Ofp's air units / air support

[Aculaud 0]

I was just wondering what the OFP community thought of the games airborne features.

I was just playing around in the mission editer, and i noticed a few things. The games current air units, under AI control, are terrible shots even at full skill, and are very indiscriminate about ammo conservation. An A10 will often use two missiles on the same tank, even after its been destroyed, and attack choppers often just guess where the target is while using unguided weapons such as FFARs and 57MM rockets. Its like they just try and get it close.

I was playing around with the new OV10 Bronco addon, and its got some beautiful potential. I set up this scenario where i had a single T80 driving along this road, and i practiced on it with the unguided weapons such as the heavier bombs the Bronco carries sometimes. I found it really cool to target the tank, and fly directly overhead, release a couple bombs, and then go to the command view and watch them hit almost directly on it. THIS is a great "Air Support" unit, but it would never behave this way under AI control.

I can personally see some correction needed just in the way AI units fly. I'll watch an A10 engage targets, and it just EMPTIES its rockets onto maybe one or two units, and then its out of ammo. And then i'll see it dodge back and forth trying its hardest to maintain its stability like its got a child at the controls.

As far as transports go, i think they do ok for the most part, but the pilots need to get some balls before heading out on  mission. Often, it'll take them ages to set down somewhere to let infantry out if there are a lot of trees or rocks around, or if the land slopes even the tiniest bit. I think they should be set up to just get as close to the ground as possible, so maybe they wont be able to land fully, but they can at least get close enough to let the cargo out. Otherwise, they're just sitting there as target practice for anyone with a machine gun or rocket launcher.

Anyway, just fealt like ranting. What say you, the people?

[Jester983 0]

I couldnt agree with you more aculaud.

I think what they really need to get the AI to do is taking off the runway and landing. Its impossible for the AI to take off without some sort of script. I also noticed that if you use a black hawk with mg versus a Mi17 the mi 17 will either taking the bullets or fly away. I would think with about 200 rockets they should at least fire some. I know its not the greatest idea but i mean cmon this ammo isnt for you to sit around and look at. Its for killing some lil bastard.

Like aculaud said they are too ammo conservative. They fire 50 rounds of 30mm then give up. I think they should keep going until they either run out of ammo or kill their target.

Well thats just my two cents.

[edc 0]

I think they should imlement more air features like more avionics, a hud(esspecially w/ CCIP). I would think that there would have to be more in IL, since it seems from the screenshots we've seen that it might be more centered on naval and air combat.

[HellToupee 0]

I would like taxing improved, so we can have bigger planes, its impossible to get the ai to land the Herc cas it cant turn on the ground, i find ai is good for landing and taking off, but they never use the 30mm on the planes enough and for human players when having rockets or 30mm slected in a10 or su25 i would like to be able to target things because u can see far enought to line up a shot in time. I have found the ai to use the broncos bombs very well but the a10s laser guided ones need to be improved they jus dont engage the target and have ais be able to desgnate targets with it they use it for a few seconds and then move so target dispears.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

OFP at it's core is an FPS simulator, this really shows when you get into tanks and aircraft. I would like to see more 'sim-like' qualities in OFP vehicles, ie; more realism. It would be awesome to have all of the features that real life crews have, like thermal viewers, working instruments and realistic ammo load-outs. (Especially for tanks and choppers)

OFP was not built to be a flight sim, and it shows. The view distance is way to short to accomodate faster planes, like the F-16, Tornado, and even the A-10 and SU-25. It's better suited to slower planes like the OV-10 Bronco, the Cessna, and choppers. An attempt at a banking turn in a plane results in the plane dropping like a rock, which does not happen in real life.

I would like to see a complete overhaul of the physics engine, AI ablity, realism, especially in tanks and choppers, and a better AI which can actually fly the aircraft properly. Also, the multi-player needs a join in progress feature.

Screw new official campains, missions, or add ons, I don't want them. I would like a 'realism fix' for OFP along with better MP abilities. Campains can only entertain people for so long, but a good MP will let people enjoy OFP for years to come. A good MP has been known to have saved several games. Look at Delta Force, the SP missions were crappy by today's standards but I was still playing DF2 on the Nova World server years after the game was released. The same can go for OFP, with good MP, I will be playing this game for a long time.

