COOP version of Iron Front campaigns in A3 - opinions and suggestions

[.kju 3244]

I am considering to look into making them playable in A3, and to make playable in MP/COOP at the same time.

Would like to get opinions first if that's a good idea or bad and why.

Also what elements should be added like revive, spectator mode, customization (mainly around revive and difficulty).

Finally would need dedicated and trusted testers for this.

As return we could likely give you a free copy of the FULL IFA3 version if that happens (otherwise you have a free copy of the campaign at least).

[donelsarjo 60]

This is a great idea! I hope to see the sp campaign remade as a MP coop campaign. I would suggest to make a similar respawn (redrawn positions unlocked next to objective if condition fulfilled) and revive (maybe revive only with medic box ) system as present in the apex campaign.

Also I would like to see the new slotting screen, looking like an old document with a nice font.

The enemy scaling according to the player count would also be great in terms of difficulty.

I am really looking forward to see the campaign integrated.

I would be glad to help. Puhh the first mission of the soviet campaign already look problematic with the shooting range. Needs some clever task management .

[.kju 3244]

The intro missions wouldnt be available in MP or the training parts skipped.

Difficulty scaleability probably would be based on adjusting enemy (and/of friendly) units skill.

To adjust the number of units wouldn't work well with the design of the missions as you are often part of larger engagements.

Group respawn likely also the only thing that makes sense and is doable.

Constant respawning or respawn points doesn't fit well to the existing mission design I think.

It would require too much rework and no longer fit the initial design.

While I can see also the arguments of BI with the APEX campaign going easy drop in, unlimited respawn, action based approach,

this is not what the IF campaigns have been designed for and thus wouldn't work without considerable adjustment.

In addition the feedback has also shown that there are still many people they prefer a more realistic and challenging design.

PS: One can always make revive so customizable that it lowers the difficulty enough desired by new players.

[jinzor 31]

Yes, that would be an amazing idea! I would definitely lend my support as a tester to such a co-op campaign mod, and a video series with me and my friends immediately upon final release to advertise them. 

 

I've been dying for a good co-op campaign ever since the failure of APEX's, and I'm sure many people feel the same as I did about it. There are hardly any community-made co-op campaigns for A3, and this would fill a huge niche - perhaps has the potential to get lots of small groups of players into IFA3 as well.

 

In my opinion, either campaign would be fine to play in IFA3 co-op, but the German one I thought was a slightly better experience than the Russian one when I last played it many years ago (it had a better story, more interesting missions - especially the one where you had to get back to friendly lines while commanding the squad for the first time - etc).

 

Regarding co-op mechanics:

• Revive - YES - This is definitely a must. At least, there should be an option in the parameters for players who want it. Revive mechanics in most co-op games add in a sense of reliability upon other players to stick with other players, just incase they fall. In my opinion, it improves the co-op experience.

• Respawn - NO - A respawn mechanic should definitely be a big, fat "no". Or again, at the very least, an option in the parameters - able to turn it off. After witnessing that design decision in APEX's campaign, I have no desire for that to be in my co-op playthroughs. It totally kills any sense of risk / accomplishment as there would be no ability to fail the mission. Mission designers shouldn't be afraid of allowing a player to fail. If a player is afraid of being killed outright while another player is still alive which leaves them with nothing to do, then the revive mechanic should make it so that a downed member stays downed permanently until revived - if all players are down, then the mission automatically fails since nobody is there to revive anyone.

[.kju 3244]

Respawn mechanic don't fit the design of the IF campaigns and large scale redesign is out of scope at this point at least.

Feedback would be useful on:

1) Should the hard variant be default (no revive, etc) or the more beginner friendly (revive active, etc)? (etc should be what?)

2) What about adding some randomness (random probability of placement, random placement radius, random waypoint, random patrol, use of guard waypoint)? (anything else?)

3) Any BI modules to add? (as option?)

4) New task system useful/necessary?

5) Anything else to add/improve?

