Helicopter camera

[RacerX 55]

2 hours ago, teabagginpeople said:

 I am showing true colours and immaturity? weren't you the guy going around screeching bis said it's your problem ,you fix the camera. and a bis dev had to pull you up and say....well... no... why would they?you know why they pulled you up?because it was untrue. you know who I don't lose sleep over telling me I'm immature. people who exaggerate or twist words so they can faux outrage. 

 

yeah I forgot you are a professional you have a TrackIR. 

EDIT: So what you are saying is that I am a liar and everything I have said is untrue? So there is no issues with the camera? And it is fake outrage? Is that correct? So only your point of view is the correct view right? And all of us here are faking outrage correct?

[R0adki11 3949]

2 hours ago, teabagginpeople said:

I am showing true colours and immaturity? weren't you the guy going around screeching bis said it's your problem ,you fix the camera. and a bis dev had to pull you up and say....well... no... why would they?you know why they pulled you up?because it was untrue. you know who I don't lose sleep over telling me I'm immature. people who exaggerate or twist words so they can faux outrage. 

 

3 minutes ago, RacerX said:

yeah I forgot you are a professional you have a TrackIR. 

 

No need for the flame-baiting posts. @BohemiaBeck has already asked users not to. Otherwise forum penalties will be issued. 

[Firebird-B4L 51]

This may sound strange but last night I remembered something that I discovered as a kid while looking in the mirror.  When you think about it, it will gel and will totally explain why this camera change does not make sense.

 

Here's the thing, If you tilt your head from side to side while looking in the mirror, your eyeballs don't go sideways, they remain upright and on a level platform.  Same thing and even more obvious if you look up and down while  focusing on your eyeballs.  If you look carefully you can observe this.  

 

Bohemia's tweak is like super gluing your eyeballs to your head and then super-gluing your head to the back of the imaginary axis at the tail of the helicopter, and if you have a Track IR, it now becomes a weird fight to correct something rather than turn your head to look around in more of a natural manner.

 

What am I getting at?  The game camera is our virtual eyeballs.  The camera needs to remain level?  Am I defeating myself with my own argument?  Is this true for third person?  Yes it is, absolutely, it makes perfect sense, unless you want to reproduce an exaggerated, drunken rollercoaster effect for a rider rather than provide stability for a pilot.

 

The eyeball design/accident/billions of years in the making/forming/coming together by years of trial and error through nature (where's the failed monkey/man before monkey became man and why are there still monkeys with eyeballs?)

 

Nevermind, but I think you get what I'm saying here...Camera=eyeball.  I don't think you can improve on billions of years of evolution or a well designed biological camera from a designer: however you want to look at it.  

 

If you disagree, go buy some superglue or maybe rig some sort of duct-tape experiment and try and tape your head to the back of your car seat and go over a bunch of bumps.  You might be able to drive better, but nah, I seriously doubt it.  Really, though, as a disclaimer, don't do that (for those who haven't received the Darwin award yet).

[RacerX 55]

19 minutes ago, romille1 said:

If you disagree, go buy some superglue or maybe rig some sort of duct-tape experiment and try and tape your head to the back of your car seat and go over a bunch of bumps.  You might be able to drive better, but nah, I seriously doubt it.  Really, though, as a disclaimer, don't do that (for those who haven't received the Darwin award yet).

I tried it and came to the conclusion you are 100% correct :P

Sorry i couldn't resist we could use some humor in this thread :P

[Firebird-B4L 51]

I'm really worried that someone is going to want to "give the duct-tape driving idea" a chance, thinking we could get eventually get used to it.

 

However for a third-person camera experiment you'd have to rig some sort of attached car seat to the vehicle about 15 meters behind your car and then have a friend drive while you are duct taped at the back (maybe a long I-beam could hold the weight of a person welded to the frame?).  Mythbuster's remote-controlled car would have been perfect to test this type of experiment.  

 

However you could use a camera instead of a real person.  Have a fixed camera that follows the vehicle and then try a smart camera with a gyroscope to more represent the eyeballs.

 

This camera deal really is a no-brainer when you actually realize this.

 

 

 

 

[Greenfist 1863]

Hate to interrupt all the fun analogs here, but I just dropped by to link my mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=942539625

It nails the horizon in place on all helicopters' cameras. It changes the helicopters base class, thus affects all choppers that don't have their own camera parameters defined.