Tyler

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

We need some B-52s to come in and bomb the carp out of the enemy.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 23 2002,18:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We need some B-52s to come in and bomb the carp out of the enemy. <span id='postcolor'>

Duke, we're trying to keep this conversation of an intelligent nature. If you insist on being the village idiot, please do so in the off-topic section.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jester983 @ Sep. 23 2002,16:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like aculaud said they are too ammo conservative. They fire 50 rounds of 30mm then give up. I think they should keep going until they either run out of ammo or kill their target.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, my point was that they are TOO trigger happy. They arent good shots at all, so they just end up wasting all their ammo, and then they have nothing left, so they just fly around sight seeing. But i'm happy you agree anyway

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Sep. 23 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OFP was not built to be a flight sim, and it shows. The view distance is way to short to accomodate faster planes, like the F-16, Tornado, and even the A-10 and SU-25. It's better suited to slower planes like the OV-10 Bronco, the Cessna, and choppers. An attempt at a banking turn in a plane results in the plane dropping like a rock, which does not happen in real life.

I would like to see a complete overhaul of the physics engine, AI ablity, realism, especially in tanks and choppers, and a better AI which can actually fly the aircraft properly.<span id='postcolor'>

Iv actually comtemplated weather or not OFP would do better having Aircraft be strictly AI controlled. This would allow for them to be scripted in such a way that they would behave dramatically better. There would be more options availible for mission makers, and there could be more of them, because, since you wouldnt need to see the inside at all or even be able to use them, i would think they'd be easier for the developers to make.

Say you had an AC-130 spectre flying close air support over an infantry operation with you as a soldier. You might be able to do things like place a user defined marker on the map, and radio for it to attack the markers area, so any enemy units or structers around the marker would be engaged by it. Or, you could have it so that, if a team member identified a heavy/armored enemy unit, the plane would automatically target and engage it. It would be cool to set it up on a close air support behaviour like that, so it only engages the targets that you cannot.

And then the laser guided bomb strikes. If you had the air units be under strict AI control, maybe you could have it set up so that, when you point the laser designater at something and activate it, you activate a script that makes an F16 or F18 come to that location and release a bomb set for that target. And then you could limit the number of strikes availible in the units attributes in the editer, and it would just stay on site until it had used all its ordinance.

You could do the same thing with choppers. If you implimented markers that meant something to the game, like a "base" marker for defining the location that the air support goes to re-arm and re-fuel, you could put an A10 or an Apache in a mission for air support, and then they just go to that marker when they need more ammo, and you could have some ammo trucks there that it would re-arm at.

Transports might get a little trickier, because those you do need to see the inside of, and you do have to be able to use them to an extent. To make transports truely effective under AI control, you might need to impliment things like rapelling / fast roping to have a means of insertion when the ground is too rough.

[HellToupee 0]

I would like to be able to put engines in reverse thrust mode when on the ground, for sum things it mite not ber realistic but it is needed much better than havin to push the plane back with a tank when u get in an awkward position.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HellToupee @ Sep. 23 2002,19:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would like to be able to put engines in reverse thrust mode when on the ground, for sum things it mite not ber realistic but it is needed much better than havin to push the plane back with a tank when u get in an awkward position.<span id='postcolor'>

Interestingly enough, youre absolutely right. I hate geting stuck in the corner of a hanger or something when trying to park

[ralphwiggum 6]

ah crap. i thought this was about number of air unit types....but if you ask me, yes, there are room for flight improvements.

but i won't nudge BIS too much about it, since OFP is more of infantry sim. but a little improvement would always help.

[KeyCat 131]

One thing I really hate in OFP is the way enemy AI helicopters/planes "magically" detects and kill you within just a few seconds as soon you jump into a car/jeep/truck/helicopter/tank etc.

As long as you stay in your boots and run on the ground the enemy AI behaves somewhat realistic but the second you enter a veichle they "magically" spot you from miles away and if they have any missiles left you are history without even knowing it!

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[HellToupee 0]

Nar theres other things out there that do the infantry aspect but none do the battlefield aspect of OFP where u see a tank u run, u see a hele u take cover, airunits play an important part, the planes need improvements mostly in the taxing and ai department, and a few options to make attacking ground targets easyier with rockets guns and bombs.

