Russian helicopter crashes in chechnya

[Mister Frag 0]

From http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66965,00.html

Russian Helicopter Crashes in Chechnya

ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia — A Russian helicopter crashed in Chechnya on Tuesday, killing four people, officials said. Media reports said it was shot down by rebels.

The Mi-8 helicopter belonging to Russia's Interior Ministry forces went down near Moscow's main military base in the region, said Alexander Lemeshev, an official at the Emergency Situations Ministry in southern Chechnya.

Lemeshev said the helicopter crashed at about the same time that a shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile was fired in the area. Interfax reported that the helicopter was shot down and quoted an Interior Ministry official as saying four people were killed.

The deputy commander of Interior Ministry forces, Stanislav Kavun, said preliminary information indicated that the craft was shot down while attempting to land, Interfax reported. He said the dead included crew members and passengers.

[bn880 5]

Seriously though, it's a war... We should have made a post about every tank destroyed in iraq.

[USMC Sniper 0]

Helicopters don't crash often anyways...and just becuase it is a war doesn't mean killing can be justified. A Soldiers job is not to die, although there are dangers, his job is to fight, keep peace, etc.

[Placebo 29]

That's not what he's saying, you missed his point.

[USMC Sniper 0]

hes saying that we shouldnt make a post on every time a vehicle is destroyed, but it seems as hes saying "becuase its war it is alright (or not important when) for soldiers to die."

[FSPilot 0]

It simply isn't newsworthy every time a casualty occurs during war. It happens all the time.

Not that it isn't important, but the media doesn't care (well, most of the time) unless it involves a celebrity, or something else big like that.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I think this report is a fair indication that things are pretty quiet, or at least nominal at the moment

[Mister Frag 0]

The reason why I thought it was worth posting is because the helicopter might have been brought down by a ground-to-air missile.

Furthermore, the missile wasn't fired by a uniformed member of a standing army, but a rebel. To me, that's not a regular war.

[Othin 0]

And so we swim into the murkey waters of "what exactly is terrorism".... Regardless my thoughts go out to the families of the soldiers.

[Goodspeed 0]

They are not rebels. They are terrorists. Try to understand it.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ Oct. 29 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They are not rebels. They are terrorists. Try to understand it.<span id='postcolor'>

You must be a Russian

I am not defending the Chechens. They perform acts of terror on civilian populations, like the recent hostage taking.

However,

If a military aircraft over a disputed area is shot down by a member of a group contesting control of the area, it is not 'terrorism'.  In Chechnyia, and when up against the Russian Army, it is very valid to call them Rebels, because that is in essence what they are.  It is a fine line between rebellion and terrorism, and the Chechens often are on the wrong side of that line.  That does not however make all of their actions terrorism.

[Tovarish 0]

Not that I disagree with you Warin, but when was the last time you heard the US call the Taliban/Al-Quaeda they are fighting in Afghanistan "rebels"? Many Russians get peeved just because of that double-standard

[Warin 0]

True enough.

The difference is that the Taliban are a deposed regime, so they arent as much rebels at this point as they are fugitives. I have a very hard time with labelling the Taliban as terrorists. Repressive and extremist yes, but only Terrorists by the grace of Bushdoctrine 1.0.

The most important thing that I want to stress is that when you perform acts of terroism, you run the risk of having anything you do branded as terrorism... and that is what is happening to the chechens, sort of like how it happened to the IRA in the 70's. Call them freedom fighters all you want, but the first bomb they set off in England had them labelled as terrorists.

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not defending the Chechens. They perform acts of terror on civilian populations, like the recent hostage taking.

However,

If a military aircraft over a disputed area is shot down by a member of a group contesting control of the area, it is not 'terrorism'. In Chechnyia, and when up against the Russian Army, it is very valid to call them Rebels, because that is in essence what they are. It is a fine line between rebellion and terrorism, and the Chechens often are on the wrong side of that line. That does not however make all of their actions terrorism. <span id='postcolor'>

I think you lose sight of the heart of the problem. May be you very brainwashed (dont take offence) or may be you're just dont want to understand it. There is time for everything, one day you'll get it but I'm afraid that it'll be very late. God forbid you to meet those "rebels" in real life.

[Placebo 29]

There is no possible way you would think otherwise about them because you're biased, same as I'm biased against the IRA because of where I'm from.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ Oct. 29 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you lose sight of the heart of the problem. May be you very brainwashed (dont take offence) or may be you're just dont want to understand it. There is time for everything, one day you'll get it but I'm afraid that it'll be very late. God forbid you to meet those "rebels" in real life.<span id='postcolor'>

I am not losing sight of the problem, nor am I brainwashed.

