Petition to Disqualify Epoch Mod from the MANW Contest

[PuFu 4600]

This. You aren't representing my opinion either. Don't appoint yourself spokesman of all BIS Players

Oh, but i haven't. I stated my own opinions and nothing else. I would never want to appoint myself spokesman for someone who calls himself tacti-cool...

[twisted 128]

Now that I've read more in the Reddit I understand that this is just a case where some server hosters aren't happy that Epoch isn't yet open. If you're that pissed off then just don't try to run the mod and let it be. People just seem to want to get their hands on the source code and do what they want with it.

There's nothing really bad in this case and this is just a personal issue. It seems like the real cancer are the "pissed off part of the Epoch community" that are some blacklisted hosters that tried to run with some stuff that wasn't good for helping alpha/beta mod.

thanks for the insight. Well really that's a pathetic reason for them to try blacklist an original mod (even though my vote if it counts was for RHS) if that's true. especially when there are truly dodgy mods like a3life around which should by all accounts be taken down or avoided like herpes. Seem there's lots of real dubious characters getting in on arma3 scene now. pays to research before going blindly. still reading...

[michaeldcullen 11]

Sorry for the delay replying here, I was completely exhausted last night after I posted this, had been up for like 20+ hours sorting through the shitstorm on Reddit.

Just felt like I should probably clear up a few things and clarify the reasons behind all of this. Firstly, I'm not "a dodgy guy who tries to make money off Arma"; the community I manage has no donator rewards, no item malls, no monetization of anything. Our two dedicated servers are paid for out of the pockets of our community members, who donate if and when they feel it's appropriate to keep things running. I've been in that community for about a year, but it's been going since 2001 doing other (non-BIS) games. Our Arma servers are PVE, not PVP, so "pay to win" or anything like that would be completely pointless.

I'm project lead of the DayZ Evolved team, which is a fork & continuation of DayZ Epoch, with the intention of creating new assets, re-writing old code, and optimizing performance to keep it playable and keep the DZE community alive now that the Epoch developers have moved on to bigger and better things (Arma 3 Epoch). Through this project, I work closely with several prominent mod creators in the DayZ Epoch community, all of whom would LOVE to work on new features for DayZ Epoch, but are shut down at every turn by the restrictions the developers' have put in place.

From a pure development standpoint, I can understand their point of view; they want a vanilla mod so that if any issues are reported they can be sure its with THEIR code and not with a 3rd party script. However, from a community point of view, it doesn't make sense. The majority of players have zero interest in submitting bug reports, they simply want to play the game. And if every server is exactly the same, then what's the point in paying £40 a month to run one? Out of all the existing DayZ Epoch servers (using it as a benchmark because there's some 4000+ servers out there), hardly any of them run a completely vanilla setup. They range from complete easymode to ultra-hardcore survivalism, with everything in between represented somewhere in the community. This diversity is enabled by the fact that the server and mission files can be modified. And its this diversity which has made the mod so popular.

By preventing people from changing the server files, it stops people from changing even the most basic of things in the mod. For example, one of my players asked me the other day if I could change it so that their UAV spawns more than 3 AI; I had to tell them no, unfortunately I can't change anything like that. There's also a project ongoing to add an AI mission system to Epoch, but they're stymied at every turn by the restrictions which the developers have put in place (http://epochmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29191-ai-missions/). It's things like this which are pissing off the Epoch modding community, and the reason for all of the discontent at the moment.

I've tried to talk to the developers about this with varying success; had a nice conversation with Kiory last night, although my attempts to communicate with Awol, Axle and Sequisha have just been met with insults (as you can see on Reddit, EpochMod forums and the Twitch recording I posted); all I'm trying to do is get them to remove the restrictions which are upsetting server owners and the players in these communities. They've got their own Official Servers which they can keep stock and get bug reports from; but under the terms of their own licence, 3rd parties must be allowed to make changes to the mod for private use. Even supplying a non-restricted DLL as a separate package would satisfy pretty much everyone, and then we can all go back to modding and playing.

