Bombs kill at least 150 in bali tourist night spot

[foxer 0]

Terrorist blame message is the U.S.A.Why they do this and that.What is their next blame message going be ? Really think about it,probably some europe country.

If i killed someone and blame someone else,does that guy deserve to get blame for the killing ?

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (SirLoins @ Oct. 14 2002,20:55)

Frizbee is right.

And what amazes me is the automatic assumption that US foreign policies are the cause now for all terrorist activity. Another excuse to blame America first.

As soon as we give into the terrorist, from whatever country they come from, they will have won.

I'm glad to see some people like Frisbee that can actually see we must do all we can to stop these murderers.

Major Fubar Posted on Oct. 15 2002,07:35

So, if we "give in" to terrorists by not going to war, we are being weak.

But if people retaliate to the virtual occupation and dictatorship of their countries and culture by superpowers, by what they consider the only means avaiable (again, not justifying terrorism, just explaining the mindset of the perpetrators), then they are also in the wrong?

Please, explain to me how you rationalize that the Western superpowers should be able to dictate policy to other countries around the world, and decide who their leaders should be? Might makes right? If so, then the superpowers are no less evil or morally bankrupt than the terrorists. <span id='postcolor'>

Giving into terrorist by not going to war are your words, not mine.

Letting them get away with flying airplanes into buildings, will not stand!

But let me ask you.....

With whom would YOU negotiate? hmmm?

Until countries that threaten the United States of America that are controlled by dictators or terrorist groups are brought under control, by whatever means available, then we are obligated to "dictate" to them who should NOT be in power.

That is my rationalization.

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RalphWiggum Posted on Oct. 15 2002,07:57

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Quote

But what has alway botherd me is, where is the outcry from the Muslim communities in the US, (especially the US) and around the world condeming the terrorist actions.

AFAIK, many muslim groups in US condemned attacks while also pointing out US's a bit biased policy.

and where was the outcry of Christians when muslims were attacked on streets after 9-11?

Quote

My point is, that throughout history, the Muslims, and other nations as well, have used war to solve there problems.

It is therefore, my opinion, that that is the language they understand.

yup, that includes US as well. and with your logic, that is the only language that US will understand. <span id='postcolor'>

See Ralph, you should watch FOX news more often. There was plenty of outcry to stop the few isolated incidents of violence against Muslim. I guess they missed it on CBS.

And yes, with my logic, it is the only language, against the terrorist, that the US understands.

However, throughout American history, we have tried over and over again to negotiate peace. Didn't Jimmy Carter just get some sort of prize for that?

But you see, the US has a policy, not to negotiate with terrorist.

Do you think the Osama's of the world want to negotiate?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Oct. 16 2002,01:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Until countries that threaten the United States of America that are controlled by dictators or terrorist groups are brought under control, by whatever means available, then we are obligated to "dictate" to them who should NOT be in power.  

That is my rationalization.<span id='postcolor'>

You are missing the point entirely. Nobody says that what the terrorists have done is defendable in any way. What people are trying to tell you is that terrorit acts are the symptoms of a disease, but not the disease itself. Try to look beyond the simplistic explanation: "we good, they bad".

What we must do is to look for the cause of the disease and in the terrorism case it is a deep cultural, political and economic rift between the western countries spearheaded by the USA and many other countries (especially in the Mid East). Killing off the terrorists is a temporary solution that will only widen the rift and create new terrorists in the future, even more determined then the ones today. What we must do is not to try to cure the symptoms, but try to cure the disease. And that cannot be solved by force but by mutual understanding.

[Major Fubar 0]

OK, one last attempt to get my point across...

Forgetting all about S11 and the Bali bombing - do the pro-US supporters here believe it's OK for America to meddle in the politics of other countries, to set up puppet dictators, to supply dissidents in "unfriendly" countries with arms to wreak havoc...because this has been a large part of USA's foreign policies for the past 30 years or so. Can't you see how that would piss people off?

