The Balkans General

[Degman 73]

Please, insert your psovka here _______ ;)

Everything related to The Balkans off-topic belongs in this thread.

NATIONALIST, RACIST and OFFENSIVE posts will be reported to moderators.

i know Croatian friend the truth is hurt everyone who is involved in her !

The truth is a subjective matter.

For some it is based on (measurable, documented, touchable) evidences and research, and for others it is based on blogs, forums, local people's world views, etc.

I believe that we both know which one do you take as truth. :icon_rolleyes:

[mistyronin 1181]

I think it's gonna be an interesting (tho probably "hot") conversation thread.

I'd like to contribute with this piece of news:

(Reuters) Serbia cautions ethnic kin in Bosnia against court referendum

Serbia urged Serbs in neighboring Bosnia on Friday to think again before holding a referendum on the authority of the national court, a vote the West says would challenge the integrity of the Bosnian state.

Serb lawmakers in Bosnia's autonomous Serb Republic voted on Wednesday to hold a plebiscite on the court's jurisdiction, arguing it is biased against Serbs.

The West sees the move as part of a growing challenge by Bosnian Serb leader Milorad Dodik to Bosnia's survival as a state, 20 years after it emerged from a war in which Serbia backed Bosnian Serbs with men and money.

The intervention by Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic reflects the pressure Belgrade feels from the West to support stability in the Balkan region if it is to make progress in talks on joining the European Union.

[Tonci87 163]

Oh boy, this will be messy....

EDIT: not a psovka but very Dalmatian expression of lifestyle : Za dišpet :D

Edited July 20, 2015 by Tonci87

[Degman 73]

I think it's gonna be an interesting (tho probably "hot") conversation thread.

I'd like to contribute with this piece of news:

(Reuters) Serbia cautions ethnic kin in Bosnia against court referendum

Yeah, Serbian Academy of Science and Art is doing it's job. :D VuÄić and Dodik are following the holy book of Memorandum 2 with goal to show the federation and it's institutions as meaningless and uneffective. They really do work hard on it.

[Janez 532]

Please, insert your psovka here tristo kosmatih medvedov ;)

Em... yeahh... :o

Edited July 21, 2015 by Janez

[Tonci87 163]

Slovenia tried to screw over Croatia again. This time they manipulated the EU commission that was tasked to judge where exactly the sea-border between the countries is.

[Degman 73]

Slovenia tried to screw over Croatia again. This time they manipulated the EU commission that was tasked to judge where exactly the sea-border between the countries is.

And now add that Liberland joke to it. :rolleyes:

[oxmox 73]

Not only Hitler & Stalin had agreements to split territories and sphere for their interests, annexed countries......just one example besides other secret agreements during WW1 about partitions & annexation of territories amongst the allies.

In this case it would influence the Balkan....

Treaty of London - 1915

The Treaty of London, 1915, was a secret pact between the Triple Entente and Italy, signed in London on 26 April 1915 by the United Kingdom, France, Russia, and the Kingdom of Italy. Its intent was to gain the alliance of Italy against its former allies, including Germany.

According to the pact, Italy was to leave the Triple Alliance and join Triple Entente; Italy was to declare war against Germany and Austria-Hungary within a month (this happened against Austria-Hungary within a month, but not until 1916 against Germany). Assuming victory against Germany and its allies, the Triple Entente promised Italy the following territorial gains (see Italia irredenta) at the end of the war:

• Tyrol, up to the Alpine water divide at the Brenner Pass, which includes the modern-day Italian provinces of Trentino and South Tyrol.
  
• The entire Austrian Littoral, including the port of Trieste and the Cherso-Lussino (Cres-LoÅ¡inj) archipelago, but without the island of Krk (Veglia) and the Hungarian port of Fiume (Rijeka).
  
• Northern Dalmatia, including Zara (Zadar), Sebenico (Å ibenik), and most of the Dalmatian islands, except Arbe (Rab) and BraÄ.
  
• The districts of Vipava, Idrija and Ilirska Bistrica in the Austrian Duchy of Carniola.
  
• The townships of Pontebba (Pontafel) and Malborghetto Valbruna (Malborgeth-Wolfsbach) in the Austrian Duchy of Carinthia.
  
