Legal violations by A3L: Arma 3 life

[nodunit 397]

Sorry if I don't understand what the problem is here but...

What have they done that is illegal?

Modifying mods isn't illegal.

A donation system isn't illegal.

Server admins giving premium content to donators isn't illegal.

The only thing I can think of that they could have done wrong from what I've read is not done the "XYZ mod by ABC" in a txt file somewhere.

So yeah, whats the deal?

Let me ask you this...say you create something and release it under a license that states said content is not to be used in other mods without explicit permission from the author, and it is not to be used for commercial purposes.

I come along, see your content and take it for my mod, you call foul play and point that you explicitly stated the content is not to be used in other mods, that you did not give permission, and that you want it to be removed.

I in turn then say that it is not illegal and that just because you say you want your content removed, does not mean I have to listen to you. How would you feel?

Donations are nothing new and bad sure but this isn't a case of Hey come play on our server and donate if you like it, it's if you would like to play on our server please donate.

Then saying "we will give special content to people who donate extra". If said content is something I stole then technicly I am commercializing your content.

This would be akin to an addon maker creating something and then "releasing it", but you have to "donate" to get it. The author isn't selling it by normal means but the end result is the same. You want it? You pay for it.

Now add in that the author also takes an addon from another author without permission, incorporating it and claiming it as their own then STILL requiring that you donate to access it.

Edited November 9, 2014 by NodUnit

[GSP167 1]

I've asked RhinoCrunch to help raise awareness; if anyone wants to add some more informations or address him, please do so here; http://rhinocrunch.com/forums/topic/3791-call-for-help-arma-3-life/

[tonic-_- 53]

Let me ask you this...say you create something and release it under a license that states said content is not to be used in other mods without explicit permission from the author, and it is not to be used for commercial purposes.

I come along, see your content and take it for my mod, you call foul play and point that you explicitly stated the content is not to be used in other mods, that you did not give permission, and that you want it to be removed.

I in turn then say that it is not illegal and that just because you say you want your content removed, does not mean I have to listen to you. How would you feel?

Not to go off topic but he would not feel anything. He did the same thing to OpticalSnare (Blastcore) minus the 'pay' part. HJohnson really does not have business in this conversation but that's my opinion. However he did point something out which is: The only thing I can think of that they could have done wrong from what I've read is not done the "XYZ mod by ABC" in a txt file somewhere.

If you use the ARMA APL license people are allowed to edit and redistribute your work so long as you are credited and it is redistributed under the same APL license. Not a lot of people have caught onto that for an ARMA APL license.

[war_lord 934]

Anyway the charge of mod thievery is immaterial. If any sort of "content for cash" scheme is proven, the mod and any host servers are violating the user agreement. The problem is that you can't prove such a charge without a smoking gun. You'd need to catch them saying "yes, we're charging people for access to content we don't own".

I'm inclined to believe the allegations personally, but BI themselves can't operate on just allegations. And that's what we have, lots of plausible allegations.

[GSP167 1]

Anyway the charge of mod thievery is immaterial. If any sort of "content for cash" scheme is proven, the mod and any host servers are violating the user agreement. The problem is that you can't prove such a charge without a smoking gun. You'd need to catch them saying "yes, we're charging people for access to content we don't own".

I'm inclined to believe the allegations personally, but BI themselves can't operate on just allegations. And that's what we have, lots of plausible allegations.

Or BI could simply blacklist their servers (or whatever else they can do to block servers). They are a private company and have a right to kick out any servers they do not wish to see. (If legal actions fails)

[war_lord 934]

Or BI could simply blacklist their servers (or whatever else they can do to block servers). They are a private company and have a right to kick out any servers they do not wish to see.

As I said, they're not going to do that without proof. Bohemia has already made it clear they won't intervene in cases of stolen content. The allegations of pay to play need to be substantiated if we want something substantial to be done.

Edited November 9, 2014 by War_lord

[GSP167 1]

As I said, they're not going to do that without proof.

They don't (legally) need proof to blacklist servers. They are a private company and can do whatever they want with their game. Kinda like someone can buy an Arma 3 server and make a set of rules that he will enforce, it's private and isn't a democracy.

[nodunit 397]

Need proof...heheh...ahhhh...what a world we live in when licenses that say "do not redistribute" don't matter, what is the point to having a licenses if they mean nothing?

BI spent all that time working out these licenses and explaining them and for...what exactly?