To give you an example - imagine China becomes the worlds next #1 superpower, and America, England and the other western superpowers have declined in strength. Then China, who believes communism is the best and only way of life, start doing things like funding left wing US political candidates, supplying weapns to radical and violent dissident groups within America, station their own troops in USA and sit battleships off the coast, and eventually install their own puppet President. Would you sit idly by and let your way of life be dictated by a foreign country? Because this is exactly what is happening all over the world with America's foreign policies...at least just think about it.

[Frizbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Oct. 15 2002,11:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 15 2002,107)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't say by not going to war we would be considered weak...  But elimination of the terrorist cells before they get established, before they get weapons and the manpower to carry out co-ordinated attacks with the support structure to disappear afterwards (ie. Al Qaeda, the IRA etc.) is the only way to ensure that terrorism is not used as a weapon in ANY attempt to sway people's emotions.

Think. If you let the terrorists get away with one attack, and withdraw from the war against terror because of them.. then next time that group wants something, they'll resort to another attack.  Why? because it worked.<span id='postcolor'>

And you really think that attacking Iraq will end terrorism?

If you want to retaliate, send special operatives in to arrest/take out/assassinate terrorist leaders. Why bomb a whole country (including civilians), to retaliate against a small faction of fanatics?

What if Timothy McVey (the Oaklahoma bomber) had decided to attack an overseas target instead of sticking in the USA. Would the country concerned be justified in attacking the whole of America?

Anyway, this debate has been done to death on these forums over and over again. Pro-US advocates can't see the cause behind the terrorist attacks...and I'm sure they think the same about those on the other side of the deabte.<span id='postcolor'>

When Did I say that bombing Iraq would end terrorism?

The matter in Iraq with Suddam is about him breaching the United Nations resolutions placed upon his country for his attempts at ethnically cleansing the Kurdish population, now currently protected by the Coalition No-fly zones.

I said that the only way to stop Terrorism was to prevent new cells from becoming established, and from becoming organized. That means, that is is essential for ALL countries to be involved in eradicating such groups.

As if stands now though, Iraq is a major supporter of global terrorism, as is the Palestinian leader. With them still in power it will be impossible to eliminate terrorism on a global scale.

That does not mean though that a full scale bombing of Iraq will work to get rid of him, but again.. the world can not just let Saddam go around ignoring the UN resolutions on weapons creation like he does.

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">denoir Posted on Oct. 16 2002,01:33

What we must do is to look for the cause of the disease and in the terrorism case it is a deep cultural, political and economic rift between the western countries spearheaded by the USA and many other countries (especially in the Mid East). Killing off the terrorists is a temporary solution that will only widen the rift and create new terrorists in the future, even more determined then the ones today. What we must do is not to try to cure the symptoms, but try to cure the disease. And that cannot be solved by force but by mutual understanding.<span id='postcolor'>

I can't agree with it's the US's or western countries fault.

The only reason we're over there is due to their actions, not our policies or economics.

I'm with you 100% on finding the cause of the disease, but,

no one has answered my question as to whom we negotiate with.

We are dealing with terrorist who teach their children in school that killing Americans is a good thing.

You talk about mutual understanding. Wouldn't that be nice.

But why is it always looked at from our inability to understand them, while no mention of them trying to understand us?

Force may be the way to mutual understanding. Sad, but true.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Oct. 16 2002,03:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can't agree with it's the US's or western countries fault.

The only reason we're over there is due to their actions, not our policies or economics.

------------------------------------------------------

We are dealing with terrorist who teach their children in school that killing Americans is a good thing.

------------------------------------------------------

Force may be the way to mutual understanding.  Sad, but true.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't you ever wonder why?

Why they hate the US so much?

Do you really believe people can feel that much hate with no cause?

It's sort of like school shootings: the little kid who gets picked on by the school bully until he snaps, brings a gun to school and shoots 20 kids. No one says what he did is right, but everyone knows why he snapped. Perhaps if the school bully had have not been such a jerk it never would have never happened.

