New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[griffz 1]

This weapons sway update is a NON SENS. it's UNPLAYABLE

[-Coulum- 35]

Sigh... I have absolutely no problem wrecking shop with any gun in ArmA 3 with the new weapon sway even on elite difficulty. I understand why they did it I was just trying to get it across that it should be optional for people who are more interested in realism over a scope minigame.

If you have no problem with it, and you understand why its there, why do you still think it is not realistic? Does it not create more realistic results and gameplay? For example in the latest devbranch sway, it is now again possible to make kills at 1.5km with consistency. Is that realism?

Before and after video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aapu...ature=youtu.be

To be honest its the after that looks more realistic. "I used to make these shot all day.. again under 400m marker" And that was the problem. Just because someone exposes themselves for 3 seconds doesn't mean you should be able to instantly pop them from that distance. Basically the new sway had slowed things down and made engagements have more realistic times and distances. Now in dev branch it is back to the same old - more realistic than most games, but still, short firefights at extremely long ranges.

Many people say that it "unplayable" but I think the reality is that its just not playable from the distances and times they are used to. It is playable and more realistic if one stops taking 400m shots for granted, as if one should never miss such a shot.

[dsiOne 10]

Before and after video

That after looks really nice. Obviously you're still learning how to aim with the update though.

[BL1P 35]

Yer the after looks as it should be.

[maturin 12]

New sway is just fine because now it's so easy and intuitive to recover from fatigue. It would still be frustrating without Dslyexci's fatigue meter and TMR's weapon resting, though.

[blackpixxel 53]

Again: I have no problem to have the heaviest weapon sway after running. But the default sway whith zero fatique is just way to much. It is absolutely frustrating when you managed to get a good position to engage the enemy, but then your scope is always everywhere else but not on target. The shooting already feels wierd because of the bad implementation of body armour and the worse medical system. This minigame lets you miss even more bullets, it does not 'feel' good..

I would say: Keep the awesome fatique sway: this is one of the cooles features and helps the immersion alot!

But please, make the default sway closer to what it was before. At the moment it is a fun- and immersion-killer

[VoRtReX-uk 10]

New sway is just fine because now it's so easy and intuitive to recover from fatigue. It would still be frustrating without Dslyexci's fatigue meter and TMR's weapon resting, though.

Oh dear god,

Mods again, why do you need a mod to make it easier.... it should be that hard in the first place.

[j4you 10]

If you have no problem with it, and you understand why its there, why do you still think it is not realistic? Does it not create more realistic results and gameplay? For example in the latest devbranch sway, it is now again possible to make kills at 1.5km with consistency. Is that realism?

To be honest its the after that looks more realistic. "I used to make these shot all day.. again under 400m marker" And that was the problem. Just because someone exposes themselves for 3 seconds doesn't mean you should be able to instantly pop them from that distance. Basically the new sway had slowed things down and made engagements have more realistic times and distances. Now in dev branch it is back to the same old - more realistic than most games, but still, short firefights at extremely long ranges.

Many people say that it "unplayable" but I think the reality is that its just not playable from the distances and times they are used to. It is playable and more realistic if one stops taking 400m shots for granted, as if one should never miss such a shot.

If i have understand you get real experience as shooter...right?

And when you are whit your weapon in prone position you get that swing...right?

Now there are just 2 explanations:

A)You get a heavy weapons as sniper beast rifle ,something like that **http://www.vincelewis.net/20mm.html**...but you are using it whitout bipods, plus you get a scope magnificient x16.

B)You are just trolling.

Even if is possible to continue to play whit this effect, and shot always your target,with some reasoning inconceivable to reality ,that dosent mind that it's the right way for simulate that thing.

Now go on whit that song about......It's more realistic.

More hard dosent mind..more realistic!

Let's me see a video, in real life, where you can see that swing, whit a assault rifle scope x4 in prone position in a polygon!.....no way!

Increase the recoil weapon. (Because now it's very low....too low.)

Decrease the swing weapon when you are close to 0% fatigue. (In relation and encouraged about your posture)

Give more importance when you hold your breath. (Could be acceptable keep stabilize your aim from 0.5-3 sec in steps 0.5-1.0-1.5-2.0-2.5-3.0...always in relation your fatigue and your scope magnification .)

