New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[Gunter Severloh 4054]

Nor does a difficulty option. If one group likes playing with Setting X and another group dislikes playing with Setting X, then the two groups aren't going to both be happy playing on the same server with Setting X. Trying to force the two groups to play together doesn't work -- people who dislike Setting X will simply quit the game, if they aren't allowed to play on servers without Setting X turned off, so there's going to be your "split" either way. The difference is whether the second group plays on separate servers from the first group (if there's an option), or quits the game altogether (if there's no option). Which is why difficulty options exist. It's about different people having different preferences & requirements.

I must agree, I'd preferred if there was a slider option in the difficulty or game options section of the controls for a player to adjust the sway to their own preference.

There is a problem with this idea though when it comes to pvp type games as one will have the advantage if he has no sway or very little.

Since I only play sp and coop with a friend or two and always against AI I'd prefer no sway, Im not interested in the realism aspect of a slight sway

or whatever when your holding your gun, I can make a mission as hard as I need to without being annoyed that i cant hit sh*t when im fired apon or need to

fire at an spotted enemy, dam gun was already moving a bit before 1.24 now its even worse, but I solved my own issue by using http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26266

thanks to Lao. Call me swayless :D

[Echo38 1]

but you must understand when so many people disagree with you because your preference is based on reasoning very personal to you.

It's roughly four people vocally disagreeing with me. There are others who like the DWW, of course, but I've seen at least as many who dislike it. It isn't just me & my bum hand.

[-Coulum- 35]

It's roughly four people vocally disagreeing with me. There are others who like the DWW, of course, but I've seen at least as many who dislike it. It isn't just me & my bum hand.

Not saying that no one agrees with you on options and all, just I don't think anyone agrees with you for the very reason of your "bum" hand, and you must understand why.

By the way though, regarding your "tremble system": wouldn't that be just as annoying and unnatural feeling as sway (possibly even more so because its unpredictable and thus you can't get a "feel" for it.)?

[BL1P 35]

YO.

whats the TLDR on this topic now ?

[Echo38 1]

YO.

whats the TLDR on this topic now ?

~Half the people love the drunken weapon wave, ~half the people hate it. Echo38 really hates it because it aggravates his old hand injury, and three people vocally feel he should have to just Deal With It [/shades] and that his only choices should be to play with hand pain, use a mod which excludes him from multiplayer, or quit the game altogether. That's the TL;DR!

---------- Post added at 01:39 ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 ----------

regarding your "tremble system": wouldn't that be just as annoying and unnatural feeling as sway (possibly even more so because its unpredictable and thus you can't get a "feel" for it.)?

I don't think it would be. I expect my sights to tremble, because of my real-life shooting experience. However, I don't expect to have to fight someone else yanking my gun barrel around every time I take aim, which is what's happening now. That isn't how real-life shooting works. Hey, I have an idea: go find a competitive shooter in real-life. Now, next time he starts to aim at a target, grab his rifle by the shroud and start yanking it around a few centimeters. Don't stop 'until he stops looking through the sights! I'll bet he'll get pretty pissed off, too, even if he doesn't have a hand injury.

: )

Edited July 31, 2014 by Echo38

[roshnak 41]

I don't think it would be. I expect my sights to tremble, because of my real-life shooting experience. However, I don't expect to have to fight someone else yanking my gun barrel around every time I take aim, which is what's happening now. That isn't how real-life shooting works. Hey, I have an idea: go find a competitive shooter in real-life. Now, next time he starts to aim at a target, grab his rifle by the shroud and start yanking it around a few centimeters. Don't stop 'until he stops looking through the sights! I'll bet he'll get pretty pissed off, too, even if he doesn't have a hand injury.

: )

If you seriously only experience a 1mm tremble when you are shooting offhand, you must be a truly exceptional marksman.

We've had multiple people with shooting experience and a few with military and LEO backgrounds weigh in on this. Even the ones who disliked the current system thought the pattern of the sway should be different, not the amount of sway. No one else has described what you are describing when shooting offhand.

Edited July 31, 2014 by roshnak

[St. Jimmy 272]

TLDR

Holding breath should effect more and sway should be more vertical?

[Echo38 1]

If you seriously only experience a 1mm tremble when you are shooting offhand, you must be a truly exceptional marksman.

No, I'm not a great marksman IRL. My 1mm figure is an approximate estimation on the amount of shake (due to heartbeat & muscle fatigue), measured by my hand's travel, when I hold a pistol IRL. I don't have my rifle handy, so I only have my pistol to go by right now. In Arma, I mostly shoot a rifle with iron sights, while crouched. (Prone usually obscures the view too much with grass.) In reality, while resting my elbow on my knee like this, I expect that my deviation at the hand would be a bit less than 1mm, because my elbow is resting, but the sight is a bit farther down the rifle than my hand, which would amplify the shake. So I think that it would be ~1mm with my rifle as well.

Really, at this point, it feels like a dead horse to me. How 'bout you?