[fraggit 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Oct. 15 2002,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">denoir Posted on Oct. 16 2002,01:33

What we must do is to look for the cause of the disease and in the terrorism case it is a deep cultural, political and economic rift between the western countries spearheaded by the USA and many other countries (especially in the Mid East). Killing off the terrorists is a temporary solution that will only widen the rift and create new terrorists in the future, even more determined then the ones today. What we must do is not to try to cure the symptoms, but try to cure the disease. And that cannot be solved by force but by mutual understanding.<span id='postcolor'>

I can't agree with it's the US's or western countries fault.

The only reason we're over there is due to their actions, not our policies or economics.

I'm with you 100% on finding the cause of the disease, but,

no one has answered my question as to whom we negotiate with.  

We are dealing with terrorist who teach their children in school that killing Americans is a good thing.

You talk about mutual understanding.  Wouldn't that be nice.

But why is it always looked at from our inability to understand them, while no mention of them trying to understand us?

Force may be the way to mutual understanding.  Sad, but true.<span id='postcolor'>

The only reason we are there is because of their actions? Afghanistan yes, the rest of the ME no. We are there because we need oil. We can beat around the bush and say we need to free such and such, but to be realistic we are just protecting our own interests. That's what every country does. If there was no oil in the ME would we really care about what goes on there?

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Until countries that threaten the United States of America that are controlled by dictators or terrorist groups are brought under control, by whatever means available, then we are obligated to "dictate" to them who should NOT be in power.

That is my rationalization. <span id='postcolor'>

so Chile has the right to dictate who US should NOT have! Remember, US got involved in many South American countries's affair with out getting targetted by terrorists.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">See Ralph, you should watch FOX news more often. There was plenty of outcry to stop the few isolated incidents of violence against Muslim. I guess they missed it on CBS.<span id='postcolor'>

nope. i recently heard that O'Reilly went against a priest who claime homosexuality was wrong, and i also heard that Bill O' Reilly is slowly keeping distance away from right side and is moving to moderate side.

and besides, do you actually think a network that shows 'Temptation Island', 'American Idol' to be a moral network?

There were outcries, but did that materialize to the point where communities were keeping an eye on muslim places? nope. not even in california. right after 9-11 some assholes were running around threatening ppl with turbans(Sheiks from India).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And yes, with my logic, it is the only language, against the terrorist, that the US understands.<span id='postcolor'>

and probably muslims think great satan can only understand that language.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, throughout American history, we have tried over and over again to negotiate peace. Didn't Jimmy Carter just get some sort of prize for that?<span id='postcolor'>

which right wings disapproved of.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are dealing with terrorist who teach their children in school that killing Americans is a good thing.<span id='postcolor'>

and we are americans that don't know much about how rest of the world is going. sad, but true. americans have some problem with world's current events.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Force may be the way to mutual understanding. Sad, but true.<span id='postcolor'>

you just justified WTC attack.

[loopy 0]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_40962.asp

Just for the record My nextdoor neighbour is missing was out there on a end of season footy tour(league) I should have gone but couldn`t because of work!!! My heart goes out to all relitives of the missing and dead RIP.latest on bali as 17.00 16.10 from 9 network news

[bogo 0]

Ok i wonder how many people here think that using force is the only way to end terrorism?

[Frizbee 0]

Force is the only way to deal with terrorism.

You can negotiate and use diplomatic solutions with a stable government. To some degree, you can even use diplomacy with a dictator, providing they are willing to listen.

But you can not negitiate with a fundamentalist extremist, who has had hatred for a specific people pumped into them since they were old enough to understand the language of their parents.

The Cause of that hatred isn't America, or the Western worlds presence in other countries. The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal."

Take for example Palestinian suicide bombers. Isreal has twice offered to let the UN organize a peaceful resolution. Once even offering up to 90% of the land (That's Isreali Land, not the Occupied West Bank and Gaza strip) back to the Arab countries that they took it from.

Yet the offer was refused, and the suicide attacks continue.

