Cold War US Army loadout question

[REFORGER88 144]

Hi all, I'm new to the forums but I have been playing for a while now, with a special interest in the Cold War era. I came here hoping for some assistance on a question that has been bothering me. I have something of my own personal headcanon for the events of the Armaverse, and I wanted to start making missions that take place during the Cold War. The timeline I've worked up involves a conflict between the US Army's 193rd Infantry Brigade and the Soviet 2nd Guards Motor Rifles in the year 1988.

Now, I know that the M16A2 was phased into US Army service in 1985-6, but I was wondering about the feasibility of equipping my US Army infantry assets with M16A1s. I have the RH M16 pack with its well-textured and modeled M16A2s, but I recently downloaded Unsung to see the variety of Cold War assets I could translate into the 1980s setting. The M16A1 model they have is quite exquisite, and the selection of Cold War vehicles, aircraft in particular, is also very interesting. I wanted to see if I could get some input as to what model of M16 I should use, because I can't decide. For anyone who takes the time to read this and comment, thank you very much in advance!

[scimitar 221]

First of all, welcome to the forum. I share similar interests, so let me see if I can help. I was in the US Army from March 1984 until February 1987. In that time I was aware of the M16A2 but I never saw one before my enlistment was completed. From about 1985 through about 1990 or so, the Army was in a very heavy transitional phase, replacing a number of iconic weapons, vehicles and personal gear items. I did a bit of searching on the subject of when the A2 was fully adopted and I believe that you may be okay with using the A1 model for your scenarios but it should be considered that the 193rd was probably on the cusp of receiving the new weapon sometime in 1988 or '89 (if not received already) because they had the A2 during Operation Just Cause in Panama in '89, so it still might not be appropriate. On the flip side, an element of the 5th ID out of Ft Polk still had the M16A1 when they deployed for Just Cause. However, there is always the ability to use creative license should you wish. BIS did so when they used the M16A2 for Operation Flashpoint rather than the more appropriate M16A1 for the time period depicted. When trying to ascertain when a unit received a certain piece of gear, it should be considered that not all of the Army was issued new gear at the same time. Units that were deployed overseas and Rapid Reaction Forces (Airborne, etc), usually got new equipment first. When I was in Germany, we received the new Kevlar helmets at the very end of 1985 but when I reported for duty with the 5th ID at Fort Polk in May '86, they were still using the old steel pots and we still hadn't received Kevlar helmets when I got out of the Army early the next year. The first time I ever saw an M1 Abrams was when I was in AIT at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in the Summer of '84 but if I remember correctly, the first time I saw an M1 Abrams in the field was during Reforger '86. Also, the M51A1 Mutt was being replaced by the Humvee, the M60 was being replaced by the M249 (and M240) and the M1911A1 pistol was being replaced by the M9. There were also many other pieces of gear and weapons being replaced at the time but it would take a lot of research for me to list it all here. Reference sites aren't always useful for finding out when a weapon was actually in wide scale use either. Most will tell you when a weapon was introduced or say when a weapon was replaced but they aren't always correct because such things can actually take years to be implement completely. If you really want to find out specifically when a certain weapon was received by a particular unit, you may have to find a site or a Facebook page dedicated to that unit with participation by veterans of the unit. I belong to a couple of such sites on Facebook that are relevant to when and where I served. I did find some interesting websites while researching your question.

 

This one has some interesting information concerning when the army ordered the first significant number (100,176) of M16A2s in March 1986, followed by a larger order (266,961) in September 1988. Even those dates might not really be specific enough, when you consider how long it might take to go from order to delivery and then to issue to the troops: https://thearmsguide.com/11226/army-resisted-m16a2-part-1-3/

 

There isn't much at this site but if you scroll down and read #3 or look at slide #9, it lists the weapons used by the 7th ID, the 193rd BDE and the 5th ID element during Operation Just Cause. If you want to ensure that your scenarios are historically accurate, then you could always change your unit to the 5th ID (the 4th Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment of the 5th ID was attached to the 193rd during Operation Just Cause), because they were still using the M16A1 in Panama in '89 so would have been using it in '88 as well:  

 

 

[REFORGER88 144]

 

5 hours ago, scimitar said:

... 

 

 

I can't thank you enough! I really appreciate it, and it's great to hear from an actual Cold War vet with experience on the subject. I definitely understand how long it can take the Army to transition weapons platforms on a unit scale, my FA unit is just this year phasing out our M16A2s and receiving M4s. Thanks again for your service, and the help in this matter!

[scimitar 221]

You're welcome and thank you for your service as well. You're service in a FA unit is interesting as well as I'm very familiar with artillery systems from my time in the army. My MOS was 45L Artillery Repair, so you may be familiar with some of the systems that I worked with. I worked on the M102, M109, M110, M198 and the M163 Vulcan ADA. When I was stationed in Germany (Panzer Kaserne) there wasn't much work for my MOS, so I cross trained as a Small Arms Repairer so that I would have something to keep me occupied and off of ridiculous details, such as trash pickup and other nonsense. I was part of an Armament Platoon in a Maintenance Company, so just about every weapon (excluding missile systems and explosives) that the army used at the time, came through our shop at one time or another. That included pistols, rifles, MG's, mortars, artillery, tanks and just about everything else, so I do have a bit of knowledge on the weapon systems of the time. I'm not an expert by any means but since the period is something that interests me, I've done a lot of research on it. I also have a bit of a talent for internet research (if it's out there, I can usually find it) so if you need any assistance with anything else, then feel free to send me a private message and I'll assist if at all possible. BTW, I'm surprised (but not really!) that it has taken so long to replace the M16A2.

