Women in uniform

[GodofGunnies 0]

I didn't say women weren't ever in combat. I said they aren't supposed to be. They can be, in support roles. But it's almost like a "Chance into it" thing.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 07 2002,00:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't say women weren't ever in combat.  I said they aren't supposed to be.  They can be, in support roles.  But it's almost like a "Chance into it" thing.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually you said, and I quote:

"Women are not, have not, and I pray to God will not be in Combat for the US."

While certainly some ended up in combat just due to chance, the fact is that female soldiers in the United States Army are often put into units that have a high probability of engaging in combat. Combat Engineers are also definitely front line combat units. So those females in those units will definitely see action unless they are ordered off the front lines.

Whatever the case, I think that it's completely fine if anyone wants to make some addons with female American soldiers and female resistance fighters. Like Major Fubar I believe said, "if you don't like it, don't download it". The fact remains that many people would like to add in female soldiers. What role they play in the game is totally up to the imagination of the mission writer.

Plus there are more the a few women who play this game and who would probably really like to play a female soldier to kick some ass with.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[GodofGunnies 0]

Well, in that light, have at it. I just want to say though, that whoever makes this damn thing better make it like one of those face addons. Cause I don't wanna end up getting kicked off servers without knowing why, and the reason end up being I didn't have a "necessary" addon.

Does this mean, though, that we get to use the phrase "You got beat up by a girl"?

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 07 2002,01:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, in that light, have at it.  I just want to say though, that whoever makes this damn thing better make it like one of those face addons.  Cause I don't wanna end up getting kicked off servers without knowing why, and the reason end up being I didn't have a "necessary" addon.

Does this mean, though, that we get to use the phrase "You got beat up by a girl"?<span id='postcolor'>

Hehehe! Yup I guess so. But seriously I doubt female unit addons will get used much in MP games unless BIS makes them an official release. But actually coming from Delta Force Land Warrior and Delta Force 2 ( FPS games made by Novalogic) it was surprising how many male players chose the female characters. In DF2 though it was partly done to combat cheating, but in DFLW I guess it's mainly done just to have a different set of voices (the female characters have some really cool preset lines that you can get them to yell).

Chris G.

[Kermit 0]

While I am against the idea of integrating female soldiers in Operation Flashpoint and do get pissed at feminists ("We can fight too!"  That is not at all the point, woman), I must say that Operation Flashpoint does need official female models.  Actually, they already have Angelina.  The problem is that you cannot stick custom faces on the Angelina model, or use it for your character unless the mission designer put that model in the game.  What Bohemia Interactive Studios should do is, along with the voice option and face option, include a sex option.  This will determine whether your character will have the male model or the female model.  I think that a new female model (one not wearing a dress) should be used in place of Angelina, though.  Female custom faces would have to be done differently than the male ones, but you could use Angelina's face for a base.  And of course female voices would be needed to go along with the new female models and official faces.

I think that it would be a good idea to do that if it would not take resources that could be better spent on other things, and that if it is done it should only be used for multiplayer and for civilian roles in the campaigns (and of course for twisted mission designers that want to...never mind).

In multiplayer, a petite feminine figure may make it unfair but how is it unrealistic?  In real life, petite women would be harder to hit than a big man (imagine that).  If you really want female models that are designed to be soldiers, then they should have the butch physique of soldiers.  However, I think it would be best for multiplayer to just take civilian female models, stick your female face on it, and play.

As for the psychological effects in a war, I would have less difficulty in shooting a pretty, pretite woman with an attitude and a gun (I'm not talking about your realistic woman soldier, I'm talking about the Alice type that some people picture when they think of female soldiers) than I would shooting a male soldier or your average uninteresting-looking woman soldier.  There's something about that Lara Croft steriotype who tries to mix sex and combat that just begs for a bullet to put a stop to the charade.

Now, I do like Alice, but that is because it is not in-your-face like Tomb Raider's "Look at me, I'm a woman with a sexy figure and a ridiculous bust and I'm shooting things!"  Guys swoon all over the world.

Besides, Alice has a better British accent.

[Guest BratZ]

I agree that woman soldier models should be considered (there is already females in the game,but not soldier models)

Its right up there on the priority list...right below some new frag grenades

Ha Ha I'm just picking

Maybe it would get more of the female crowd playing the game.I live in the US and females are in the military and it's been 18 years since I was in but back then females didn't get the same training,doubt thats the case today

Even tho the game is based around 1985,WW2 items are being made and it does open up mission capabilities, just like the civi cars and such people just don't understand.