• The Dodecanese Islands (held by Italy since 1912)
  
• The port of Vlorë in Albania
  
• A protectorate over Albania ("Italy should be entrusted with the task of representing the State of Albania in its relations with Foreign Powers").
  
• Parts of the German colonies in Asia and Africa[2]
  
• In the event of the partition of Turkey, Italy "ought to obtain a just share of the Mediterranean region adjacent to the province of Adalia"
  

• 
  

In a parallel secret agreement in 1915 (not including France) United Kingdom promised Italy in addition to compensations vague in Africa, specifically the acquisition of Abyssinia (Ethiopia).

The Kingdom of Serbia, which was not present nor a signatory, was assigned:

The Dalmatian coast between the Krka and Stagno (Ston), including the Sabbioncello peninsula (PeljeÅ¡ac), the port of Split, and the island of Brazza (BraÄ).

The Kingdom of Montenegro, which was not present nor a signatory, was assigned:

The Dalmatian coast between Budua (Budva) and Stagno (Ston), including Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and Bocche di Cattaro (Boka Kotorska), but without the Sabbioncello (Pelješac) peninsula;

The coast south to the Albanian port of Shengjin (San Giovanni di Medua).

Also, but less precisely, Serbia was assigned:

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Srem

BaÄka

Slavonia (against Italian objections)

Some unspecified areas of Albania (to be divided among Serbia, Montenegro, and Greece).

After the war British and French leaders refused to fulfil all the promises in the pact. The irredentist nationalist element of Italy considered this an inexcusable betrayal by these two European allies. The colonial gains by Britain and France from the war further angered the Italians, who felt excluded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_%281915%29

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londoner_Vertrag_%281915%29

--> In 1918, Croatia did leave the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy. Italian troops started with the occupation of parts of Croatia on the east coast of the Adria. The areas were promised for annexation in the London Treaty 1915.

As a result Croatia did at once decide at the end of 1918 to unify with the Kingdom of Serbia, the Kingdom was officially called the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. In 1929, after a coup the Kingdom Yugoslavia was proclaimed.

My Question about it:

Does that mean, without the Treaty of London in 1915 with the promises of partitions and annexions, the Kingdom of S-C-S and later the Kingdom of Yugoslavia would not have been exist ?

Or were there plans already for such a unification, which had no influence on the italian purposes and the territorial promises for the serbs and the effects of the treaty by Great Britain/allies ?

Edited July 24, 2015 by oxmox

[icebreakr 3159]

Slovenia tried to screw over Croatia again. This time they manipulated the EU commission that was tasked to judge where exactly the sea-border between the countries is.

What can you expect from Alpserbs... oh wait =) j/k does it really matter as Slovenians have bought over 150,000 houses in Istria region alone according to research. Where I currently live (Krk) I can hear more Slovenian language than in my hometown in NW of Slovenia ;) hehe

What is funny is that local guys are tired of seaside and love to spend time up in the mountains and ski in Slovenia & Austria ;)

[Tonci87 163]

Very interesting question oxmox! The Panslavist movement was at that time very popular amongst the Jugoslavian elites so I think the Jugoslavian kingdom would have been created anyway. Maybe it might have even worked if Serbian nationalists didn't try so damn hard to turn it into a Serbian empire.

The Italians always wanted control over the coastal regions of Croatia, that the Ustasha government in WW2 handed them over to Italy was a big reason why the common people stoped supporting them.

@Ice Well it's not the first time Slovenia tried to rip off Croatia, but using and manipulating EU institutions sure is a whole new level of criminal spirit. A real shame. Croatia and Slovenia could be such great partners...

Edited July 25, 2015 by Tonci87

[Degman 73]

US, UK and Germany won't participate in the anniversary of Croatian military's Operation "Storm"

 

 

The potential cancellation on the part of the Britons, German and Americans comes after Serbian Foreign Minister Ivica Dacic last week said Belgrade will take a hostile view of the participation of any foreign soldiers in the parade.

 

“We will follow with full attention who joins the parade in honour of the Storm action, during which thousands of Serbs were killed and expelled," he said.