Edited July 31, 2014 by Echo38

[roshnak 41]

No, I'm not a great marksman IRL. My 1mm figure is an approximate estimation on the amount of shake (due to heartbeat & muscle fatique), measured by travel of the hand, when I hold a pistol IRL. I don't have my rifle handy, so I only have my pistol to go by right now. In Arma, I mostly shoot a rifle with iron sights, while crouched. (Prone usually obscures the view too much with grass.) In reality, while resting my elbow on my knee like this, I expect that my deviation at the hand would be a bit less than 1mm, because my elbow is resting, but the sight is a bit farther down the rifle than my hand, which would amplify the shake. So I think that it would be ~1mm with my rifle as well.

Really, at this point, it feels like a dead horse to me. How 'bout you?

That's not what's happening in Arma. All shooting stances in Arma are unsupported. I think we all want weapon resting to be included, but it's not. It's not accurate to compare your shooting from a supported position in real life to the unsupported shooting in Arma.

[Echo38 1]

My pistol example was unsupported. Even if you don't have a pistol handy, you can try it now. Pick up a flashlight or something else that's fairly similar in size & mass to a pistol, and walk up to a mirror. Put your hands around the object in the pistol grip and put it an inch away from the mirror. Use the edge of the mirror as a reference -- if you want to be more precise, stick { a Post-It note with a 1mm mark } on the mirror. How much does your hand (and the pistol-sized object within them) shake? Not more than a millimeter, surely, unless you're very out of shape.

A rifle will be a bit different (the longer & heavier, the more different), yes. The front sight post's greater distance from your hand, the resting of the butt on your shoulder, etc. But it won't be that different. Try the object-and-mirror test with a rifle-sized object -- if you're in decent shape, you should be able to manage about a millimeter, even measured from the end of the "barrel" instead of at the hand. (I'm talking talking AR length, not sniper rifle, by the way.)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Echo38

[roshnak 41]

A rifle will be a bit different (the longer & heavier, the more different), yes. The front sight post's greater distance from your hand, the resting of the butt on your shoulder, etc. But it won't be that different. Try the object-and-mirror test with a rifle-sized object -- if you're in decent shape, you should be able to manage about a millimeter, even measured from the end of the "barrel" instead of at the hand. (I'm talking talking AR length, not sniper rifle, by the way.)

I can't manage a millimeter, because that is an insanely small distance and I'm not a robot. It's the width of a dime.

Also I'm not interested in deviation at the hand, because that is nearly useless information for a discussion about rifle sway. Deviation at the hand could have completely different effects on deviation at the front sight depending on the length of the barrel.

Edited July 31, 2014 by roshnak

[CaptainObvious 95]

For shits and giggles, I measured how much sway I get at the muzzle, I taped a sharpie on the barrel so the tip is just past the muzzle, then I taped a piece of paper on a heavy towel that I hanged from top of a door so it can move only towards and away from the muzzle but not sideways, this way the sharpie drew a nice and sharp line without piercing the paper.

Here's my findings, I guess I need to practice some more as I'm quite not on the 1mm mark yet.

[Greenfist 1863]

CaptainObvious, nice test. :)

It's been more than decade since my last class in trigonometry so after 15 minutes of hard thinking I had to resort to an online isosceles triangle calculator. Kids these days have it too easy.

Assuming I did the math right:

Your sway is about 1 cm. The pivot point is about 1m behind the muzzle tip. Conservatively. So the angle is 5.7°.

Thus, the sway at 200m distance is 20 meters? That's huge.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

[CaptainObvious 95]

CaptainObvious, nice test. :)

It's been more than decade since my last class in trigonometry so after 15 minutes of hard thinking I had to resort to an online isosceles triangle calculator. Kids these days have it too easy.

Assuming I did the math right:

Your sway is about 1 cm. The pivot point is about 1m behind the muzzle tip. Conservatively. So the angle is 5.7°.

Thus, the sway at 200m distance is 20 meters? That's huge.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

Heh, thanks, I'm on holiday and it gets boring at times ;)

Regarding your calculations, I've been drinkin' and can't be arsed to (try to;)) calculate that myself, but I don't think it's a good idea to imagine a pivot point at the end of the buttstock as the shooter's shoulder is moving too, so the angular error really isn't that dramatic.

I guess I'd need to record a video with some kind of a huge ruler at 200 meters shown thru sights, but I don't have a camera (nor that huge ruler, lol) good enough to get any relevant results.

edith: Before someone jumps in and tells me "You're drunk, that's not a relevant result!" No, I wasn't drunk during my magnificent experiments.