I am all for a GI Jane model, altho I am not at all impressed about a girl doing male duties (war and death and surviving)

After all ,men usually are fighting the war for thier wife and families at home.But nevertheless someone should make this ,among several other things I would like.

[Major Fubar 0]

I've got a friend who always used to take a female character when we played Rogue Spear or Delta Force...he said it was so we could identify him more easily, but I always had my suspicions...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Seriously guys, this argument has gone completely beyond where it needed to go. She wants a female soldier model for a GAME, not a diatribe on why women shouldn't be allowed in combat. I swear, guys who come in here asking for Star Wars addons get more respect than this...

[miles teg 1]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 07 2002,119)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seriously guys, this argument has gone completely beyond where it needed to go. She wants a female soldier model for a GAME, not a diatribe on why women shouldn't be allowed in combat. I swear, guys who come in here asking for Star Wars addons get more respect than this...<span id='postcolor'>

I agree....at any rate most of those making those assumptions have not ever done actual military combat training with competent female soldiers.  They are out there.  Some females are bad at it and shouldn't be allowed to do it, but the bottom line is that there are some female soldiers out there that I've seen kick serious ass by being able to pass the male standard PT scores (in some cases max the male scores) and who were able to handle the combat training very well.

To not allow such women (who meet very high physical endurance criteria) to prove themselves in combat is I believe just ignorance.  Kinda like how blacks had to prove themselves in combat because they were thought to be useless except as cooks and quartermaster type soldiers.

As for size, there are plenty of small guys, me being one of them.  But that's an advantage in modern combat.  A big 6ft+ 250lb body builder type looks a lot better in uniform and are stronger (although not always in endurance), but he's just a bigger (and more noticeable) target to shoot at and can't hide in bushes or holes as easily.  

I guess the real fear of men is that women may someday kick our asses around and become the dominant sex...but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon unless evolution speeds up really quick.  Deviation in normal female genetics happen all the time which is why you occasionally get "butch" women for the same reasons why sometimes you get very feminine men, if not in body then in mind.  However they sometimes tend to be lesbian and thus don't reproduce and thus don't pass on those genetics.  Those that aren't Lesbian, if they have a man-like body, they may often have trouble finding a mate.  Then there are those who look beautiful and fight beautifully.  (The stereotypical Laura Croft image).  Those types are rare in my experience, but they do exist.  Those are the ones that scare the hell out of men.

With that said most female soldiers I've seen are just average looking however most do their jobs reasonably well with only a small percentage that cause problems.

But if "butch" can shoot well, and fight well, then I say,

"You Go Girl!!!"  

LOL!

Hopefully there will be some girls with guns in OFP.  As far as just using a civy model, they can't hold crap for weapons (can't even hold a rocket launcher) and they don't have uniforms.  

But does anyone know the # of the angelina face or any of the other female faces so that they can just be stuck on a male soldiers body.  This actually is not all that unrealistic, because sometimes in those baggy uniforms it's hard to tell if a soldier is male or female.  Someone posted a picture of how you can change out the faces but failed to give the face#. If anyone knows how to do that please post it.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Kermit 0]

That is why I also posted my thoughts on the original subject (with respect, I may add.  I even partially agreed).  The person who brought up the issue of women in combat was supporting it, I believe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then there are those who look beautiful and fight beautifully.  Those types are rare in my experience, but they do exist.  Those are the ones that scare the hell out of men. <span id='postcolor'>

And quite probably that is the reason I (and, I suspect, quite a few others) would have an easier time killing a girl like that than I would killing your average military woman or a male soldier.  Humans as well as animals tend to hate what they fear, even when it is subconscious.  But enough self-psychoanalysis.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">does anyone know the # of the angelina face or any of the other female faces so that they can just be stuck on a male soldiers body.  This actually is not all that unrealistic, because sometimes in those baggy uniforms it's hard to tell if a soldier is male or female.  Someone posted a picture of this but failed to give the face#. <span id='postcolor'>

Angelina's face cannot be used on a male soldiers body, from what I have heard.  Besides, if you want to use a female face on the standard soldier, I am sure you can find some for download, or you could have someone create one for you.