"We will consider it an anti-Serbian stance,†he stated, adding that Serbia had been criticised for taking part in the parade in Moscow marking the defeat of Nazi Germany in May.

While visiting Knin on Monday, Grabar Kitarovic claimed the local Serbian community was being included in the central ceremony in the town.

 

“Serbs from Knin will participate in the celebration and we want to emphasize that the celebration is not directed against anyone, but is exclusively a celebration of what our soldiers have done for us,†she stated, adding that they secured freedom for all Croatian citizens.

 

Operation Storm took place shortly after the Bosnian Serb massacre of Bosniaks in Srebrenica, eastern Bosnia, in 1995, with the covert blessing of the US, which sought a speedy end to years of warfare in the former Yugoslavia.

The wars in Bosnia and Croatia ended shortly afterwards. The Dayton Accords, terminating the conflict in Bosnia, were signed in November that year.

 

What an unexpected complications  :rolleyes:

[Tonci87 163]

Who needs them anyway (the americans were there by the way)? This is a celebration for all Croatian citizens of all ethnic backgrounds and especially for the war veterans and their families. Without this Operation the war would have draged on for much longer and cost much more lives. Have a nice Victory day!

There was a large military parade (the largest in Croatia since 1997) in Zagreb yesterday.

Some pics and videos here

www.Danpobjede.hrt.hr

And this here

Parades were also held in almost every other town in Croatia, like here in Split

(wich confused the hell out of the tourists when suddenly men in uniforms started to appear everywhere, Mi-8 helicopters did flybys, destroyers and gunboats paraded along the shore, sirens...)

Festivities will continue today with a ceremony in Knin and a whole range of smaller celebrations across almost all towns in Croatia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Truly shamefull. While someone apologizes for their war crimes, someone else is proud of them so much so that he throws a parade.

You're celebrating the operation in which 3000 civilians were killed or missing, and 220000 expelled from their homes. Talk about double standards.

It's a single largest ethnic cleansing operation since ww2.

[Tonci87 163]

Truly shamefull. While someone apologizes for their war crimes, someone else is proud of them so much so that he throws a parade.

You're celebrating the operation in which 3000 civilians were killed or missing, and 220000 expelled from their homes. Talk about double standards.

It's a single largest ethnic cleansing operation since ww2.

LOL please don't repeat the numbers thrown around in Serbian media they are highly exagerated. Croatian and international investigations have come to the conclusion that around 600 to 700 civilians died during the operation wich is a ridiculously small number when you consider the size and scope of the operation and the size of the territory it covered. Serbian sources are the only ones throwing around those large numbers...

By the way quite a few civilian deaths can he contributed to the RSK and RS troops. The Serbian command was very keen on getting the heavy weapons out of Croatia before the Croatian military could catch up to them. If civilian refugee coloums were in the way they had to be dealt with. And so it happened that one civilian refugee coloumn was crushed under the tracks of a tank coloumn while in other cases fighter jets strafed refugees to get them off the roads.

Do you know that In '92 there were almost 400000 registered people in Croatia that had been forced to abandon their homes by the Serbian agressors? That is not counting all those that had been displaced in Bosnia.

Talking about double standards....

The first shots in that war were fired by Serbs, the first dead was a Croatian, the first cities to be under attack and destroyed were also Croatian.

The first civilians to be displaced and killed were Croatians too.

The Croatian military didn't invade Serbia but Serbia invaded Croatia and destroyed Vukovar. It wasn't the Croatian navy that bombarded Towns from the sea and the air. It wasn't the Croatian military that almost daily fired artillery on all villages and towns it could reach and it wasn't the Croatian military that commited massacres on a scale completelly unimaginable in our modern times. Think about that for a while.

In that war Serbia was the agressor from the very beginning and the Croatian Operation Storm is the natural result of that.

Sadly Serbia is completely unwilling to accept that defeat and acknowledge their own mistakes. They feel the need to invent myths just like the Germans did after WW1 when they too were unwilling to face reality. By the way that was one reason why the Germans were so willing to fight England and France again.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You are obviously not following here. This was a single operation expelling 220k people in a couple of days. The total amount of refugees in the whole war is much higher off course. Also I said 3000 civilians killed or MISSING.

