Israel General

[Xalteva 10]

Woah ! one at once ... And i won't bother answering Vilas and his false propaganda as he hasn't posted any valid proofs for that ! and please avoid me videos from CBN news which are extremly biased and lead by christian extremists ... and for the last time (it's becoming boring with vilas),i have never denied the existence of extremism in islam world,but stated that it' also existent in other religions/ideologies ! (obvious stuff)

Jewish racists are very active in France ,i posted a video of them during a manifestation in Paris attacking pro-palestinians : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

There are many videos about it on YT,but they're mainly french ! that's why i don't bother posting them.

@Variable

Even though i was referring to the era that predates the arabo-palestinian conflict ,i can't deny husseini's radicalism ... but don't forget about the context ! everyone was looking for allies,Nazis used Husseini for sure but british also used jews and killed many arabs as well according to the same link you posted !

@Dwarden

Fatah is the opposite faction to Hamas, less radical, more tolerant and while they don't like Israel

they came up with some compromises ...

In other words,they were well suited to Israel's interests ... Hamas has never claimed those executions,but recognized arresting traitors collaborating with the ennemy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Hamas_political_violence_in_Gaza

Can we start detailing Israel's palmares i mentioned earlier now ? it won't be constructive,but it looks like you like this way ;)

[Variable 322]

@Variable

Even though i was referring to the era that predates the arabo-palestinian conflict ,i can't deny husseini's radicalism ...

No you didn't, you said "in any moment in history". Having trouble to remember what propaganda lies come out from your own mouth?

If you claim that jews were persecuted by arab muslims in any moment of history,you will have to show some proofs ! and good luck with that ;)

And try to remember that "context" applies both ways, you seem to be thinking that it applies only to Arabs.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Jewish racists are very active in France ,i posted a video of them during a manifestation in Paris attacking pro-palestinians

No, they aren't "very active", i hardly know people who have ever heard of this very small group, and i already proved you wrong as i told you that the fight happened when pro palestinian demonstrators left the main procession and go several streets from there to fight them. But go on with your low level propaganda.

[vilas 477]

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571970/Muslim-apostates-threatened-over-Christianity.html

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims <worth seeing, list of people who converted to Christianity and now need Police protection cause they are threatened to be killed

[Xalteva 10]

History is good ,it helps you not forgetting ... and Israel's current terrorism is overshadowing what's left of its legitimity ! 547 civilian kills in just two weeks ...

[Variable 322]

History is good ,it helps you not forgetting ... and Israel's current terrorism is overshadowing what's left of its legitimity ! 547 civilian kills in just two weeks ...

Great tactic, when proved wrong just ignore any facts presented, and say - "hey look at what Israel is doing!!!" You must have received your education with Bashar al Assad.

[Xalteva 10]

No, they aren't "very active", i hardly know people who have ever heard of this very small group, and i already proved you wrong as i told you that the fight happened when pro palestinian demonstrators left the main procession and go several streets from there to fight them. But go on with your low level propaganda.

Not to mention that your president has shown full support to the Gaza bombarding ! and that he wears a kippa in the dinner of the CRIF (similar event to APAIC in USA),or your prime minister claiming that he is linked to Israel through his wife (wtf ?!) , while France claims itself as a secular country ,the same reason they used to prohibit veiled women in public organisms ! this is also low level propaganda ?

And why the pro palestinian manifestation was prevented by police during last week ? your country is supposed to be DA COUNTRY OF FREEDOM ...