Only works in game version 1.72 or later, so you'll have to wait 2 weeks before using it in the stable branch, or you can try it now on the dev build or release candidate.

 

Don't get me wrong; I still don't think this is better than the current vanilla camera, but since it was so simple thing to mod, and apparently very widely needed, I just wanted to do something constructive for a change.

[Firebird-B4L 51]

3 hours ago, Greenfist said:

Don't get me wrong; I still don't think this is better than the current vanilla camera, but since it was so simple thing to mod, and apparently very widely needed, I just wanted to do something constructive for a change.

 

Thanks for this and taking the time.  It seems like things are moving forward in a very nice direction.

[Greenfist 1863]

I was just informed that the camera parameters work on the current main build 1.70 too. Sorry if anyone wasted time to download an another version to try the mod. :(

 

Hence, the check for game version was removed from the mod, and server key were added.

[RacerX 55]

so has anybody had a chance to test it? Is the fov correct and everything?

[Greenfist 1863]

Just now, RacerX said:

so has anybody had a chance to test it? Is the fov correct and everything?

The fov is untouched in the mod. It only addresses the camera angle, which I thought was the biggest issue here.

Do you mean the speed related fov or the default fov or eye position?

[RacerX 55]

I just saw your youtube vid on steamworkshop. It looks correct check it out when I get home 9 hrs from now :(

Im curious to see it during a fast insertion in a little bird during landing

[Firebird-B4L 51]

8 hours ago, RacerX said:

so has anybody had a chance to test it? Is the fov correct and everything?

 

I'd test it if i was able (gaming PC not working at the moment).

[Firebird-B4L 51]

Buy any beans today Spike?

[Firebird-B4L 51]

8 hours ago, RacerX said:

I just saw your youtube vid on steamworkshop. It looks correct check it out when I get home 9 hrs from now :(

Im curious to see it during a fast insertion in a little bird during landing

 

Getting close to go-home time.  Can you make a video of that hot landing so we can watch it?

[b501 7]

Still dont understand why Bohemia thought it would be a good idea to change the heli camera that everyone has used for over TEN years. If it aint broke dont fix it, feels bad man.

[pooroldspike 129]

3 hours ago, b501 said:

Still dont understand why Bohemia thought it would be a good idea to change the heli camera that everyone has used for over TEN years. If it aint broke dont fix it, feels bad man.

Developer Oukej said say they changed it because jet pilots wanted it changed.

Pity they never bothered to ask heli pilots if they wanted it changed too..:)

PS- they also changed the Titan AA lockon parameters and new Blackfish VTOL controls too, I don't know if anybody asked for the changes, but they've certainly buggered the game up because now it's almost impossible to shoot down fast-moving jets, and the Blackfish is almost unflyable, it lurches around like a crackhead.

 

11 hours ago, romille1 said:

Buy any beans today Spike?

Not today mate, but I've been thinking of popping over to this place round the corner from me to ask the ladies if they can read my palm and tell me if I'll ever be piloting the Blackfish again-

 

[RacerX 55]

14 hours ago, romille1 said:

 

Getting close to go-home time.  Can you make a video of that hot landing so we can watch it?

naw im not going to make a video for this but I did test out Greenfists mod. I like it with one little exception. It may not be the mod i don't know but I like the fixed horizon settings. The problem I am having,and its not much of a problem, but it seems zoomed in to much in 3rd person. That could be my TrackIr also. I can fix this problem by sitting back from the TrackIr camera. Thing is though when I do this it feels very un-natural. I have my joystick and throttle controllers on either side of me on my desk. Leaning back to zoom out with hands on controllers does not feel natural. (this is why I didn't make a video. Picture this: place your hands on desk like you are using your mouse. While doing that move head back away from computer monitor. This is the un-natural feeling I am referring to)  in respect to the controls If the setting of the FOV could be set initially zoomed out a bit (just a tad) from the on-start I feel this mod would be perfect. Has BI opened up the config settings for the camera to change FOV? But like I said it may be my setting not the mod. Can somebody else test it out also before we ask Greenfist to make any changes? Just having the camera fixed to horizon is good for me. The FOV thing I can work around by re-calibrating my TrackIR. I would call this mod a success. 