 

Are you saying that strafing of refugee columns is something to be celebrated and praised?

All those Croats that moved, were inside Croatia, and later when the fighting stopped they came back, while during Oluja Croats simply concluded that they left the houses to them. You still have people with unresolved living situations.

 

The first shots were fired when Croats and Slovenians started attacking the retreating columns of JNA.

Then the Croatian "government" excluded all Serbs from the state apparatus and removed Serb status as constitutional people.

 

In the area of Knin the Serbs were a majority, and Croatia had no right to claim that land, besides some artificially created lines during the communist era.

 

Even IF the Serbs started everything, even IF we were an aggressor killing innocent Croats, even IF we banished hundreds of thousands of Croats (which is ridiculous and has no base in reality), Do two wrongs make a right? Is that wrong so right that you have to make a parade out of it? 

 

Let's talk about acknowledging own mistakes. As I seem to remember our prime minister went to Srebrenica to pay respect, when he was greeted with stones. I don't remember Izetbegovic being stoned in Belgrade. Did any muslim go and pay respect to 3000 innocent Serbs killed by the gang from Srebrenica? Have Croats ever said they're sorry for kicking hundreds of thousands from their homes, or for murdering 700000 Serbs in WW2?

[Tonci87 163]

You are obviously not following here. This was a single operation expelling 220k people in a couple of days. The total amount of refugees in the whole war is much higher off course. Also I said 3000 civilians killed or MISSING.

 

Are you saying that strafing of refugee columns is something to be celebrated and praised?

All those Croats that moved, were inside Croatia, and later when the fighting stopped they came back, while during Oluja Croats simply concluded that they left the houses to them. You still have people with unresolved living situations.

 

The first shots were fired when Croats and Slovenians started attacking the retreating columns of JNA.

Then the Croatian "government" excluded all Serbs from the state apparatus and removed Serb status as constitutional people.

 

In the area of Knin the Serbs were a majority, and Croatia had no right to claim that land, besides some artificially created lines during the communist era.

 

Even IF the Serbs started everything, even IF we were an aggressor killing innocent Croats, even IF we banished hundreds of thousands of Croats (which is ridiculous and has no base in reality), Do two wrongs make a right? Is that wrong so right that you have to make a parade out of it? 

 

Let's talk about acknowledging own mistakes. As I seem to remember our prime minister went to Srebrenica to pay respect, when he was greeted with stones. I don't remember Izetbegovic being stoned in Belgrade. Did any muslim go and pay respect to 3000 innocent Serbs killed by the gang from Srebrenica? Have Croats ever said they're sorry for kicking hundreds of thousands from their homes, or for murdering 700000 Serbs in WW2?

Oh you missunderstood me, it was Serbian planes strafing their own refugees in order to make room for their fleeing soldiers and heavy weapons.

Yes over 200k people fled the Krajina, however the Croatian military didn't have that much to do with it. Preparations for that began months earlier. 3 months before OP storm the leader of the RSK Serbs wrote a letter to Milosevic telling him that they were packing up if they don't receive more help from Belgrade. Days before the Operation RSK leadership told the population to prepare for evacuation. On the day of the OP a general evacuation order was issued to Serbian civilians and as is evident by testimonies from Serbian refugees their own military made sure that everybody is leaving. The war propaganda helped a lot in that. Serbian civilians were generally afraid of the Croatian military because they were told that the evil fashist Ustashi would kill them all and on top of that almost every family had relatives that would have been arrested for war crimes. It's a common theme during the war that Serbian civians would flee as soon as their troops pulled back long before Croatian troops would reach them.

Why were Serbs excluded from the state apparatus? Maybe because there was a ridiculously large number of them in high pisitions? People were fed up with the Serbian rule and opression of Croats in their own land. The cobstitutional change was simply that Croatia wasn't defined as a nation of Croats, Serbs and other minorities anymore. Now it was a nation of Croats and other minorities.

Knin is an ancient Croatian royal town, an important part of Croatian history. The Serbs could have lived on there, inside Croatia and nobody would have bothered them, but no, they were obsessed with that idea of a greater Serbia and motivated by Belgrade propaganda and military help decided to take up arms and kill police officers.