[joltan 0]

Just one small bit of information: the German army (Bundeswehr) has female recruits in his paratroper units (Fallschirmspringer). Until a few years ago women were only allowed in non-combat units - but some wanted to join the combat units, sued the governement at the European Court and won. They are not conscripts, but professional soldiers. Also the Israely army and other militaries have women in combat units. So whatever is the case with the US army, there's enough examples from western societies, where women in combat units are a reality.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kermit @ Oct. 07 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why I also posted my thoughts on the original subject (with respect, I may add.  I even partially agreed).  The person who brought up the issue of women in combat was supporting it, I believe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then there are those who look beautiful and fight beautifully.  Those types are rare in my experience, but they do exist.  Those are the ones that scare the hell out of men. <span id='postcolor'>

And quite probably that is the reason I (and, I suspect, quite a few others) would have an easier time killing a girl like that than I would killing your average military woman or a male soldier.  Humans as well as animals hate what they fear, even when it is subconscious.  But enough of my twisted self-psychoanalysis.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">does anyone know the # of the angelina face or any of the other female faces so that they can just be stuck on a male soldiers body.  This actually is not all that unrealistic, because sometimes in those baggy uniforms it's hard to tell if a soldier is male or female.  Someone posted a picture of this but failed to give the face#. <span id='postcolor'>

Angelina's face cannot be used on a male soldiers body, from what I have heard.  Besides, if you want to use a female face on the standard soldier, I am sure you can find plenty for download.<span id='postcolor'>

Possibly. But don't make the mistake of thinking that most soldiers have an equal loathing for pretty women in uniform. Most men also love gorgeous looking women as well.

However in combat, personally I'd shoot any enemy soldier who's shooting at me regardless if it's a man, woman, or even a child. If they decided that they can kill, then they can die.

So it's all the same. But I would feel bad about seeing some good looking lady's corpse that I just blew the hell out, same as I would seeing a dead child soldier. But taking any human life is a horrible thing to have to do and that nobody should wish to be able to do. OFP is fun for me because it's just a game. But in actual training with live people, you sober up quickly when you realize that it's real people with real families who would die on both sides if it was actual combat. In combat is where professionalism and duty push you to do the things that you must do and do well to avoid losing your own life and/or the lives of your fellow soldiers. In other words a good soldier never hestitates to shoot someone shooting at them no matter who's in the enemy's uniform.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Uziyahu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Sep. 30 2002,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, you have to consider that women were not allowed in the combat units of many a nations armed forces back in the early to mid eighties. Even today, women are barred from entering into any combat role in the U.S. Army. So it would be unrealistic to see U.S. women fighting in Uniform.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, you have to consider that women were not allowed in the combat units of many a nations armed forces back in the early to mid eighties. Even today, women are barred from entering into any combat role in the U.S. Army. So it would be unrealistic to see U.S. women fighting in Uniform.

<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, the unit in the 1985 campaign seems to be a Reserve or Guard unit, which makes perfect sense, as they (surprisingly! are usually the ones to follow the initial deployment of Rangers, Marines, SEALs, Special Forces, Delta, and Airborne Infantry. Even if it was a combat-deployable unit, it is still possible to have females "attached" to your unit for support roles. A current Army UH-60 pilot friend of mine agrees that the invisible chicks in the 1985 scenario would be issued ammo for their rifles and be sent out to meet the enemy or to at least guard the base in the rear. Female aviators would be in the skies.

The peace-time military is wussier than the war-time military, and when the shi'ite hits the fan, the rules change for the sake of "field expediency".

You don't seem more female soldiers in OFP probably for the same reason you don't see Claymore Mines (which aren't really anti-personnel mines, but remotely-detonated anti-personnel munitions, i.e., there is a human behind the trigger!. Doncha just love revisionist history? BLAH!

[Uziyahu 0]

Balancing Female Soldier Models

1)  They're smaller, thus present less of a target.

2)  They're also slower, not able to run as quickly.

3)  They're weaker, not able to carry as many items or as much ammo (if you have rucksacks or mountain packs).  Recoil is more pronounced in burst and full-auto weapon modes.

4)  They have less endurance.  They'll tire more quickly.

5)  They have a higher tolerance for pain.  They can take more hits and still function, but how this would affect their morale is another issue.

6)  A.I. should be tweaked so that they "bug out" and run away more easily.  Females make good snipers because snipers get to choose their battles and their shots, aside from the fact that women seem to be better shots.

7)  Decreased A.I. leadership abilities, at least in a military environment.  Without cracking on women, you still have to deal with the fact that a predominantly male force is going to respond to the leadership of a male more than a female.  (Joan of Arc had the benefit of peasant-inspiring folklore.)

[These are the observations of 3 years in the United States Army at the tail end of the Cold War, during the Ronnie Ray-gun era. You would have heard FAR worse from most male soldiers in 1989.]