[Gaswell 1]

Considering I play OFP almost exclusively from the infantryman perspective I think the aircraft AI is good enough. I don't really care if they don't conserve ammo, or if they miss clear shots now and then. The only problem I have is with the mid-air collisions.

But I reckon accidents happen, even in real life. Weapons misfire, pilots become disoriented, equipment fail...

In any case, nothing compares to seeing the AI in the air come swooping in with a whole lotta firepower and save your digital ass.

[-SW-J�rsé˙��víL 0]

Will they ever patch it so the rudder works while in flight?

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KeyCat @ Sep. 24 2002,06:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing I really hate in OFP is the way enemy AI helicopters/planes "magically" detects and kill you within just a few seconds as soon you jump into a car/jeep/truck/helicopter/tank etc.

As long as you stay in your boots and run on the ground the enemy AI behaves somewhat realistic but the second you enter a veichle they "magically" spot you from miles away and if they have any missiles left you are history without even knowing it!

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)<span id='postcolor'>

I hate that too. The problem is that whenever a hostile unit enters an empty vehicle, the vehicle changes it's "side" from neutral to enemy. I especially hate this in black-op missions when I'm trying to steal a car to get away.

The best solution would be that a unit entering a vehicle would not automatically change the side of vehicle. Only when an enemy spots you inside the vehicle from a distance suitable for a soldier to spot another, the whole vehicle would turn into hostile for all enemy.

So, I suggest keeping the stolen vehicles neutral until someone confirms you to be hostile. Shouldn't take too much effort in coding?

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spitfire @ Sep. 25 2002,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best solution would be that a unit entering a vehicle would not automatically change the side of vehicle. Only when an enemy spots you inside the vehicle from a distance suitable for a soldier to spot another, the whole vehicle would turn into hostile for all enemy.

So, I suggest keeping the stolen vehicles neutral until someone confirms you to be hostile. Shouldn't take too much effort in coding?<span id='postcolor'>

Can the AI, or for that matter, Human players target individual players in a vehicle?

-=Die Alive=-

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Sep. 25 2002,18:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can the AI, or for that matter, Human players target individual players in a vehicle?

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

I guess not, but I meant that any neutral vehicle should be considered as a soldier in the matter of identifying distance until it's identified and confirmed as hostile.

[SpaceAlex 0]

There are people who want everything realistic, but most people just want to fly a chopper and have fun in it. Simulators are never too popular on the internet. I think that mulitplayer would be even more empty if everything would be simulated. Only simulator freaks would play the game. Don't get me wrong. I would like to have everything realistic too, but it just doesn't work. It would be nice to have a perfect simulator, yes. That would rock, but not for all people out there. Some people are just too lazy to search for controls for one hour to get a tank or chopper moving. They just want to sit in and start the engine. Anyways. OFP isn't so bad. Try Battlefield 1942 and you'll see what's not realistic. Be happy with what you have. I have nothing against choppers in the game. they're simulater great for a game like OFP. Planes do need a little work, but choppers are ok.

AI is a different story. Ai can get totaly crazy when they're in flying objects They waste their ammo. Ok. For example: if you put one Vulcan and one Hind on the map, Hind will start shooting at the Vulcan with its cannon or put three rockets into it. Why not just one. I think one is more than enough. Same goes for planes. Other than that AI is ok in the choppers.

AI in tanks is pretty good. The only problem is that they never use heat.

[KeyCat 131]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spitfire @ Sep. 25 2002,15:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best solution would be that a unit entering a vehicle would not automatically change the side of vehicle. Only when an enemy spots you inside the vehicle from a distance suitable for a soldier to spot another, the whole vehicle would turn into hostile for all enemy.

So, I suggest keeping the stolen vehicles neutral until someone confirms you to be hostile. Shouldn't take too much effort in coding?<span id='postcolor'>

Nice idea! IMHO something must be done about this. As it is now it's suicide to enter any vehicle while you have an enemy AI chopper/plane/tank/BMP etc. nearby.

Kind of ruins the freedom you otherwise have in OFP if you know you will be instantly killed if you enter a vehicle

Hope BIS are listening...