The argument between the Epoch developers and infiSTAR is no concern of mine; if they have a problem with him, then they're well within their rights to refuse to work with him and make whatever statements they feel fit regarding his code. What irritated me was the fact that they then started banning anyone who used his Antihack on their server from their forums, including one of their official hosts. The people who use his product are innocent of any sort of wrongdoing towards the Epoch developers, and surely as server owners they should be allowed to run what they want on their server.

That's pretty much a summary of the complaints at the moment, I hope this has cleared some stuff up for everyone. Any further questions I'll be happy to answer either here or via PM :)

[fluttershy 2]

I can understand the team wanting there mod to be played as they intended it in the first place. Preventing the Gameplay to steer to far from its original root is not necesserily a good thing, as it limits the larger scope of what can be done with the base system, but in the end it is there choice to make, no one elses.

Why have they put in something like the CRC Check? - i can only guess that they do not appreciate people modifing there work (for better or worse) out of former experiance with such modified versions. They simply do not want that to happen again, and as a creator i can understand that. I would falcon punch everyones groin that would unpack our pbo to make yet another shitty reskin but now with different models. Guess i will have to contact them and get that nasty CRC checker for our addon too ^^

You say that "3rd Parties must be allowed to make changes to the mod for private use" As soon as you go public and place it on a server that can be access by anyone and have anyone able to download the derivative version, it is no longer private, legaly.

[michaeldcullen 11]

You say that "3rd Parties must be allowed to make changes to the mod for private use" As soon as you go public and place it on a server that can be access by anyone and have anyone able to download the derivative version, it is no longer private, legaly.

Server files ARE private. They execute only on my box, and nobody else's. Hence the problem.

[PuFu 4600]

I'm project lead of the DayZ Evolved team, which is a fork & continuation of DayZ Epoch, with the intention of creating new assets, re-writing old code, and optimizing performance to keep it playable and keep the DZE community alive now that the Epoch developers have moved on to bigger and better things (Arma 3 Epoch). Through this project, I work closely with several prominent mod creators in the DayZ Epoch community, all of whom would LOVE to work on new features for DayZ Epoch, but are shut down at every turn by the restrictions the developers' have put in place.

So, you are a developer for a mod based on another mod, one that has moved on towards ArmA3.

In this particular community, in case you haven't noticed, you can build UPON the existing code, as long as the original code remains UNALTERED. So you can add as many layers as you want as long as those layers are added and not infused. As i hear you can do that for A2 already, and you have done it, using Epoch for A2 as a base. You seem to be discontent about the fact that you cannot do it for A3 anymore, yes?

From a pure development standpoint, I can understand their point of view; they want a vanilla mod so that if any issues are reported they can be sure its with THEIR code and not with a 3rd party script. However, from a community point of view, it doesn't make sense. The majority of players have zero interest in submitting bug reports, they simply want to play the game. And if every server is exactly the same, then what's the point in paying £40 a month to run one? Out of all the existing DayZ Epoch servers (using it as a benchmark because there's some 4000+ servers out there), hardly any of them run a completely vanilla setup. They range from complete easymode to ultra-hardcore survivalism, with everything in between represented somewhere in the community. This diversity is enabled by the fact that the server and mission files can be modified. And its this diversity which has made the mod so popular.

No one is forcing you to pay 40$/month to rent a server. Nor does anyone force you to run Epoch or any other particular mod for that server. It is something you and others (myself included) choose to do, considering the restrictions available.

If this particular MOD wants to keep things THE same (similar to DayZ i might add) for all servers, why bother? If you like the Epoch style mod, why don't you start from ground up your own similar but more open mod rather than force someone else to do it for you?