Edited July 31, 2014 by CaptainObvious

[-Coulum- 35]

5.7 degrees for a 1:100 ratio sounds wrong. But no need to hurt our heads with angles. 1cm off at 1m converts to 200cm off at 200m. So 2 metres. However I don't think that test is exactly "concrete". Also, if I understand correctly, Echo is talking about hand deviation, not muzzle. So 1mm at the hand, about half a metre from the body, would convert to 2mm at a metres length (at the muzzle). Still pretty very small. Echo, it might look like a very small amount of sway but you must keep in mind that your whole body is unsteady, not just your hands. So you might not actually fully realize the extent. People always think they are holding steadier and more on target than they actually are. That's why they miss.

I think the best test of sway would be aiming a laser pointer down range and recording the deviation. The further you point the laser pointer the more accurate a picture of "real life sway" you will get.

[Greenfist 1863]

No worries, mate; I'm a bit tipsy myself.:icon_twisted:

I don't have a rifle handy right now, but I'd imagine that the pivot point is somewhere near your spine. That about 1m to tip, right?

[CaptainObvious 95]

Hm, perhaps I could slap an ND filter on my camera and a laser pointer on the barrel and take some long exposure pics of the target, maybe tomorrow if I manage to find all the stuff. :icon_idea:

No worries, mate; I'm a bit tipsy myself.:icon_twisted:

I don't have a rifle handy right now, but I'd imagine that the pivot point is somewhere near your spine. That about 1m to tip, right?

The pivot would only exist if the shooter would be stiff as a rock, right? and then the pivot would be at his feet, but we are humans and we are soft and weak so we move in all directions whether we want to or not, sideways, back and forth, turn a little here and there, the weapon itself is of course doing all that too, not just turning around a single point. :lecture:

[vegeta897 13]

CaptainObvious is right. There is no one single pivot point when you're holding a weapon. More importantly, the deviation of the tip is a result of rotational and translational movement. It is possible for the barrel to deviate half an inch to the left, without the gun actually rotating around any pivot point anywhere on your body. Let's not forget the point of stability is the ground, and there are dozens of movable joints in your body that lead from the ground to the weapon. All manner of rotational and translational movement occurs.

[Greenfist 1863]

We're gonna need a scope cam video.

[vegeta897 13]

I like CO's idea of a mounted laser and long exposure pictures.

This is starting to come full circle, isn't it?

[Echo38 1]

Also, if I understand correctly, Echo is talking about hand deviation, not muzzle.

For the pistol one, yes, I was. Not for the rifle. Both really ought to be measured in muzzle deviation, yes, but with a pistol, the hand is pretty close to the muzzle. Your ~2mm. figure sounds reasonable -- my ~1mm one may indeed be optimistic; I didn't use a ruler. I can't believe Cpt.O was completely sober when he took that picture -- I can't imagine any remotely healthy person having a full centimeter of deviation like that without being plastered. : )

[CaptainObvious 95]

For the pistol one, yes, I was. Not for the rifle. Both really ought to be measured in muzzle deviation, yes, but with a pistol, the hand is pretty close to the muzzle. Your ~2mm. figure sounds reasonable -- my ~1mm one may indeed be optimistic; I didn't use a ruler. I can't believe Cpt.O was completely sober when he took that picture -- I can't imagine any remotely healthy person having a full centimeter of deviation like that without being plastered. : )

You can believe what you want, in my pic there's 5 clear "peaks" on top, those I believe are from breathing in, the "grouping" in the lower part of the figure is 6.6mm x 4.3mm (excluding the stray curve on the right.).

The difference with sway and a jitter is that it's a lot more intuitive to take the shot when the sway drifts the sights on the target, with the jitter It'd be just hoping you pull the trigger exactly at the right moment.

You can test your sway very easily, I bet you find it drastically bigger than 1mm or even that 2mm, please test it, you might surprise yourself.

[roshnak 41]

I can't believe Cpt.O was completely sober when he took that picture -- I can't imagine any remotely healthy person having a full centimeter of deviation like that without being plastered. : )

It's an easily recreated test. Maybe you'd like to try it and post your own results?

[Bouben 3]

It's an easily recreated test. Maybe you'd like to try it and post your own results?

Yes, that would the best solution to this discussion.

[Echo38 1]

Sure. Send me a digital camera (or, better yet, a digital video camera) by mail, and I'll have the test uploaded the next day.

Folks, I've already done this test several times, and I just did it again five minutes ago. I'm getting unrested pistol figures between 1 and 2 millimeters, measured at the muzzle by a ruler. Do your own damn tests and see for yourselves -- it isn't rocket science -- you don't need a video to find out for yourselves that what I'm saying is true. You don't even need a real pistol -- any object which is similar in size, shape, & mass to a pistol will sufficiently demonstrate the matter.

I don't know why Cpt.O was unable to come anywhere near my figures, but if he wasn't drunk and doesn't have a severe physiological impairment (such as Parkinson's disease), then I can't help but wonder if he's intentionally waving the thing around for dramatic effect. I can't think of any other reason his muzzle would be wandering five times more than mine. (I'm not even a great marksman -- someone who's more practiced than me and/or in better physical condition would have less tremble than I do.)

Edited August 1, 2014 by Echo38