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Satchel 0]

The major gripe i have with vehicles in general, to include fixed and rotary wing A/C, are the physics.

A few examples:

<ul>

[*]If a helicopter or jet hits an Object or earth surface, it bounces around like a rubber ball. Same if an AC is hit by cannon- or missile fire, caused by the impact AC´s can even stop forward flight, going backwards and/or sideways, flipping over like toys, as if they have very little mass and momentum, or beeing operated in a low gravity environment.

[*]You can start and land a fixed wing AC perfectly on any terrain. It not only makes airstrips neglectable, but is also unreal.

[*]Damage physics do need improvement, a helicopter, doesn´t matter what type, that survives a direct hit on normally vital parts from a 120mm HEAT, HE-FRAG or APFSDS munition is just not real. The linear decrement of overall hitpoints upon substraction of weapon damage capability is also a bit on the simple side, i often feel like fighting the level boss in arcade games when going against vehicles in OFP, mostly it doesn´t become evident they have different hit locations with different strengths and vital components.

The cockpit implementation of AC also leaves alot to be desired, the fuzzy and blurry instrument gauges on the else non functional panel bitmaps are pretty much unreadable and don´t serve a purpose, as they display basically the same information the omnipresent arcade HUD is presenting, with difference that the "HUD" is usable for navigation and SA.

If removing the Arcade HUD and placing all info devices (Gauges, MFD´s, HUD) into the cockpit while making them readable, it would do a great deal to immersion and realism.

Other than that weapon system realism, but that´s too much to list.

[grey 0]

since when does any helicopter in this game survive a direct hit with a 120mm cannon ? what have u been smoking

as for ai using heat... i think they might have done that on purpose can u imagine how frustrating it would be to have your entire squad wiped out by a single shell landing 15 metres away from you? heat is VERY powerful at the moment, it would be just unfair for the ai to use it they are good enough with the machine gun anyway

if opflashpoint was done again, or perhaps as a note for independence lost, i agree with those who suggest that fixed wing aircraft should not be made player flyable. They should be AI only, we should observe them taking off and operating from airstrips, and flying overhead giving fire support, but the engine simply cant provide a large enough view distance for aircraft combat to be feasible. For helicopters however, i think flashpoint is fine as it is. Of course minor things like bouncing off trees and fast roping could be addressed, but helicopter combat in general is quite good, and the realism isnt _that_ bad. Same with tanks, i wouldnt change them much either, besides maybe adding the commander 50. cal machine gun etc, and fixing the commanding-when-ai-is-spotting targets problems.

[grey 0]

oh and one more thing... give us devastating mini-guns on our blackhawks please !! the rate of fire on machineguns in the game isnt impressive enough in fact the machine gun blackhawk is pretty useless at the moment, the AI barely has a chance to target anything and the pilot doesnt make an effort to help his gunner get a shot on target either.. need a new AI model for craft with sidegunners perhaps? Eg a "circle targetted unit" ai attack pattern for proper fire support, and then we could have the ac-130 too

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (grey @ Sep. 26 2002,18:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh and one more thing... give us devastating mini-guns on our blackhawks please !! the rate of fire on machineguns in the game isnt impressive enough <span id='postcolor'>

Try out Kegetys's excellent OH-58D Kiowa Warrior -addon. Its mini-gun is a real killer

[KeyCat 131]

You are right Satchel and I agree with most of it. Especially the bouncing/low gravity issue and the damage physics.

I remember when OFP was released and I tested how much pain the Hind tolerated and it took 7-8 stingers to bring it down? I'm not an weapon expert but no way this could be realistic and it also makes the AA soldier class useless since they only carry 1 (one) stinger

Don't think anyone is asking for Falcon 4 realism in choppers/planes but please give us belivable damage from weapons, belivable physics and stop the AI choppers/planes from "magically" detect you when entering a vehicle.

I have e-mailed BIS several times and if more people voice there opinion about this I hope they will eventually listen and make this GREAT simulator even better!

Fully understand that they had more important things like netcode, super super AI, obvious bugs etc. to address first but now that many of those things are fixed my hope is that BIS look over things mentioned above.

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)