OP Oluja was as justified as it can be.

[Degman 73]

Even IF the Serbs started everything, even IF we were an aggressor killing innocent Croats, even IF we banished hundreds of thousands of Croats (which is ridiculous and has no base in reality), Do two wrongs make a right? Is that wrong so right that you have to make a parade out of it? 

 

Let's talk about acknowledging own mistakes. As I seem to remember our prime minister went to Srebrenica to pay respect, when he was greeted with stones. I don't remember Izetbegovic being stoned in Belgrade. Did any muslim go and pay respect to 3000 innocent Serbs killed by the gang from Srebrenica? Have Croats ever said they're sorry for kicking hundreds of thousands from their homes, or for murdering 700000 Serbs in WW2?

 

Excuse me, but how exactly is it wrong to liberate your land occupied by armed terrorists that wants to separate contradictionary to the Constitution of Yugoslavia and common sense ? To prevent another genocide in Bihać ? To put the end on war ? Please explain us, but without because-we're-Serbs-with-privileges-holy-nation-bullcrap. 

So, it's okay that 400.000 Croats were displaced ? Just because they were displaced from Croatia in another parts of Croatia ? Really ? Why would you not let me come over there and kick your ass from your house and just put you in some other Serbian settlement. You will still be in Serbia, you know, so it's not a crime. Also, I highly doubt that the Srpska paramilitary would ever want to return these Croats in their homes if they won a war of separation. They were in able to return as soon as terrorist forces (yeah, they fit that term very well by all the standards) were forced to retreat in the Operation Storm.

I see you still believe in one million of Serbian victims in WW2, which is ridicilous even for lunatic persons. I see you also connect us to them, as well as our country, which is also ridicilous.

 

Better dead than read, is it not ?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Excuse me, but how exactly is it wrong to liberate your land occupied by armed terrorists that wants to separate contradictionary to the Constitution of Yugoslavia and common sense ? To prevent another genocide in Bihać ? To put the end on war ? Please explain us, but without because-we're-Serbs-with-privileges-holy-nation-bullcrap. 

So, it's okay that 400.000 Croats were displaced ? Just because they were displaced from Croatia in another parts of Croatia ? Really ? Why would you not let me come over there and kick your ass from your house and just put you in some other Serbian settlement. You will still be in Serbia, you know, so it's not a crime. Also, I highly doubt that the Srpska paramilitary would ever want to return these Croats in their homes if they wont a war for separation. They were in able to return as soon as terrorist forces (yeah, they fit that term very well by all the standards) were forced to retreat in the Operation Storm.

I see you still believe in one million of Serbian victims in WW2, which is ridicilous even for lunatic persons. I see you also connect us to them, as well as our country, which is also ridicilous.

 

Better dead than read, is it not ?

 

I said that those Croats that were displaced in Croatia latter came back when the fighting stopped. The Serbs weren't given a chance to. Their property was seized by the state of Croatia (how's that liberating?).

Are you justifying the cleansing with "well maybe they would organize another genocide if we don't stop them"?

What right did Croatia have to the land in which the Serbs were a majority, they have the right of self determination too, don't they? What can you say that possibly justifies the expelling of 220k civilians, seizing their property and not allowing them to come back? 

[aleksadragutin 9]

Oh you missunderstood me, it was Serbian planes strafing their own refugees in order to make room for their fleeing soldiers and heavy weapons.

Yes over 200k people fled the Krajina, however the Croatian military didn't have that much to do with it. Preparations for that began months earlier. 3 months before OP storm the leader of the RSK Serbs wrote a letter to Milosevic telling him that they were packing up if they don't receive more help from Belgrade. Days before the Operation RSK leadership told the population to prepare for evacuation. On the day of the OP a general evacuation order was issued to Serbian civilians and as is evident by testimonies from Serbian refugees their own military made sure that everybody is leaving. The war propaganda helped a lot in that. Serbian civilians were generally afraid of the Croatian military because they were told that the evil fashist Ustashi would kill them all and on top of that almost every family had relatives that would have been arrested for war crimes. It's a common theme during the war that Serbian civians would flee as soon as their troops pulled back long before Croatian troops would reach them.