The Chechens perform acts of terrorism, this is true.

However, they also do NOT want to be a part of the Russian Federation any longer. It is their nation and if they wish to rebel against what they feel is an unjust governmant, they certainly have a right to do so. The Russian government also has the right to use military force to keep them a part of the Russian Federation. That is what rebellion is about.

Call them terrorists for blowing up Russian apartment blocks, or takng people hostage in a theater. But fighting for ones independance is not terrorism, otherwise the entire US government is built on the back of terrorism, and I doubt anyone can make that statement without being considered a crackpot

[Exodist 1]

Rebels ?

OK

11.09.2002 - Holy pilots, send planes in heart of USA for freedom !!!

IRA - holy rebels and fighters for freedom !!!

Basks in Spain - holy rebels and fighters for freedom !!!

Kurds in Turkey - holy rebels and fighters for freedom !!!

P.s

Maybe you all not remember that 15 years ago Al-Quaeda be "Fighters for freedom" and USA give to talibs money ?

[Goodspeed 0]

People wich killing  other people, steal people, blow up dwelling houses = rebels?

I think its just very comfortable for west to call them rebels, to help them etc... What bad for Russia thats good for us

BTW yesterday, in the terrorists bunker along with weapons Russian forces founded flour from USA and Denmark with inscription "grant".

[Mister Frag 0]

Anyone else have the feeling that this thread just veered off the road and landed in a ditch?

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Oct. 30 2002,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ Oct. 29 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you lose sight of the heart of the problem. May be you very brainwashed (dont take offence) or may be you're just dont want to understand it. There is time for everything, one day you'll get it but I'm afraid that it'll be very late. God forbid you to meet those "rebels" in real life.<span id='postcolor'>

I am not losing sight of the problem, nor am I brainwashed.

The Chechens perform acts of terrorism, this is true.

However, they also do NOT want to be a part of the Russian Federation any longer. It is their nation and if they wish to rebel against what they feel is an unjust governmant, they certainly have a right to do so.  The Russian government also has the right to use military force to keep them a part of the Russian Federation.  That is what rebellion is about.

Call them terrorists for blowing up Russian apartment blocks, or takng people hostage in a theater.  But fighting for ones independance is not terrorism,  otherwise the entire US government is built on the back of terrorism, and I doubt anyone can make that statement without being considered a crackpot <span id='postcolor'>

Ok. Everyone have own point of view. You're just never have been in Russia. So, I cant understand your position.

Anyway I think you're watching CNN too much

[Frisbee 0]

Rebels to one,terrorists to another.

But,this wasn't an act of terror(which is what terrorists do).

An act of terror would be to attack civilians to try to influence the governement.

This is shooting down a military helicopter.

You might think about the possibility that not all chechens approve the acts of terror some of their fellow countrymen do.

The French resistance during WW2 were terrorists according to the germans,and freedom fighters according to the allies.

It's all really subjective.

(BTW : I still believe that chechnya ought to be a part of russia,as it has been for a long time.So I'm not supporting anyone with this post)

[USMC Sniper 0]

The helo was military, but those being transported were not.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ Oct. 30 2002,00:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway I think you're watching CNN too much <span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I watch CBC more than I watch CNN. I like my propoganda to be a little more Canadian. That and I cant understand how they can mouth the Iraq propoganda without bursting out laughing.

Then again, you live in a nation whose major organ for propoganda in the last century was called, interestingly enough, 'Truth'

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, I watch CBC more than I watch CNN. I like my propoganda to be a little more Canadian. That and I cant understand how they can mouth the Iraq propoganda without bursting out laughing.

Then again, you live in a nation whose major organ for propoganda in the last century was called, interestingly enough, 'Truth'<span id='postcolor'>

You cant imagine HOW MUCH I WANT TO BRING BACK that time I'm seriously.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USMC Sniper @ Oct. 30 2002,00:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The helo was military, but those being transported were not.<span id='postcolor'>

Honestly, that is irrelevant. If you step on a military transport in a combat zone and are shot down, you dont really have room to whine that you are a non combatant. About the only exception to that way of thinking is military air ambulances, those should not be molested.

Think about it, how can you know if a military chopper is loaded down with munitions, contains a high ranking officer, or is just a few reporters being flown around? You cant..so a military aircraft is a valid target for rebels/terrorists over contested ground.