That's all!,,,It's very easy to make it....more immersive and whitout give up to the fatigue effect and..more credible.

....that will be perfect!

They cant introduce a new system, fruit of their imagination,and pass it off as obvious and natural.

Ok ArmA III it's will be even to 2035 year..but the rules of physics and gravity do not change.

Edited July 17, 2014 by j4you

[-Coulum- 35]

If i have understand you get real experience as shooter...right?

And when you are whit your weapon in prone position you get that swing...right?

Now there are just 2 explanations:

In arma it doesn't swing either. Fatigue yourself to the max and go prone with a holo sight. You will see that the rifle barely swings like you say. It drifts slowly from side to side. and up and down. In reality when I have exhausted myself gone prone to shoot my aim is reasonable steady but when I try shooting anything above around a hundred metres it is difficult because my fine muscle control is all jerky and unsteady. When I am not exhausted my aim is steady enough to easily hit targets out to 300 metres. After that though, once again I have to put some effort into controlling my weapon.

Now I have some tests for you.

In real life, go prone and just let go of your rifle. How on target does the rifle stay? Compare that to in game when you let go of the mouse. See how a mouse and a real weapon react so differently?

Next test.

Set up a target 800 - 1000 metres away. Use any optics you'd like. Use any gun you'd like. Adjust for windage and distance as you see fit. Now go prone sight in and shoot that target in less than 5 seconds. I don't know about you, but I sure can't do that, even when wind and distance is already perfectly set. It takes a bit of time and effort. Actually alot of time and effort. Compare that to arma with the latest devbranch sway, where I can easily do that. Can even make a video to demonstrate if you'd like. See how the decrease in sway makes shooting unrealistically easy?

Handling a weapon and handling a mouse are two very different things. What is important to me is not what looks realistic, but what creates realistic results. Sway is a real phenomenon but any exaggeration of it in game is to make up for things that you cannot simulate with a mouse. For example in game it is assumed that we are always in a perfect stance to shoot, always have our sights perfectly aligned, always have our sights perfectly zeroed, and have an absolutely flawless trigger pull. Those are real challenges a shooter has to focus to control that we don't have to worry about at all in game. So bit of extra sway is used to compensate. But in the end it results in more realistic gameplay. Please try to understand this. I can accept if you think the current sway looks unrealistic, if it doesn't feel realistic or if you want some other system to represent all the mentioned challenges to shooting, but in the end the results created by the sway are more realistic (that is, the time and effort required for a successful shot is more realistic). Do you see maybe a bit of the perspective I am coming from?

More hard dosent mind..more realistic!

You are right it doesn't. But things should be realistically hard. And right now shooting in game is still a hell o lot easier than it is in reality, even on a windless day. Its come along way from arma 2, but the stable sway was much closer to reality than the new dev branch. And forget reality. It also created way more intense firefights in my experience.

---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 AM ----------

Sorry but I had to try. Using one of the big ass sniper rifles with an SOS while prone and rested. able to hit a target consistently at around a hit every 7 seconds. At 2200 metres. (Set your zero to 2000 and aim using about a third of a notch below top end of the thick vertical line). I'm pretty sure I could hit further if the zeroing allowed.

Is that what people consider realistic? I know in real life there is wind and environmental/weapon effects making such a shot difficult/impossible. But even ignoring those a shot like this is near impossible, and would require a great degree of skill and effort. Didn't take me much effort and I really am not that skilled...

Anyhow I will shut up now, I know I sound like a broken record :)

Edited July 17, 2014 by -Coulum-

[vegeta897 13]

Handling a weapon and handling a mouse are two very different things. What is important to me is not what looks realistic, but what creates realistic results. Sway is a real phenomenon but any exaggeration of it in game is to make up for things that you cannot simulate with a mouse. For example in game it is assumed that we are always in a perfect stance to shoot, always have our sights perfectly aligned, always have our sights perfectly zeroed, and have an absolutely flawless trigger pull. Those are real challenges a shooter has to focus to control that we don't have to worry about at all in game. So bit of extra sway is used to compensate. But in the end it results in more realistic gameplay. Please try to understand this. I can accept if you think the current sway looks unrealistic, if it doesn't feel realistic or if you want some other system to represent all the mentioned challenges to shooting, but in the end the results created by the sway are more realistic (that is, the time and effort required for a successful shot is more realistic). Do you see maybe a bit of the perspective I am coming from?