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/2D_Editor:_Units#Probability_of_Presence

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Waypoint:Guard

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Waypoint_types#Guard

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/2D_Editor:_Waypoints

[jinzor 31]

1. For the "hard" variant, perhaps revive should be off to provide more of a challenge to the player / provides an experience closer to the original? The easier variants should definitely have revive functions.

 

2. That's up to you, I wouldn't mind a bit of randomness if you're willing to implement it. 

 

3. I'm not sure at the moment, I'll try to think of some. Did you have any ideas of existing modules that could be implemented?

 

4. I'm not sure, it's up to you.

 

5. I'll have a think about it, maybe even re-visit some of the missions in the old campaign to remember things that were wrong with them. I do remember that I had a major issue with the cutscenes (the ones that occur in between missions) in the original IF campaigns - they were just terribly paced and prone to lagging. Perhaps they should be in video format, like the ones in APEX / Operation Black Gauntlet (PMC)?

[OrLoK 20]

Hello there

 

How did I miss this thread?

 

Randomness, to me randomness is what *makes* OFP and Arma for me, when the unexpected happens, like a chopper/plane crashing due to user/AI error, suddenly coming upon a squad which wasn't present last time, coming across a cache of weapons etc. all these things are what make the experience for me.

 

Cut scenes are my bugbear in any A3 scenario, be it user missions or one's by BI

 

There are ways of making them actually useful/interesting, but it's rarely done and usually just a 3 min wait as mission start before one can play.

 

Short and sweet bullet points in the map section is all that is needed with the option to read another tab on the Lore/Mission background, if one wants it. Just my humble Opinion, YMMV.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[jinzor 31]

Any progress? 

[.kju 3244]

Most likely will start the work on it next week

[Valken 622]

Great idea and the best way to get users to support IF Full or Lite.

 

I suggest you actually scale the difficulty of the campaign. Similar to the A2 Harvest Red campaign.

 

Revive - yes

Respawn -  depends if it is JIP like in the Escape mission (where new users can drop into the game and spawn at current the squad leader position then yes).

No to unlimited respawns from death as users would just mow through the missions and not care about tactics.

 

The squad should understand the risk of losing with run and guns tactics.

 

The above revive mode at the very least should apply to the first 2 or 3 missions to get users started.

 

Other missions can be scaled to hardcore but all should be server options. You will need a newbie server, and at least veteran settings selectable by the server admin. From there they could make ACE type servers if the community supports it.

 

Look at all the coop servers out there. Users drop out if they cannot rejoin the squad and usually end of as fodder unless they actually form a second squad and take a 2nd or 3rd objective.

 

If this can be tested under IFlite then even better as more users can join in to test.

[.kju 3244]

> scale the difficulty of the campaign

What do you mean by that? Later missions to be more difficult or the parameters to have more rigid/harder defaults?

As explained in post #3 only group respawn make sense imo.

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Respawn#Respawn_Types

The more difficult question if SP should have also group respawn or once you die, its mission lost?

[OrLoK 20]

> scale the difficulty of the campaign

What do you mean by that? Later missions to be more difficult or the parameters to have more rigid/harder defaults?

As explained in post #3 only group respawn make sense imo.

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Respawn#Respawn_Types

The more difficult question if SP should have also group respawn or once you die, its mission lost?

Hello there

 

Can it not be optional?

 

Or is that difficult to implement.

 

IMHO user choice is key.

 

Some MP maps have parameters that one can set before launching the mission, it would be great to have initial campaign settings one can choose, even if its only at the start.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Valken 622]

In Harvest Red, you started in squad and the AI basically covered you while you blew up the target then exfil with an AI

 

In subsequent missions, the enemy AI increased and forced the user to be much more tactical than run to the target, set the det charge then leave.

 

So in a coop mission, the first few objectives must be winnable within reason to encourage the user to go on, and as time progresses or as objectives are accomplished the number of enemies increase and so does their accuracy. This forces the user to slowly but eventually slow down and become much more team oriented and tactical.