[Greenfist 1863]

45 minutes ago, RacerX said:

naw im not going to make a video for this but I did test out Greenfists mod. I like it with one little exception. It may not be the mod i don't know but I like the fixed horizon settings. The problem I am having,and its not much of a problem, but it seems zoomed in to much in 3rd person. That could be my TrackIr also. I can fix this problem by sitting back from the TrackIr camera. Thing is though when I do this it feels very un-natural. I have my joystick and throttle controllers on either side of me on my desk. Leaning back to zoom out with hands on controllers does not feel natural. (this is why I didn't make a video. Picture this: place your hands on desk like you are using your mouse. While doing that move head back away from computer monitor. This is the un-natural feeling I am referring to)  in respect to the controls If the setting of the FOV could be set initially zoomed out a bit (just a tad) from the on-start I feel this mod would be perfect. Has BI opened up the config settings for the camera to change FOV? But like I said it may be my setting not the mod. Can somebody else test it out also before we ask Greenfist to make any changes? Just having the camera fixed to horizon is good for me. The FOV thing I can work around by re-calibrating my TrackIR. I would call this mod a success. 

The mod only changes the pitch of the camera. Although, I too felt like the distance from the vehicle or the fov was somehow different, but I just checked the actual FOV angle in-game and it was the same with or without the mod. Both the position and fov can easily be changed with mods though.

It probably feels closer because the 1.70 update removed the old speed dependent fov.

[oukej 2911]

On 10. 6. 2017 at 11:09 AM, pooroldspike said:

Developer Oukej said say they changed it because jet pilots wanted it changed.

Not only. It's not just about jets vs. helicopters.
But the new camera still fixes several issues that were present with the old one.
One is usability for attack runs. Often the vehicle boresight would end outside of the screen and you didn't know where you were aiming.
Or when flying the quadcopter drone - it's more enjoyable to fly the drones now in 3rd person, you know where you're flying, it's easier to avoid overcompensation and fatal drops.
Other reasons would include feeling, dynamics (which can be arguable and subjective) and at last but not least the technology unification.

 

On 10. 6. 2017 at 11:09 AM, pooroldspike said:

changed the Titan AA lockon parameters

This is offtopic. Titan has been changed deliberately - it's been an integral and required part of the Sensor Overhaul to balance the missiles and countermeasures. As always - we're open to feedback! Please continue on this topic in the linked thread.
Manpads should have a very limited capability against fast air, they are mostly meant to be used against helicopters.

 

On 10. 6. 2017 at 11:09 AM, pooroldspike said:

new Blackfish VTOL controls too, I don't know if anybody asked for the changes, but they've certainly buggered the game up because now it's almost impossible to shoot down fast-moving jets, and the Blackfish is almost unflyable, it lurches around like a crackhead.

This is a bit trickier subject (and also OT ;)). The change has been triggered by changing the airplane throttle behavior from "autothrottle" to a standard incremental throttle. Previously you'd have different VTOL behavior, different manual vectoring control or even different dive rates depending on what controls you were using. This basically meant no manual vectoring as long as you were only using keyboard. We've made it more consistent and we also recognize that it's now more difficult to fly the VTOLs. Tweaks to VTOL flight models are still a possibility.
For further feedback and more info pls go to

 

[bullet purveyor 85]

1 hour ago, RacerX said:

"That could be my TrackIr also. I can fix this problem by sitting back from the TrackIr camera. Thing is though when I do this it feels very un-natural. I have my joystick and throttle controllers on either side of me on my desk. Leaning back to zoom out with hands on controllers does not feel natural. (this is why I didn't make a video. Picture this: place your hands on desk like you are using your mouse. While doing that move head back away from computer monitor. This is the un-natural feeling I am referring to)

 

just lean in towards the screen a bit when you use the TrackIr reset button, then when you sit in normal seat postilion the fov will be further back than normal. A nice little TrackIr trick that work in all games with zoom in/out, when you need a little wider fov on the fly.

[RacerX 55]

48 minutes ago, Greenfist said:

The mod only changes the pitch of the camera. Although, I too felt like the distance from the vehicle or the fov was somehow different, but I just checked the actual FOV angle in-game and it was the same with or without the mod. Both the position and fov can easily be changed with mods though.

It probably feels closer because the 1.70 update removed the old speed dependent fov.