This paragraph needs to be put on the top of every page on this site. Arma's goal is to make the mechanics of firing your weapon challenging without artificial factors. Exaggerating the weapon sway compared to how much your weapon would shake around in reality is a means to this end. Dealing with this sway is the game equivalent of steadying your weapon and taking aim in real life.

[ratszo 17]

For context, let's look at top ten longest confermed sniper kills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills

Arma snipers have it much too easy..., to the point of absurdity.

[silverwave 11]

This is a very interesting debate. It really shows that ARMA players are really dedicated and want nothing but the best experience! :)

I also really like -Coulum- 's post.

There's two side of the medal.

Realism VS Gameplay.

Realism is not always compatible with what is fun gameplay wise and devs must always balance between the two and make compromises.

No, the sway may not be very realistic, but has it has been stated in one of the OPREP "[...] we want players to actually understand the game mechanics in order to give them an opportunity to learn and manage their behaviour." So, really, the goal here is to offer challenging mechanics that gives one's opportunity to learn and become more and more proficient.

I think it has succeeded; shooting is now hard but since it's not as random has previously, with some practice, someone CAN become good at it.

It does have downsides though, because I also experienced firefights at around 50 meters, on prone position, without any cover, and we threw about 30 rounds at each other before one got hit.

So, yes, it might still need some fine tuning, and I'm sure BI will, but it's heading in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

For context, let's look at top ten longest confermed sniper kills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills

Arma snipers have it much too easy..., to the point of absurdity.

Sniping is easy at medium, close range. But Long range is another story. The Longest kill i achieved was 2.3 clicks, and i believe that is the furthest any Sniper in game currently can go. I planned it out nicely during a game of wasteland on Stratis. I set up on a Radio tower, and the enemy was at Camp Maxwell on the helipad with a quad bike. The shot took 3.3 seconds to hit, and when it did, it felt good, but it was by NO means, easy. Now, i'm certain that it's not as realistic as real life ballistics, but i had to account for elevation, and sway, and depended on luck. I think maybe with the DLC Marksman, it would be interesting to see wind play a factor in things like trajectory.

[ratszo 17]

Sniping is easy at medium, close range. But Long range is another story. The Longest kill i achieved was 2.3 clicks, and i believe that is the furthest any Sniper in game currently can go. I planned it out nicely during a game of wasteland on Stratis. I set up on a Radio tower, and the enemy was at Camp Maxwell on the helipad with a quad bike. The shot took 3.3 seconds to hit, and when it did, it felt good, but it was by NO means, easy. Now, i'm certain that it's not as realistic as real life ballistics, but i had to account for elevation, and sway, and depended on luck. I think maybe with the DLC Marksman, it would be interesting to see wind play a factor in things like trajectory.

Note those Afghanistan shots. Wonder how high the altitude ..., above 10,000 feet?

Gotta love this marksman:

Billy Dixon June 1874 1,406 m (1,538 yd) Sharps .50-90 United States Civilian Buffalo Hunter American Indian Wars.

'Old Bill knew how to shoot..., iron sights.

[down8 30]

Again: I have no problem to have the heaviest weapon sway after running. But the default sway whith zero fatique is just way to much. It is absolutely frustrating when you managed to get a good position to engage the enemy, but then your scope is always everywhere else but not on target. The shooting already feels wierd because of the bad implementation of body armour and the worse medical system. This minigame lets you miss even more bullets, it does not 'feel' good..

I would say: Keep the awesome fatique sway: this is one of the cooles features and helps the immersion alot!

But please, make the default sway closer to what it was before. At the moment it is a fun- and immersion-killer

I agree with all.