 

Example - playing coop Escape Tanoa  online (no addons required), the enemy AI increases as they call in reinforcements after the initial escape. If the team took TOO long in one area, the AI calls in tanks, apc and CAS on the teams location. It keeps the game moving and forces the team to take guerrilla tactics or very good coordinated strikes on targets to keep loss at minimal and to not allow the AI to call in further backup.

 

It was a really good way to play coop and allow new users to work as support for the existing team. Eventually, they can actually scout and do their own parts on their own (become medics, fix vehicles on their own, watch out and offer support fire, etc...).

 

For the campaign itself, if it is broken down into a bunch of missions, then yes, the later missions should be relatively tougher based on number of players. The reason is that you do not want the user to just rush through the campaign and force them to coop. This way you train the users to become more tactical.

 

They can win if they coop. If they Rambo it, then well good luck! :P

 

Also, there should be a selection to set at least regular and veteran difficulty online by default. There are some clans or pub servers that focus on getting better players to participate and they love a harder, not impossible challenge. Elite is crazy hard for even most squads so Veteran level difficulty is a really good balance.

 

If they add ACE + Veteran, that is a good play level to train users into.

 

That's my opinion and I can say I did not play IF yet. So even for me, I would like to ease into the first few missions to understand the weapon mechanics, limits and see how the game plays differently from A2CO and A3. Then eventually, I want it to be "challenging" with a good squad or risk getting bored with God like AI or too easy missions.

 

Balance is difficult in COOP, more so than SP or TvT but is really rewarding to win together with like minds on well planned and balanced missions.

[.kju 3244]

@ LoK

Not sure what exactly you are referring to.

In SP there is no mission parameters. However you can always play self hosted alone and have them available that way.

@ Valken

Before replying - do I understand it correctly that you have not played the IF campaigns yet?

[Valken 622]

@ Kju - correct. I have not played IF at all. :D

[.kju 3244]

@ Valken

The IF campaigns have more or less most of the elements you list.

They start each with a very basic tutorial how to play the game (which wont be in the COOP version, or skipped).

The missions itself start from being part of a team as a regular soldier, to doing more complex tasks, over to vehicle

use or operating behind enemy lines, to end with commanding an AI squad to large groups of AI with high command (not 100%

on this atm) along with large scale battles.

The AI behavior (waypoints and scripted) is mostly basic though and as such I want to enhance it (randomness,

more dynamic, potentially AI squads helping each other to some degree, etc).

> there should be a selection to set at least regular and veteran difficulty online by default

I don't get what you mean here. Default difficulty is defined by the server settings. 

As mentions one will be able also to customize some aspects related to COOP play via mission parameters.

Extensive support is coming with the next update. See the IFA3 release thread for more details.

If they add ACE + Veteran, that is a good play level to train users into.

 

However as said the adjustments will be limited mostly to the existing campaign design (aka I won't redo the general setup),

and we can't use third party (AI) scripts. One should be able to use AI enhancement mods though.

Balance will come from feedback by testers. That said it will largely rely on difficult settings, AI skill settings and mission parameters.

It will remain certainly more of a classic challenging to hardcore experience.

[jinzor 31]

Made a start? It'd be awesome to play this.

[Vojtechsonik 34]

Looking forward to this.

[domokun 515]

1) Difficulty levels

Hard = no respawn & no revive

Medium = no respawn but revive (configurable time-out)

Easy = respawn & revive (configurable time-out)

 

2) randomness = random position of units (with configurable radius), random position of waypoints, random patrols & random weather, 

 

3) What BI modules are you suggesting?

 

4) New task system is good, particularly for new players

 

5) Forget cut-scenes because (AFAIK) they are time-consuming (voice-overs ) & COOP unfriendly (players often chatting).

 

6) Allow players to remove AI from their squad on the briefing page because AI is generally dumb so there's nothing worse than when, during a stealthy mission, your squad is spotted because an AI didn't COPY MY STANCE or HOLD FIRE

 

Above all, players like being rewarded for their successes, i.e. cause and effect whereby their actions on the battlefield have an impact on their future missions, e.g. intel from captured enemy, wider range of weapons from captured units, loss of men through casualties. But I suspect that such dynamic relations are difficult to implement.