These terrorists have no logic, and no Morals. You can't negotiate with that. There is no negotiating with terror.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 16 2002,12:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal.".<span id='postcolor'>

And why are they doing that? A hobby perhaps, everyone needs a hobby? </sarcasm>

The problem with approaching the terrorism issue with force is that it just tend to spread and intensify the problem. Killing one set of 'terrorists' will only breed more contempt and hatred, fueling the fires you aim to extinguish. It's a cycle, kill one generation of terrorists without approaching the causes and be prepared to do it all over again with the next generation. Repeat ad-nauseum.

[loopy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 16 2002,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok i wonder how many people here think that using force is the only way to end terrorism?<span id='postcolor'>

like it has worked in NI(northenrn Ireland) maybe not the same situation but princible is the same

[Placebo 28]

ROFLMAO just listening to BBC1 news, results of the Iraqi referendum to decide if Saddam stays in power for another 7 years are just in, 100% turnout, 100% say yes to keep him in power, what a pile of stinking bullshit

Edit: Errr I could have sworn there were conversations about Iraq in this thread, sorry I went OT, I'll post restrict myself for 24 hours

[CosmicCastaway 0]

LOL

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 16 2002,09:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok i wonder how many people here think that using force is the only way to end terrorism?<span id='postcolor'>

A few years ago, some Algerian terrorists hijacked a jet to crash it into the Eiffel tower.  Special forces stormed the plane killing all 4 when it stopped for fuel in Southern France.  What happened after was very interesting.

The French authorities tracked down most of the terrorist leaders.  A few were killed, however most of them quietly got paid huge sums of money to keep their struggle out of France.  So far it has worked very well.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 16 2002,08:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ROFLMAO just listening to BBC1 news, results of the Iraqi referendum to decide if Saddam stays in power for another 7 years are just in, 100% turnout, 100% say yes to keep him in power, what a pile of stinking bullshit

Edit: Errr I could have sworn there were conversations about Iraq in this thread, sorry I went OT, I'll post restrict myself for 24 hours  <span id='postcolor'>

I think they printed the ballots with the "yes" box already checked and the "no" box was missing. So the Iraqi people showed up to the polling station and were handed a ballot and told to go behind the curtain and drop it in the box. I bet there wasn't even a pencil in the booth. That's how they got the 100%

-=Die Alive=-

[Julemanden 0]

I highly doubt this had anything directly to do with Al Quada. Its possible some extreme wing Muslims, since they tend to be not so quite happy with tourists. This is yet another struggle by them to stop tourism and make the country loose money on that.

if such an even will happen again in the near future on the same place (Bali), tourrism industry will be harmed alot, and the country will loose alot of their economic structure and financial tradings - until one day when the whole thing collapses and resuslts in yet another perfect place for the people behind it.

Sickening aint it?

Anyway, not all Muslims are like that of course, and its a pitty I have to generalise like that, since there are many million people that are very happy for the Western world, and for trading etc. I just know that many companies around here simply choose their next place to put down a factory or a service center of some kind in another country, while exploiding what the local religions are at the specific country. Its not racism or seeing down on a particular belief, since theres no recipie on how to live life perfectly. But market investors stambs muslims as generally development halting.

Hope you don't take it the wrong way what im saying here - also, we have no idea yet who is behind the attack (to get ontopic again) - and it could be Al Quada, but if it is, it will be a first step of many in Bali, where in the end they will be enforcing their own laws, which will include taxes etc. to them. Also very sickening - but thats how some people on this planet is - aggressive and find violence the only way to solve some problems.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 16 2002,13:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Force is the only way to deal with terrorism.

You can negotiate and use diplomatic solutions with a stable government. To some degree, you can even use diplomacy with a dictator, providing they are willing to listen.

But you can not negitiate with a fundamentalist extremist, who has had hatred for a specific people pumped into them since they were old enough to understand the language of their parents.

The Cause of that hatred isn't America, or the Western worlds presence in other countries. The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal."