By preventing people from changing the server files, it stops people from changing even the most basic of things in the mod. For example, one of my players asked me the other day if I could change it so that their UAV spawns more than 3 AI; I had to tell them no, unfortunately I can't change anything like that. There's also a project ongoing to add an AI mission system to Epoch, but they're stymied at every turn by the restrictions which the developers have put in place (http://epochmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29191-ai-missions/). It's things like this which are pissing off the Epoch modding community, and the reason for all of the discontent at the moment.

A bit of a self entitlement here isn't it? If one receives something for free, one should behave a bit more gracious about it. Even when you buy a product, be it game or otherwise, you buy what is written on the box (yes, otherwise you can complain, return for refund etc). Next time you buy a mouse that is not cooker, and you break it while trying to make it do fries, will you argue with the producer because the warranty is void, or about the fact that the they are not supporting any of its cooker features?

I've tried to talk to the developers about this with varying success; had a nice conversation with Kiory last night, although my attempts to communicate with Awol, Axle and Sequisha have just been met with insults (as you can see on Reddit, EpochMod forums and the Twitch recording I posted); all I'm trying to do is get them to remove the restrictions which are upsetting server owners and the players in these communities. They've got their own Official Servers which they can keep stock and get bug reports from; but under the terms of their own licence, 3rd parties must be allowed to make changes to the mod for private use. Even supplying a non-restricted DLL as a separate package would satisfy pretty much everyone, and then we can all go back to modding and playing.

Again, why do you bother? You said to be a developer yourself, so why don't you do it your way?

The argument between the Epoch developers and infiSTAR is no concern of mine; if they have a problem with him, then they're well within their rights to refuse to work with him and make whatever statements they feel fit regarding his code. What irritated me was the fact that they then started banning anyone who used his Antihack on their server from their forums, including one of their official hosts. The people who use his product are innocent of any sort of wrongdoing towards the Epoch developers, and surely as server owners they should be allowed to run what they want on their server.

Is this particular antihack (designed for arma afaik) a commercial product? Can you guarantee that this particular product doesn't infact open a backdoor?

Who is PAYING for their forums? Who is PAYING for their servers? Are you allowed, even entitled to kick someone from your own house/apartment if that someone pees in your washbasin, even if he argues that he does this at his own home as well? Can you kick someone out of your place just because you feel like it, without a real reason whatsover? YES, you can, can't you? because that is your property, isn't it?

That's pretty much a summary of the complaints at the moment, I hope this has cleared some stuff up for everyone. Any further questions I'll be happy to answer either here or via PM :)

None of the above complaints, nor any former ones warrants (from my own point of view yada yada - just in case another taCOOLtical nickname comes up with ideas) BIS takes a step towards Epoch regarding MANW contest. The problem you (and others) are having, have nothing to do with EPOCH breaking MANW contest rules, it's your own knee-jerk...

BTW: i am not affiliated in any ways with EPOCH

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

@fluttershy - cheers, forgot about the private argument

Server files ARE private. They execute only on my box, and nobody else's. Hence the problem.

This is NOT how things work. Private use doesn't only mean NO redistribution, but also no exposure. As soon as you modify something and more than yourself have access to it, even if it is running locally on your private box, it isn't private anymore...

Please come back after you made sense of the licenses before making accusations regarding someone else not respecting it.

[ZertyKchan 14]

CRC32 can hardly be considered as a reliable protection against tampering by itself rigth? cf http://sar.informatik.hu-berlin.de/research/publications/SAR-PR-2006-05/SAR-PR-2006-05_.pdf

[Tyl3r99 41]

here we go again... yet another complain thread

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Lots of closet commies in this community ... Seem to think content creators should work for everyone except themselves.

+1 for closing this toxic thread.

[Tyl3r99 41]

imo its just another fan boy copying the life complaint thread

[maddogx 13]

I'm going to make a judgement call and close this thread.

Even if the TOS of the competition have been violated, the better option would be to contact the organizers directly about it.