[.kju 3244]

Finally getting to have this ready for play-testing. SP is available and COOP soon to follow.

 

If you are interested, please check first http://ww2ina3.com/wiki/index.php?title=Issue_Reporting.

Please understand we will only accepted trusted and dedicated people with a track record in providing good feedback.

 

If you think you are up for it, please contact me via PM/DM on our discord server: https://discord.gg/0vQjglomrhMXqTF1

 

@OrLoK @Valken @domokun 

[.kju 3244]

@jinzor

[domokun 515]

On 2/11/2018 at 2:39 PM, .kju said:

Finally getting to have this ready for play-testing. SP is available and COOP soon to follow.

 

If you are interested, please check first http://ww2ina3.com/wiki/index.php?title=Issue_Reporting.

Please understand we will only accepted trusted and dedicated people with a track record in providing good feedback.

 

If you think you are up for it, please contact me via PM/DM on our discord server: https://discord.gg/0vQjglomrhMXqTF1

 

@OrLoK @Valken @domokun 

PM sent via Discord

[Gunter Severloh 4056]

You want campaigns, i have alot of them!

Panzer Leader Series comprised of 13 coop missions

http://www.missionrepository.com/panzer-leader-series-13

 

Panzer Leader Tank Clash Coop Campaign - Comprised of 20 missions

http://www.missionrepository.com/tank-clash-campaign-20

 

Iron Reich Phoenix Rising Coop Campaign - Comprised of 11 coop missions (I've played all of these online in coop with Major Mayhem, these missions are awesome!)

http://www.missionrepository.com/iron-reich-campaign-12

 

Red Front Coop Campaign - Comprised of 20 coop missions - (same as above played them all with Major Mayhem on his server for IF)

http://www.missionrepository.com/red-front-campaign-20

 

SturmTroopers Mission Series - Comprised of 33 Coop missions - ( same as above played all these on Major's server for IF, these are a blast!)

http://www.missionrepository.com/sturmtroopers-mission-series

 

Kelly's Heroes Mission Series - Comprised of 10 missions based on the movie Kelly's Heroes (Staring Clint Eastwood and many others)

http://www.missionrepository.com/kelly-s-heroes-campaign-10

[.kju 3244]

@Gunter Severloh as always much appreciated! how well does each work in A3 in this state - can you tell by chance?

[Gunter Severloh 4056]

I've only ported one mission from the Sturmtrooper Series which was the one of many i played in IF on Major's server i liked alot, but that was last year,

and when i did the only things i ran into were

• Ammo boxes, some vehicles either floating or under ground, or AT statics not in position in their trenches.
•  A spawn script from arma2oa that Major uses in all his missions where enemies spawn by trigger dont seem to work anymore as far as i can tell but he also places alot of units down too

 

A short run down on Major's missions (the 2 Panzer Leader Series are by Shpagin rest are Majors)

All the missions have the following features:

• Ammo boxes placed in various locations
• Coop - playing alone can be done, but depending on the mission most missions need no less then 2 to get anywhere in, as they can be a real challenge
• Missions have revive (Iron front revive)
• There is no respawn just teamswitch, so in a mission their may be 2-3 squads of AI, and when you spawn in, you are a unit in one of those squads, if you die you basically teamswitch, when all AI units are gone its game over as you cannot go any further
• All missions have objectives or tasks and since the missions are IF based their all done by radio trigger, missions will end when all objectives are completed
• Missions can lag depending as the amount of enemy units already placed, and that spawn in can influence the game, (i personally had no issues when mission were on Major's server which he still runs btw ;)
• Most of the missions are combined arms, theres plenty of tank vs tank opportunities - when we played there was usually 6-12 of us so a couple would go on tanks, rest would use halftracks with AT guns, we setup mortar at base and brought it too
• Many situations where statics can be used especially AT guns vs tanks

If you want to get an idea of what the Sturmtrooper Series, and some of the other campaigns missions are like i have 36 of them i recorded when i was playing with Major in IF.