Take for example Palestinian suicide bombers. Isreal has twice offered to let the UN organize a peaceful resolution. Once even offering up to 90% of the land (That's Isreali Land, not the Occupied West Bank and Gaza strip) back to the Arab countries that they took it from.

Yet the offer was refused, and the suicide attacks continue.

These terrorists have no logic, and no Morals. You can't negotiate with that.  There is no negotiating with terror.<span id='postcolor'>

<sarcasm>And almost 50 years of fighting terrorism has brought and end to it . </sarcasm>

[Supah 0]

Turns out some Ex-Airforce officer did it. He said he was sorry for it and that he had never wanted anyone to get hurt. I mean how dense is this guy? put a jeep full of explosives in front of a crowded bar and honestly expects not to kill a single person? man .....

[-AIM- TERMINATOR 0]

Gidday...We Australians were deeply hurt and saddened of what happen in Bali...What we are seeing today the beginning of TERROISM...i doubt there will be more to come and always will be cuz they are everywhere its like rain we cant catch them all....the reason for that is cuz Muslims wants ISLAM law all over the place..........now there are good muslims and bad muslims and the bad ones are far right extremist same with christians...

I dont think this has something to do with our involement with US on IRAQ and Afghanistan, they are just cold blood killers the reason why they bomb Bali just to get International World attention ..cuz alot of tourist got killed not only Aussies but others aswell

my question to USA is why didnt they get rid of Saddam Hussein in the first place? why they cant find Osama Bin Laden?

I am not a preacher but i believe in God interesting fact that the bible says..Men hearts become failing of FEAR of whats coming upon this world.......

so true and accurate i say......its happening everywhere FEAR is the word.....

I believe we are near to the end....

[Frizbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Oct. 16 2002,20:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 16 2002,136)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Force is the only way to deal with terrorism.

You can negotiate and use diplomatic solutions with a stable government. To some degree, you can even use diplomacy with a dictator, providing they are willing to listen.

But you can not negitiate with a fundamentalist extremist, who has had hatred for a specific people pumped into them since they were old enough to understand the language of their parents.

The Cause of that hatred isn't America, or the Western worlds presence in other countries. The Cause of the hatred is the parents of these eight year olds, who are dressing up in suicide bomber's clothing and chanting "Death to America, Death to Isreal."

Take for example Palestinian suicide bombers. Isreal has twice offered to let the UN organize a peaceful resolution. Once even offering up to 90% of the land (That's Isreali Land, not the Occupied West Bank and Gaza strip) back to the Arab countries that they took it from.

Yet the offer was refused, and the suicide attacks continue.

These terrorists have no logic, and no Morals. You can't negotiate with that.  There is no negotiating with terror.<span id='postcolor'>

<sarcasm>And almost 50 years of fighting terrorism has brought and end to it . </sarcasm><span id='postcolor'>

No, that's fifty years of half-heartedly fighting it when it was politically worthwhile getting involved.

If you weren't to pig headed to actually read my posts and get the points from them, you would have seen that in order for any fight against terrorism to succeed, you need EVERY country standing against it.

As for violence breeding violence... thats crap. Remove the children from their parents and bring them up in a non-hostile environment, and there wouldn't be any hatred of America or the Western world, because they wouldn't have that hatred pumped into them from a young age.

All that leaves in the elimination of those already at an age to despise the Western World and want to carry out attacks, and the elimination of new groups before they get a support structure in place.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 17 2002,06:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for violence breeding violence... thats crap. Remove the children from their parents and bring them up in a non-hostile environment, and there wouldn't be any hatred of America or the Western world, because they wouldn't have that hatred pumped into them from a young age.

All that leaves in the elimination of those already at an age to despise the Western World and want to carry out attacks, and the elimination of new groups before they get a support structure in place.<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds easy...so how would you do it? Enforce a US regime on the rest of the world and decide that those who dislike US foreign policy should be removed from their parents to a more "mom & apple-pie" type environment...or maybe easier just to kill them while they are kids.

Come on, get serious.

You can't approach terrorism like you are in a bad Chuck Norris movie...