[Uziyahu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cassandra @ Oct. 06 2002,18:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 06 2002,187)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want females, make 'em butch.  Not as a sexist thing, but as a fairness issue<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, I'm sure rigorous military training would build on body structure anyway.. and don't forget, a basic military uniform is not skin tight, atleast I don't think so.

I'm no expert on such things.. but I'm not oblivious either.<span id='postcolor'>

My experience with rigorous military training was that it made me lean, hence "lean, mean fightin' machine".

Some soldiers body-build, but I've heard it said that if you build yourself to the point that you can't fit into a standard-issue uniform, you might be disciplined. And, of course, no using steroids in the military.

There was an Airborne-qualified Lieutenant Fitness Instructor at Fort Ben Harrison in 1986. "Hooper Paratrooper" She was a fabulously feminine-looking blonde. So, even if you're "rigorously trained" (Airborne school is no cakewalk, I understand) the end result could still be exquisitely doable.

Yes, B.D.U.'s (Battle Dress Uniforms) do hide the form SOMEWHAT. But a female bending over in BDU pants looks infinitely better than one of your squad members doing toe-touches. And walking around in your brown T-shirt is not unheard of, especially if it is hot. Femininity is hard to hide in a sweaty t-shirt.

[Major Fubar 0]

New female units don't need to be pinup girls or catwalk models, but they don't need to be like female Eastern Block shotputters either! Surely there is some middle ground to get a normal female body type...pretty much like the ingame female models introduced in OFP:R, just in fatigues and combat gear...

[Uziyahu 0]

SORRY! I meant for those to be LINKS!

[Placebo 29]

Uzi please try again, and next time do not hotlink any images over 100kb

[Uziyahu 0]

Argh! I was a split-second away from having them edited to links!

[Placebo 29]

Sorry , just with the time difference between the original post and the time I posted I figured you weren't bothering

[Uziyahu 0]

Women in the Israeli Military

Spetznaz Chick

Spetznaz Chick 3

Spetznaz Chick 4

Spetznaz Chicks

Spetznaz Chicks 2

Czech Army Babe 1

Czech Army Babe 2

Iza Czarnecka 1

Iza Czarnecka in Polish Camo

Iza Czarnecka in Polish Camo 2

German Cop with MP5A2

Swedish Police Officer

Korean SWAT Team member with MSG90

Aye Chihuahua!  Mexican National Policewoman with HK53 in hot mode!

Meg Ryan in "Courage Under Fire"...Now THAT is a Nomex Flight Suit!

Meg Ryan in "Courage Under Fire" (Clean, This time)

Meg Ryan with Crewchief?

Meg Ryan with Lesser-Known Matt Damon (Nomex with Survival Vest!

Meg, Even Cleaner

Hey, a real Flight Helmet!

Go Ahead, Make My Day, Raghead!

"I Wonder if You Could Use a Fuel Blivet as an Anti-Armour Incendiary Device..."

Had trouble finding pics of Sean Young from "Fire Birds" in her cute little flight suit...

Now how many of you would instinctively blast one of these babes if they had the business end of their weapons pointed at you?  I think most of us would pause long enough for them to riddle us with lead.

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Uziyahu @ Oct. 07 2002,17:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Go Ahead, Make My Day, Raghead!<span id='postcolor'>

Racial epithets, of which I consider that to be, are not tolerated on the forums.

Any repeat will result in a permanent ban.

[cassandra 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cassandra @ Sep. 30 2002,14:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what ofp really lacks are females in uniform (not rags and leather or pvc outfits).. there seem to be some nice models released with resistance.. though they're civilians.

is anyone upto actually making an addon with female troops with proper military uniforms? some military forces do actually have females in real life.. and they don't dress like lara croft or some b-grade porn actress.<span id='postcolor'>

that was my original post.

it's almost depressing that instead of seeing near all posts regarding models, I also see ignorant generalisations and stereotypical psychological analysis of what people 'think' we are like as a whole.

I never intended for this to be a hot debate on wether 'babes' and so forth are allowed to do this, that or the other. it was just a request.

I've also seen alot of intelligent comments regarding the game and real life that focus on the original post itself. these people don't need a thankyou or commendation on using their brain, I expect this.

as much as women today find this kind of sexism in an occupation, it doesn't need to be here also. I can't moderate what I have seen here nor would I want to after seeing what has been posted.. why people just don't open their minds to the possibility that we're all intelligent human beings capable of anything we put our minds to is beyond me. I could say something stupid like "the only reason females are not is because of a males incapacity to restrain himself" (I don't beleive this by the way, it's merely an example of stupidity from another viewpoint), but that is just not the point.. we are talking about a game here and has nothing what so ever to do with operation flashpoint and the possibilities within.

if the reader does not want to discuss actual models then just forget I even asked. this is the 'addons & mods' section, not the great debate on half the human population.

please, no more stupid comments.