 

Considering my interest in the Cold War, I hope to someday see a game (hopefully a BIS one) or a massive mod for A3 (or A4 when it's available) that will revisit the period on a massive scale with assets from all of the NATO and Warsaw Pact countries with a series of "what if?" campaigns based around the possible combatants. I'm not just talking about the Soviet Union, the US and the UK either. I want to see W Germany and Austria vs Czechoslovakia and Hungary or an invasion of W Germany by Poland and the DDR, and/or similar scenarios. For me, that would be a dream game if done properly.

 

***Edit***

 

After I responded, something occurred to me that might be very useful for inspiration and mission ideas. For anyone that has an interest in a fictionalized Cold War combat scenario in Europe in 1988, I highly recommend reading Tom Clancy's classic book, "Red Storm Rising". I read it when I was still in the army and his depiction of combat between NATO and the Warsaw Pact scared the Hell out of me. What he describes is an absolute meat grinder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Storm_Rising

[REFORGER88 144]

1 hour ago, scimitar said:

You're welcome and thank you for your service as well.

My MOS is 13M so we operate the HIMARS, the LMTV-based successor to the M270 MLRS. I got to work with the 270 back in AIT, and the unit I'm with now used to operate the M110 and M110A2 until they phased them out with the introduction of HIMARS. We actually have one of the old M110A2s still around on display, and I really love those old Self-Propelled Guns. I'm also desperately in need of a West German military mod, and can't wait for the one in the works to come out.

If you're into RTS style games, Wargame Airland Battle is probably the most in-depth and realistic portrayal of Cold War strategy and includes multiple NATO militaries from West Germany to the Scandinavian militaries, and Warsaw Pact countries, from the 70s into the late 80s.

And yeah, I have an old copy of "Red Storm Rising" in my bookshelf. It's one of my favorites!

[scimitar 221]

I'm familiar with the MLRS based systems but they aren't something that I ever spent any time around. It's also cool that you guys still have an old M110 on display. Shortly before I left Germany, my company got ahold of an old WW2 era M32 tracked recovery vehicle based on the Sherman chassis to restore. That was a pretty neat vehicle to check out. Also, when I was in AIT at APG, I spent a guard shift one evening guarding the vehicles outside of the armor museum there. I wasn't supposed to but for an armor buff like myself, I couldn't resist climbing around on all those old tanks, halftracks and SPG's. I forgot to mention that I also trained to work on the old M114 howitzer but they were being phased out already when I entered the army so I never saw one outside of AIT. Many of those old weapons have been retired now but surprisingly some of them still soldier on to this day.

 

Unfortunately, RTS games aren't something that I was ever able to get into. I played a few but I always wanted to be in the thick of the action, so I gravitated to simulations and FPS games. As for Cold War mods, as you mentioned, there's the German Armed Forces mod coming to cover the Bundeswehr and DDR NVA, plus from your posts, I know that you're aware of the Conflict '85 CUP expansion that will cover US and Soviet forces and the upcoming CSLA mod (the A2 version was awesome) will cover Czechoslovakian and US units also. I don't know what other Cold War armies might possibly be in the works, but it would be nice to see some fully equipped UK and French units and hopefully more Warsaw Pact units too. As for Conflict '85, I hope that someone will do a replacement config to use the M16A1 from another mod, as I would like to see that for realisms sake. If you're not familiar with the CSLA mod, you can find more information at the ModDB site and in their forum thread:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/csla-mod-for-arma-3

 

As for books, have you ready any of the Larry Bond (he collaborated with Clancy on RSR) books dealing with fictional accounts of major conflicts in the late 80's and early to mid 90's? These three are very good:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Phoenix-Larry-Bond/dp/0446514330

https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Larry-Bond/dp/0446363049

https://www.amazon.com/Cauldron-Larry-Bond/dp/0446600261

 

 

 

[REFORGER88 144]

I'd love a good Cold War BAF mod. I really dig the British armor from that period, the Chieftain is a real beast.

[Tac Error 2]

Another good Cold War gone hot book is Ralph Peters' Red Army (1989), which covers the hypophetical war from a Soviet perspective.

[killjoyau73 359]

Dont forget Team Yankee by Harold Coyle and The Third World War - The Untold Story by Sir John Hackett

 

Both very good books.

[REFORGER88 144]

4 hours ago, killjoyau73 said:

Dont forget Team Yankee by Harold Coyle and The Third World War - The Untold Story by Sir John Hackett

 

Both very good books.

This is a particularly interesting note. I actually have an old copy of the no-shit Team Yankee graphic novel, with all the gloriously accurate lingo and illustrations included, and it even has notes between chapters about the weaponry and tactics of both the US and Soviets during the Cold War. That has to be my hands-down favorite graphic novel that I own. It's amazing what you get when you have a writer and illustrator both interested in accurately portraying all the technical details in the military equipment and story in general.