was leaving anyway... or numerous other plot holes.

 

 

On 9/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, lexx said:

CTRG is not NATO, by the way.

I was under the impression that CTRG was a secret subdivision of NATO that was operating independently of the conventional ground forces.

Its true in Apex there is a mention of a NATO liaison, as if they were separate though (I think this was a liaison to the NATO *Task Force* - and CTRG was operating independently of the task force while still being a part of NATO). Yet so far we've seen American and British forces as components of CTRG- notably the USA and UK are NATO members as well. 

NATO is a military alliance among many countries, and if those allies form a special ops group as allies under that alliance, wouldn't that make CTRG a subset of NATO? -although I suppose you could say its a separate alliance, and there are simply overlaps between the membership of CTRG and NATO.

Anyway, the nation-states directing CTRG are the same as those directing NATO, which raises the question of why the conventional NATO forces and CTRG were working towards such opposite goals before "the Stratis incident"

[drebin052 324]

11 hours ago, Ex3B said:

but there's still no real explanation why they were supporting the FIA so early, why the AAF attacked NATO when NATO was leaving anyway... or numerous other plot holes.

 

More detailed backstory for them would indeed be good.

 

It seems like BI are working towards filling those holes (gradually) and haven't neglected it at the very least, which is what I was afraid of happening after Apex. Since Remnants provided some backstory with regards to what happened in the year spanning from after the Prologue to before the Altis Incident, perhaps Tac-Ops will have its own mini-campaign along with the promised SP scenarios?

[sonofthekraken 15]

On 14.09.2017 at 11:36 AM, drebin052 said:

perhaps Tac-Ops will have its own mini-campaign along with the promised SP scenarios?

Yeah, Tac-Ops would be a great chance for Bohemia to reveal some new things, maybe show the Stratis Incident from the CTRG's perspective, shed some light on things.

[M. Glade 524]

On 9/17/2017 at 4:11 PM, sonofthekraken said:

Yeah, Tac-Ops would be a great chance for Bohemia to reveal some new things, maybe show the Stratis Incident from the CTRG's perspective, shed some light on things.

 

Not only a great chance, but the last chance.

 

I've been dying to see where this "Kerry" and "Miller" finally goes, and how James comes back alive in Apex. Would pay top dollar to see more progress on this campaign, which started amazingly well with Stratis. 

[mrempireman 5]

 

Millers team that conducts the bombing could very be from the prolong campaign. Look at the images I posted below. The first one is an earthquake from the east wind device when you are driving up the road to help an AAF patrol that ran into trouble. The second image happens when you are sent to a ambushed AAF security convoy meant to arrive for the peace talks in kavala between FIA and AAF. When you are on the ground a CSAT chopper goes past, this may or may not be the miller team, BUT have a look at the 4th image and 5th image. In my opinion CTRG have access to disguise them selves as CSAT, as also seen  in option B when in the last mission of east wind. They used the AAF commander to help locate the CSAT deivce as CSAT probably had better relations with AAF at that time. I reckon the AAF commander used  CTRG to bomb the town as a deal for information about CSAT device. CTRG used the FIA to hide themselves as well as getting more information. In the Game over ending, CSAT open fire on the AAF meaning they probably knew the only way NATO or CTRG could have got this device was from information given to them by the AAF. During one mission where kerry blows up a CSAT chopper using a AAF rogue asset, James's team links up with him at the end of the mission and James is unhappy . This is probably because CSAT now have lost trust with the AAF, meaning  it's gonna be a lot harder for CTRG to get info from the AAF about the device. Also in the 4th pic, Broadway tells Conway to stand down, this is probably because some higher up above broadway who is in NATO working with CTRG told him to. That's why I think those 3 redacted dudes in the background of that picture are Brits


https://imgur.com/a/jOAs9    https://imgur.com/a/whwXF    https://imgur.com/a/WQ2xs        https://imgur.com/ZXg6WG6               https://imgur.com/a/Hf856
 

[M. Glade 524]

On 10/26/2017 at 11:06 AM, mrempireman said:

 

Millers team that conducts the bombing could very be from the prolong campaign. Look at the images I posted below. The first one is an earthquake from the east wind device when you are driving up the road to help an AAF patrol that ran into trouble. The second image happens when you are sent to a ambushed AAF security convoy meant to arrive for the peace talks in kavala between FIA and AAF. When you are on the ground a CSAT chopper goes past, this may or may not be the miller team, BUT have a look at the 4th image and 5th image. In my opinion CTRG have access to disguise them selves as CSAT, as also seen  in option B when in the last mission of east wind. They used the AAF commander to help locate the CSAT deivce as CSAT probably had better relations with AAF at that time. I reckon the AAF commander used  CTRG to bomb the town as a deal for information about CSAT device. CTRG used the FIA to hide themselves as well as getting more information. In the Game over ending, CSAT open fire on the AAF meaning they probably knew the only way NATO or CTRG could have got this device was from information given to them by the AAF. During one mission where kerry blows up a CSAT chopper using a AAF rogue asset, James's team links up with him at the end of the mission and James is unhappy . This is probably because CSAT now have lost trust with the AAF, meaning  it's gonna be a lot harder for CTRG to get info from the AAF about the device. Also in the 4th pic, Broadway tells Conway to stand down, this is probably because some higher up above broadway who is in NATO working with CTRG told him to. That's why I think those 3 redacted dudes in the background of that picture are Brits


https://imgur.com/a/jOAs9    https://imgur.com/a/whwXF    https://imgur.com/a/WQ2xs        https://imgur.com/ZXg6WG6               https://imgur.com/a/Hf856
 

 

Makes alot of sense but I don't think BIS thought that specifically out as much as you lol..

 

CTRG is part of NATO because if you go to the Apex campaign mission overview text, it says play the role of a NATO CTRG Operator. And even with Tac Ops we still don't know who the fuck they are.

[Wiki 1558]

Just brits spec ops like sas or sbs.

In apex, mission firestarter, in the end they say something like "nato is gonna be our taxi again" or something like that

[drebin052 324]

More specifically, Truck says that:

 

Quote

Truck: So, NATO's gonna be our chauffeur again?

Salvo: That's one way of putting it.

 

14 hours ago, M. Glade said:

CTRG is part of NATO because if you go to the Apex campaign mission overview text, it says play the role of a NATO CTRG Operator.

 

Well...we do have tidbits of information here and there. For example, we know for sure that CTRG operates under NATO's mandate and is not some shady PMC or unknown non-government SF group; that it's multi-national and doesn't just consist of Brits, with the nationality of the operators simply differing depending on where the Group operates. 14 for instance, is predominately British since Altis used to be a British colony, while 15 consists of Americans since Tanoa is a Pacific Rim nation.

 

And then there's the brief shot of the satellite map that shows several more Groups operating throughout the globe:

 

Spoiler

 

Group 1 operate in Afghanistan (or maybe the marker points to Pakistan?).

Group 3 is set in what appears to be Lebanon.

Group 6 is obviously in Iran itself.

Group 8 are in what looks like the border of Azerbaijan and Russia.

Group 10's marker is in the Philippines.

Group 12 operate in the small islands east of South Sumatra.

 

We can probably assume that each Group would be comprised of different nationalities tailored for each region

 

But yeah...

 

14 hours ago, M. Glade said:

And even with Tac Ops we still don't know who the fuck they are.

 

It's a shame Tac-Ops turned out to be another red herring since the only thing that we know for sure is that...

Spoiler

...CTRG were already working alongside the loyalists when the civil war kicked off.

 

And aside from that, nothing else. I really wish they'd make another mini-campaign just to brush things off properly...but I guess that's never going to happen now...