Why were Serbs excluded from the state apparatus? Maybe because there was a ridiculously large number of them in high pisitions? People were fed up with the Serbian rule and opression of Croats in their own land. The cobstitutional change was simply that Croatia wasn't defined as a nation of Croats, Serbs and other minorities anymore. Now it was a nation of Croats and other minorities.

Knin is an ancient Croatian royal town, an important part of Croatian history. The Serbs could have lived on there, inside Croatia and nobody would have bothered them, but no, they were obsessed with that idea of a greater Serbia and motivated by Belgrade propaganda and military help decided to take up arms and kill police officers.

OP Oluja was as justified as it can be.

 

Before you pull any more info out of your ass, Croatias borders were drawn up artificially regardless of majorities or minorities, same as Crimea which was always Russian and has a Russian majority was artificially joined to Ukraine.

Skadar is also an old Serbian town, does that mean we have the right to invade it and chase of the Albanians living there now? 

 

Are you saying that there were no attack on retreating columns of Serbian civilians?

 

You are well known for pushing the "they just packed up and left, our operation had nothing to do with it".

[Tonci87 163]

Let's use the opportunity and see what Milosevic the great leader of the Serbs had to say about OP Storm.

During a meeting with the military leadership he accused the RSK leaders of cowardice ("they ran like rabbits") and critiqued the RSK army that they hadn't been able to hold Knin for half a day when "they had all means to do so".

He was unwilling to send the JNA into Croatia out of fear that he will provoke a NATO reaction wich might lead to Serbia loosing the Vojvodina, Sanđak, Boka and Kosovo. Also the Serbian military had been giving so much aid to the RS and RSK troops that the JNA only had supplies for up to six days of war left. He was furious about the "defeating and humiliating situation, that all the help the RSK received ended up arming the Croatian army"

He concluded:

"If on that day we really would have commited the idiotic stupidity of helping them, who would have been able to reach Knin by evening? There was no way of reaching it because of their coloumns with witch they blocked all roads in their mindless rout, together with their population.

Please 6000 Croats (exagerated number) dedefended Vukovar half a year; The whole first army was attacking, the airforce, astonishing, all the might of the JNA, but they (RSK troops) couldn't defend Knin, wich can only be approached from three directions; they couldn't even hold it for 12 hours?"

[Degman 73]

I said that those Croats that were displaced in Croatia latter came back when the fighting stopped. The Serbs weren't given a chance to. Their property was seized by the state of Croatia (how's that liberating?).

Are you justifying the cleansing with "well maybe they would organize another genocide if we don't stop them"?

What right did Croatia have to the land in which the Serbs were a majority, they have the right of self determination too, don't they? What can you say that possibly justifies the expelling of 220k civilians, seizing their property and not allowing them to come back? 

No, they don't have a right on self-determination. At all. They were and still are just Croatian citizens living in there, no matter if majority or minority in some areas. Following your non-sense claims, every region should be in able to become an independent state based on it's ethnic background. Also, killing and displacing other ethnic groups during it is not nice. 

Let's cut the crap.

Croatia had a constitutional right to separate from SFRY and become an independent state. As a matter of fact, we never tried to leave SFRY, but together with Slovenians, Macedonians and Bosniaks we tried to convert it into confederation so that we become isolated from MiloÅ¡ević, Å eÅ¡elj and their partners policy, outside their influence. However, countries would stay united the similar way the US are. 

Unfortunately, Milošević could not even think of it and then he started to threaten us with the military force and "rivers of blood" that will happen if we try to resist him.

 

We didn't fear him and his super-cool Yugo (Serb-Montenegro) People's Army so we naturally did what was the best for us - and we separated completely. Our territory defence was already robbed during Milošević's leadership and all the heavy weapons were stationed in Serbia and Montenegro. Yet another example of his authoritarian regime. As the referendum was held, he armed local Serbs and told them that NDH and Ustashies are back to cut their necks. So aggression of YPA and terrorism from Srpska has began. Everything during 1990s was just an answer on that.

[R0adki11 3949]

@all please be mindful of the forum rules when posting on this forum, failure to do so will result in the appropriate action. If users of this thread can't discuss topics in a constructive manner - this thread will be closed.