[faire 10]

I also feel that the "nerf" of sway in dev went too far. I fully agree with what Coulum said: shooting over 100m should require skill. The standard should be what is achievable in reality - not to be hyper realistic, but to help the firefights feel more like reality (that's the goal of this game). In FPS the only thing that usually takes skill is shooting fast, not aiming well enough, because the game does the most work for you. Pointing with mouse is too easy, adding predictable sway (which can be learned and mastered) requires the player to learn shooting well and help the fire-fights feel more real and intense. I would propose keeping the sway generally and lowering it in prone position until we get weapon resting.

The second factor that should stay in game is punishing excessive loads and benefiting light loads which balances out the advantage the bigger load gives you.

[-Coulum- 35]

Sniping is easy at medium, close range. But Long range is another story. The Longest kill i achieved was 2.3 clicks, and i believe that is the furthest any Sniper in game currently can go. I planned it out nicely during a game of wasteland on Stratis. I set up on a Radio tower, and the enemy was at Camp Maxwell on the helipad with a quad bike. The shot took 3.3 seconds to hit, and when it did, it felt good, but it was by NO means, easy. Now, i'm certain that it's not as realistic as real life ballistics, but i had to account for elevation, and sway, and depended on luck. I think maybe with the DLC Marksman, it would be interesting to see wind play a factor in things like trajectory.

The thing is I think people misunderstand what "medium, close range and long range" is in reality. In reality long range shooting is in and around 1km. above 1500 metres is extreme. 2300 is ridiculous. So right now with the dev branch sway close medium and long range shots are easy, while extreme ranges require a bit of concentration but are more than possible for anybody to achieve. This is a problem in my eyes.

[Bouben 3]

I fully support Coulum's opinions about weapon sway.

I wish devs just nerfed it bit for prone positions only, but they should keep it as introduced in 1.24 stable for other stances.

[roshnak 41]

The thing is I think people misunderstand what "medium, close range and long range" is in reality. In reality long range shooting is in and around 1km. above 1500 metres is extreme. 2300 is ridiculous. So right now with the dev branch sway close medium and long range shots are easy, while extreme ranges require a bit of concentration but are more than possible for anybody to achieve. This is a problem in my eyes.

Right. This is probably the best argument in favor of even exaggerated weapon sway. There are way too many snipers in Arma. Too many engagements boil down to players taking pot shots at each other (or the AI) from 500+ meters away.

Edited July 17, 2014 by roshnak

[roshnak 41]

Yeah, wind effecting bullets is supposed to be coming in the Marksman DLC. But that's not coming out for several months, so this is a good way to make marksmanship appropriately difficult until then.

On the other hand, the sway doesn't make it significantly difficult to shoot at long range if you give it a chance and are willing to learn the system. Most people came onto the forums to throw a fit within hours of downloading the patch.

P.S. Long distance shooting in ACE was dead easy.

[dsiOne 10]

Yeah, wind effecting bullets is supposed to be coming in the Marksman DLC. But that's not coming out for several months, so this is a good way to make marksmanship appropriately difficult until then.

On the other hand, the sway doesn't make it significantly difficult to shoot at long range if you give it a chance and are willing to learn the system. Most people came onto the forums to throw a fit within hours of downloading the patch.

P.S. Long distance shooting in ACE was dead easy.

Yep, it's really easy to aim. This is like complaining about having to counteract recoil :/

[UltimateBawb 1]

Stop crying, aiming isn't like in CSGO in real life.

[roshnak 41]

Stop crying, aiming isn't like in CSGO in real life.

On the other hand, he could be talking about counteracting any kind of recoil. Remember when Arma 3 added manual recoil control and everyone threw a fit? I do.

If you want to talk about what happens in real life, maybe you would like to explain why it was more realistic when everyone could easily engage targets out to 2km with an M14.

Edited July 18, 2014 by roshnak

[dsiOne 10]

On the other hand, he could be talking about counteracting any recoil. Remember when Arma 3 added manual recoil control and everyone threw a fit? I do.

If you want to talk about what happens in real life, maybe you would like to explain why it was more realistic when everyone could easily engage targets out to 2km with an M14.

Have you noticed how it's been, what, 3 days? And the complaining is already almost dead? :confused:

[VoRtReX-uk 10]

Only because the dev branch has to right....