With TrackIR i can calibrate and zero out the FOV by actually putting my head closer to TrackIR camera,zeroing (F12), then go back to my natural head position and its right where I need it. So because of this TrackIR "thing" im not sure I can give accurate feedback 

[RacerX 55]

1 hour ago, bullet purveyor said:

 

just lean in towards the screen a bit when you use the TrackIr reset button, then when you sit in normal seat postilion the fov will be further back than normal. A nice little TrackIr trick that work in all games with zoom in/out, when you need a little wider fov on the fly.

ninja'd :P Yep got it:

 

EDIT:

@Greenfist @oukej

So is there a way to turn off the automatic speed-to-zoom factor? I find the automatic zooming with speed thing screws me up. Not on takeoffs but with reduced speed and zooming in on landings. I would prefer the option to disable this effect. (not saying its the mod but arma itself) IMO if the camera is locked to horizon(which it is) and the auto zooming is off (which is not) and zeroing my TrackIR correctly to adjust FOV (which it is) IMO would solve all of the camera issues for heli's. Im curious to see other peoples findings

So my idea to BI would be this:

1: Toggle for autozoom on/off 

2: Toggle for fixed to horizon on/off

You could do this one of two ways. Either put the options to toggle in the game UI user control settings with a tick/checkbox

OR

Add the toggles to the action menu of the helicopters and maybe even the VTOLs. (From a dev point of view I think this is more feasible. Once one helicopter is fixed its just a matter of copy and paste to the config files (ture/false in config.cpp If true: then "insertVariableHere" If false: Then "insertVariableHere") of all heli's and VTOLs the new changes, re-PBO ,and push to BI's repository for testing) 

[oukej 2911]

There is no autozoom. The old automatic FoV changes have been removed in 1.70.
If you're experiencing a zoom-in at certain speed it may be caused by the HeadRange mod for TrackIR.
Please see

 

[RacerX 55]

13 minutes ago, oukej said:

There is no autozoom. The old automatic FoV changes have been removed in 1.70.
If you're experiencing a zoom-in at certain speed it may be caused by the HeadRange mod for TrackIR.
Please see

 

looking...will edit this post with findings

So according to that thread the autozooming was caused by a mod?  Head Range Plus mod? I am not using this mod and helis I have been flying are vanilla. We will use the ghosthawk as an example here as this is what I tested with. @oukej are you saying this Head Range Plus mod is the cause or the solution to autozooming the camera? I am not understanding

[RacerX 55]

So my 2nd test findings are this: @oukej @Greenfist @feint

Settings with the headrange plus mod fixed auto-zooming

 Taken from Feint's Head Range Plus Mod:

    // THIS MODIFIES THE UH-80 TRANSPORT HELICOPTERS
    class Heli_Transport_01_base_F: Helicopter_Base_H
    {
        class ViewPilot: ViewPilot
        {
            // Field of View Limits
            initFov = 1;
            minFov = 0.3;
            maxFov = 1.2;

 

   Greenfists mod cfg

 

      class CfgVehicles
{
    class Air;
    class Helicopter: Air
    {
        extCameraParams[] = {0,10,50,0.5,1,10,30,0,1};
    };
};

  

So with that said my advice to to BI is the same:

Add options to the action menu for pilot for both Heli's and VTOLs (Picture 1)

1: "Lock camera" (locks camera to horizon) Greenfist's mod

2: "Disable autozoom" (sets FOV to 1) Feint's mod

Now the video below (video 1) is the autozooming problem part 2 I am referring to: All I do is get into pilot seat and the zooming out starts. This IMO is a problem. During landing if any objects are around the camera will zoom into then out from that object.

look here in this video below (video 2) whats going on with the autozoom here? The camera is autozooming in and out on landing. I will go towards and away from the sandbag areas of the landing pad behind the helicopter. Watch what the camera autozooming does with my head (TrackIR) perfectly still. This happens with or without TrackIR enabled.

 

This autozooming is the problem. But there is 2 parts to this problem. Feint's mod fixes the FOV problem by locking FOV to 1

Ok done!

Let's move past that now we have a second problem as shown in Video 1 and Video 2. 

Whatever is causing this needs the option to be disabled.

We need Fixed FOV ( i think 1 is the magic number here in 3rd person)

And we need the camera fixed to the horizon

And we would like to have these settings in the vanilla game (not being dependent on mods) but leave the camera controls configurable as they are now so that a mod maker,if he/she chooses, may change these settings for whatever reason.

 

I tried and edited this post like 10 times to be as explainable and as thorough as I possibly can. I hope this post answers any questions the devs may have regarding the heli/VTOL camera problem with the hope we can finally put this issue behind us.