I'm wondering if there are even modmakers in this forum who have taken interest in these kind of models, afterall it is them who would be doing such a thing (thankyou if you have). I hope there are when it comes to the initial topic/request and I would still love to have such an addon as I'm sure many others would too.

[GodofGunnies 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Oct. 07 2002,12:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 07 2002,11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seriously guys, this argument has gone completely beyond where it needed to go. She wants a female soldier model for a GAME, not a diatribe on why women shouldn't be allowed in combat. I swear, guys who come in here asking for Star Wars addons get more respect than this...<span id='postcolor'>

I agree....at any rate most of those making those assumptions have not ever done actual military combat training with competent female soldiers.  They are out there.  Some females are bad at it and shouldn't be allowed to do it, but the bottom line is that there are some female soldiers out there that I've seen kick serious ass by being able to pass the male standard PT scores (in some cases max the male scores) and who were able to handle the combat training very well.

To not allow such women (who meet very high physical endurance criteria) to prove themselves in combat is I believe just ignorance.  Kinda like how blacks had to prove themselves in combat because they were thought to be useless except as cooks and quartermaster type soldiers.

As for size, there are plenty of small guys, me being one of them.  But that's an advantage in modern combat.  A big 6ft+ 250lb body builder type looks a lot better in uniform and are stronger (although not always in endurance), but he's just a bigger (and more noticeable) target to shoot at and can't hide in bushes or holes as easily.  

I guess the real fear of men is that women may someday kick our asses around and become the dominant sex...but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon unless evolution speeds up really quick.  Deviation in normal female genetics happen all the time which is why you occasionally get "butch" women for the same reasons why sometimes you get very feminine men, if not in body then in mind.  However they sometimes tend to be lesbian and thus don't reproduce and thus don't pass on those genetics.  Those that aren't Lesbian, if they have a man-like body, they may often have trouble finding a mate.  Then there are those who look beautiful and fight beautifully.  (The stereotypical Laura Croft image).  Those types are rare in my experience, but they do exist.  Those are the ones that scare the hell out of men. <!--emo&

With that said most female soldiers I've seen are just average looking however most do their jobs reasonably well with only a small percentage that cause problems.  

But if "butch" can shoot well, and fight well, then I say,

"You Go Girl!!!"  

LOL!  

Hopefully there will be some girls with guns in OFP.  As far as just using a civy model, they can't hold crap for weapons (can't even hold a rocket launcher) and they don't have uniforms.  

But does anyone know the # of the angelina face or any of the other female faces so that they can just be stuck on a male soldiers body.  This actually is not all that unrealistic, because sometimes in those baggy uniforms it's hard to tell if a soldier is male or female.  Someone posted a picture of how you can change out the faces but failed to give the face#. If anyone knows how to do that please post it.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD><span id='postcolor'>

Now, I already agreed to females in the game. But I will say that my very limited experience with military oriented events (I'm NSCC--Naval Sea Cadet Corps--. Basically an junior Navy. Drill once a month, but I wish it was more. Military life is awesome) has shown me that I am slightly--to my own dismay, as I hate unfairness--sexist when it comes to females in combat. Put 'em in games all you want. But let me say this. It is NOT the physical, shooting, and competence issue. I've met women that topped me in all of those, and I'm damn good at all three. It's the fact that in the military, in ANY situation, problems can arise between men and women. See, what if you were to have, ah, relations with a woman. Whether you're an asshole or not, you become attached in some way. Then that implies favoritism. You wouldn't send her to get killed over other guys, EVEN if she can do the job better. And whether you, personally, could or not is no matter. Not EVERYONE can, without hesitation. Now on the even worse side, what if you guys break up? The shit hits the fan, then. You begin to hate each other, and you're out for blood. Once again. You may be able to control this urge, but I gaurantee somebody in this world WON'T. If it werent for assholes like them, the world would be a better and more eqaul place.

But with all this said and done, I still rather enjoy the prospect of female players actually being able to express themselves, as that is one of the great things this game has always had, with its face customization features and all.

[DracoPaladore 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cassandra @ Sep. 30 2002,14:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">some military forces do actually have females in real life..<span id='postcolor'>

My mother was part of the ordance corp(beans & bullets) in the Canadian Military. I am not sure about the United States or Russian Military. I'll have to ask about that.