[StevenW129 10]

Just received an email from their domain provider, they are currently looking into the situation.

[war_lord 934]

They don't (legally) need proof to blacklist servers. They are a private company and can do whatever they want with their game. Kinda like someone can buy an Arma 3 server and make a set of rules that he will enforce, it's private and isn't a democracy.

Except that they aren't going to do that without proof, BI is a company, they aren't going to invest manpower and time into getting servers taken down unless it can be proved that A. Something is up, B. It affects BI's bottom line. Stolen content doesn't give them the motivation to move on this, because BI isn't losing money on that.

[vegeta897 13]

Need proof...heheh...ahhhh...what a world we live in when licenses that say "do not redistribute" don't matter, what is the point to having a licenses if they mean nothing?

BI spent all that time working out these licenses and explaining them and for...what exactly?

Are you saying proof doesn't matter? How would you feel if someone claimed something you made was actually stolen from them, and BIS took action against you without proof?

[GSP167 1]

Except that they aren't going to do that without proof, BI is a company, they aren't going to invest manpower and time into getting servers taken down unless it can be proved that A. Something is up, B. It affects BI's bottom line. Stolen content doesn't give them the motivation to move on this, because BI isn't losing money on that.

It doesn't take that much man power, just someone to turn the switch off and bye bye arma 3 life servers.

[nodunit 397]

Are you saying proof doesn't matter? How would you feel if someone claimed something you made was actually stolen from them, and BIS took action against you without proof?

I'm laughing that there is "no proof". Of course it matters, I'm aware that the system works both ways.

I'm humored that a 1:1 display of the content and a cease request from authors doesn't matter, I find it funny that it is easier for someone to manipulate the system with "donation" workarounds to monetize and commercialize content.

As for what I would do if accused? Simple, I would research it to discover wether or not this accusation is valid, if the accuser is in fact the author and holds a connection to what they are accusing me of using. It's not like it's difficult, every release is tethered to a name on a forum or hub somewhere under a name wherein the admins state the handle, it isn't "someone released" it is "X released"

After that we check the config to see who is credited for what and wether or not it is enhanced content extended from its original state under a previous author.

All this I can do in about...fifteen minutes most.

Edited November 9, 2014 by NodUnit

[kremator 1065]

Point A ding. Point B ding. If they don't do something then noone will create any addon for Arma3.

[war_lord 934]

Point A ding. Point B ding. If they don't do something then noone will create any addon for Arma3.

Simple Hyperbole. Most modders aren't affected by this or won't care very much, anyone who does decide to boycott modding over this is being foolish anyway, only person getting hurt by doing that is the player. And BI doesn't make money from mods. And Island life will keep on using the work no matter what you say.

It doesn't take that much man power, just someone to turn the switch off and bye bye arma 3 life servers.

You really don't understand how server hosting works do you? Bohemia has zero control over which servers run what, privately hosted servers are handled by private businesses that don't have any association with Bohemia at all. The best you could do is get the Arma 3 life servers taken down on an individual basis, but that would take weeks and Arma 3 life could simply find a new host every time.

You're seriously overestimating the amount of "pull" Bohemia actually has.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Simple Hyperbole. Most modders aren't affected by this or won't care very much, anyone who does decide to boycott modding over this is being foolish anyway, only person getting hurt by doing that is the player. And BI doesn't make money from mods.

You sure about that?

Do you realize how many people purchased A3 just to play a particular mod/community-developed game-mode?

[war_lord 934]

You sure about that?

Do you realize how many people purchased A3 just to play a particular mod/community-developed game-mode?

Ok, say I buy Arma 3 to play some community mod, and only to do that. Then the maker throws a fit and stops development. I've already bought the game, BI has my money, why would they care?

Personally, if all the people who bought Arma only for Dayz and Island Life vanished tomorrow, I'd consider it an improvement.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ok, say I buy Arma 3 to play some community mod, and only to do that. Then the maker throws a fit and stops development. I've already bought the game, BI has my money, why would they care?

Flawed argument. Most of people buying this game since OFP are doing so because of the sandbox / modding ability of this game. So that's one of the main assets of the game for BI, which is well understood by them (MANW contest for example).

[Macser 776]

I've already bought the game, BI has my money, why would they care?

Not a very good business model. :)

I'm sure they're quite concerned about repeat business.As any company is.

They aren't so well established that they can disregard user satisfaction completely.

Large corporations are the only ones likely to get away with that kind of nonsensical

approach.

I doubt that's the reason behind any apparent lack of reaction from BI.

In the absence of legal action,keeping people informed with evidence is

the only viable option.No flaming.No bullying.No digital tribal warfare.

Just continue to present the evidence to as many people as possible.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Maczer

[war_lord 934]

Flawed argument. Most of people buying this game since OFP are doing so because of the sandbox / modding ability of this game. So that's one of the main assets of the game for BI, which is well understood by them (MANW contest for example).

It's rather pointless to speculate on what "most people" buy the game for, people who sign up for forums are very much a vocal diehard minority. Arma 2 certainly had a massive spike in sales due to Dayz, but I'd say only a fraction of those people became fans of Arma 3. Personally I buy Arma because you just can't find a better Military Sim Sandbox on the market. Are mods a big part of my experience? Yes. Are they vital to the experience? No.

Not a very good business model. :)

I'm sure they're quite concerned about repeat business.As any company is.

They aren't so well established that they can disregard user satisfaction completely.

Large corporations are the only ones likely to get away with that kind of nonsensical

approach.

I doubt that's the reason behind any apparent lack of reaction from BI.

Thing is, the average user doesn't care about Modding Politics, hell an increasingly large part of the audience play Arma just for novelty mods like Dayz derivatives and A3life. Most of the userbase don't care about this issue. How do you think A3L have been able to run the scam as long as they have, pretty much in the open?

Do I like the situation? No. Can I see why Bohemia isn't leaping into action? Yes.

Edited November 9, 2014 by War_lord

[ProfTournesol 956]

It's rather pointless to speculate on what "most people" buy the game for, people who sign up for forums are very much a vocal diehard minority. Arma 2 certainly had a massive spike in sales due to Dayz, but I'd say only a fraction of those people became fans of Arma 3. Personally I buy Arma because you just can't find a better Military Sim Sandbox on the market. Are mods a big part of my experience? Yes. Are they vital to the experience? No.

DayZ isn't the only mod available my bad, most of the mods are military oriented. If you're still here in one year, it'll probably be because of mods. And yes, mods are vital to the experience.

[war_lord 934]

DayZ isn't the only mod available my bad, most of the mods are military oriented. If you're still here in one year, it'll probably be because of mods. And yes, mods are vital to the experience.

I'd be here in a year regardless. I like mods, I appreciate mods, but I can also do without them. You're overestimating the importance of mods to the overall picture.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

I'd be here in a year regardless. I like mods, I appreciate mods, but I can also do without them. You're overestimating the importance of mods to the overall picture.

...

[war_lord 934]

If you're going to respond to actual posts with single image replies, you're the one who should stop posting.

If you have a better source for the playing habits of the user base then anecdotes, show it. Forums aren't a representative sample.

[eggbeast 3684]

ok we have some late-comers to the party here - guys please read these threads for proof of

a) pay to play earning A3L what we estimate to be in excess of $10,000 = commercial use

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2792801&viewfull=1#post2792801

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2793527&viewfull=1#post2793527

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799774&viewfull=1#post2799774

what is commercial use?

On Psy's youtube page which has had a staggering 50,000 views in the past 36 hours, I added a comment about the terms of service, and the potential to charge-back a donation fee made to benefit from an expedited access service to a mod containing provable illegal content.

Please see what you think of it and perhaps link it to anyone who may benefit from the notion.

Are they still charging? yes they are

http://i.imgur.com/Tp7FMhL.png

http://i.imgur.com/ePzIhKr.png

http://i.imgur.com/MONDb9Y.png

b) stolen code from Tonic, request of removal from Roberthammer and Milkman

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799456&viewfull=1#post2799456

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799786&viewfull=1#post2799786

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799830&viewfull=1#post2799830

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799904&viewfull=1#post2799904

c) Roberthammers request to remove his content from the A3L mod (ignored by A3L)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2799909&viewfull=1#post2799909

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2811062&viewfull=1#post2811062

d) Milkmans request to have his content removed (ignored by A3L)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2806641&viewfull=1#post2806641

e) Tonics proof of theft and request for removal of his code (ignored by A3L)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2800310&viewfull=1#post2800310

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2811217&viewfull=1#post2811217

Confession by Mike Baxter in interview on youtube

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2818211&viewfull=1#post2818211

and proof he commissioned piracy for cash ($150 to $500 received from individuals totaling minimum of $3,500 for pirated models cars)

Tonic replies to Caidens claims of a relationship, and communications implying they could use his code:

http://www.altisliferpg.com/topic/7542-a3l-makes-me-cry-from-laughter/

f) Kiory's expression of dismay at finding his hat mod in A3L

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2815672&viewfull=1#post2815672

g) CSE demands removal of their mod

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2816425&viewfull=1#post2816425

h) Forum Ban for Caiden as a result of the complaint being upheld by BIS forum moderators

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2800414&viewfull=1#post2800414

i) List of pbos in the mod demonstrating what is included (screen shots of their folder structure sent to Tonic by a moderator on his forums)

http://gyazo.com/833e667e536046b3dd3cd4abfb29d0b3

http://gyazo.com/e9a4af0560f109a50e05a0b470599310

http://gyazo.com/86c5133f80bcdd9425f57b5ed0b005cc

http://gyazo.com/a876797fcc0c12dd56f5485a17a0d1ac

From what can be seen they are using the following:

Tonics code 90%+ (has asked for removal)

Milkmans buildings - (has asked for removal)

Kiory's Random Hat Madness (has asked for removal)

Ivory Aircraft - CRJ-200 (dezkit)

Ivory Aircraft - T6A (dezkit - Iris asset protected by non-commercial copyright)

Ivory Aircraft - ERJ 135 (dezkit)

FLAY's HangGlider

Blastcore

TFAR (nkey not fussed)

rh_de.pbo (RobertHammer - has asked for removal)

rh_de_cfg.pbo (RobertHammer - has asked for removal)

rh_m4.pbo (RobertHammer - has asked for removal)

rh_m4_cfg.pbo (RobertHammer - has asked for removal)

CSE mod (has asked for removal)

Stolen code from CL3

http://i.imgur.com/JqJHOFE.png

i) allegedly stolen models from other

Shift 2: http://i.imgur.com/HbgASrz.jpg

A3L: http://i.imgur.com/meAYId0.jpg

CL3: http://i.imgur.com/BhLFQUi.png

Help: http://i.imgur.com/deLC1X1.png

Forza: dev stream: http://i.imgur.com/OajxFLm.png (removed his past broadcast after the pic was posted)

2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1: http://i.imgur.com/5HF9zqb.png

Forza 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4zbpyTcznGM#t=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1pla6i4PsBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S0gBZoPOkNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-MOWSwZPYXw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mc77oZ0Et50

Iris aircraft converted with permission by dezkit

example of permission - NOTE their non-commercial requirement

j) previous team members exposing culture of commercialisation and theft

+ statement from one of the A3L developers as to the truth behind the scenes at A3L

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p5LOiKWgDk

+ statement from another A3L develop explaining some of the problems inside the mod team

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2813832&viewfull=1#post2813832

I believe that the money they were making was more important than doing the right thing

+ another of their devs showing remorse

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2811732&viewfull=1#post2811732

This is really, really upsetting that a community I once worked has been doing this even when I worked with them. I had no idea about anything of these legal violations during all of that time. Lies after lies. This is really just sad.

+ModDB upholds the view that A3L broke their Terms of Service

http://www.moddb.com/mods/arma-3-life1

The mod you are trying to view has been deleted and is no longer available. This may have occured at the developers request because it is no longer active and was not released, or it may have occured because it violated the sites Terms of Service. If this is a mistake and you are a member of this mods team and would like it re-activated, please contact us with the details.

k) BIS views

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162249-From-the-creators-of-Stratis-Life-ArmA-3-Life&p=2808039&viewfull=1#post2808039

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2812681&viewfull=1#post2812681

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2813447&viewfull=1#post2813447

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184772-Legal-violations-by-A3L-Arma-3-life&p=2813469&viewfull=1#post2813469

- they believe A3L isn't still charging for access

- they won't intervene in the theft of materials

hence the petition to ask them to reconsider their position

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/bis-vs-piracy

A3L team present and currently enjoying the use of the BIS forums:

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?110915-Zannaza

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?86504-Pr0mthesus

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?136327-Kurtt420

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?177990-Schultzit

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?212110-TheMrZoo

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?237041-mbaxter (BANNED)

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?110356-Caiden (BANNED)

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?127957-Hem (APOLOGISED)

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?132141-Brobropopo (left ages ago)

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?142622-Delgado (APOLOGISED)

http://forums.bistudio.com/member.php?172431-Barotall (APOLOGISED)

Edited November 30, 2014 by eggbeast