France,has recently sent its military forces to Mali to protect civilians against terrorism ... how kind <3 <3 ! maybe that was the price for leaning to Tel Aviv ! your president has no idea how to take France out of its economic crisis ;)

[vilas 477]

500 civilians were killed in one day when Islamists attacked Christian town in Nigeria ca. 3 or 4 months ago

but as Dwarden said - Hamas uses civilian homes to hide artillery or launchers etc.

it is very sad situation, but it was caused by Hamas tactics

rocket launcher set near block of flats - cannot make any good to local area

Hamas wants violence cause then some radicals are in power,

if Palestinians were using political methods, international negotiations etc. probably there would be no war and everyone would look bad at Israel, but when Hamas locates weapons like this:

it was video posted by Hamas itself

than collateral dammage happens,

to not make colony, going into Palestinian land, maybe good choice for Israel would be building artificial island,

Arabs in Emirates built such one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Jumeirah

i do not know what is cost of such invest in Israeli location,

also there would be good to know what is Palestinian support for radical vs. non radical groups,

cause non radical groups could negotiate peace, and as before Palestinians would work in Israel, but when someone sends suicide bombers, than Israelis close border causing harm to some Palestinians who than have no jobs,

finding solution there would be easier without religion saying to attack others (both side radicals, cause radical Jews fuel the war for sure),

the best would be stopping military action and wining election in Israel by those who want peace but under conditions that Isreali cities will not be bombed by rockets or suicide bombers will not come,

if Palestinian side would not attack, than UN should force Israel to not make colonies in come areas, because those who make colonies are probably extremist Jews believing that "Yahve promissed it" ,

bad things was that UN/international community not forced more Isreali gov. to not go deeper, but as said - Jewish lobby in different countries were making all to not make any pressure on Israeli gov. radicals,

guilt is not on 1 side,

- from one hand there is Isalmic extremism "lets kill all Jews",

- from other hand there is "Yahve promissed this" Jewish extemism,

if Israel had enough resources, maybe building artificial islands like Emirates make, would help, it is cost full, but maybe will help

[mistyronin 1181]

Repeating this lie won't make it the truth. What happened was not "violent removal of natives". These people and their leadership opened a war in an attempt to remove the Jews from this place. It was their declared objective, "throw the Jews to the sea". The Jews fought back and won. It was war the Jews didn't started.

It's not a lie, just check the maps and statistics I have shown you, it's pretty clear.

Just for once imagine that is not your country but someone else and judge the cold data. And then think what had to be for the natives of the place to see how millions of foreigners were installing in their lands, forcing them to move to closed areas, and all because of a millennial God's word and a holocaust that happened 2000 km away.

Would you try to fight that invaders? BTW if Arabs hated so much Jews as you said, why they didn't "remove" them when they were a majority, after all the Jews before WW2 were a tiny minority and it would have been really easy for a big Arab majority, in fact there is not even thousands of dead nor anything similar before the illegal massive arrival of Jews.

Funny point is that Jews instead of ask for retribution from those who harmed them they decided to "punish" the natives of the land they believed it was theirs ( by God's word ).

For instance they could have asked to create a Hebrew state in Germany, removing the Germans from that region ( after all there had been Jews in Germany for more than one thousand years, so it would be the same case as in Palestine but with Justice ). Of course that no Western nor Eastern power would have allowed that and prefer them to mess up with someone in another continent.

There was no sovereign in this land, no state of any kind was declared at that time. Many jews have came from abroad and bought land from arabs and settled in it. In no dictionary such act is a crime.

So that makes it right to settle in the territories were others are living and force them to go because you don't like their culture? Even with violence ( and because God's will of course )?

And yeah you can buy the land someone is living ( just look how the USA bought half of the country from Russia, Spain and France, obviously without caring about nor asking to the natives ( or the british in Australia, and so other places ).

That's called ethnic cleanse and it has been considered a crime in a lot of occasions.

So giving birth is a crime now if you were a Jew in Israel? You really should be ashamed of yourself.

I haven't said that, but it's quite amazing how you twist my words all the time. It's quite pointless to try to have a debate with you if instead of rebating arguments with data your strategy is to twist and try to denigrate my words.

I have gave you neutral data, from maps, to demographics.

Remove your Kippah for a while and analyze the data.

Edited July 22, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

so you think that it was persistence of Israeli state that led to such violence ?

would be good to know how Jihad and such things were present before WW2,

what if there was no country Israel, do you think - looking at ISIS, Syrian war, Jihad etc. that Jews would be alive there ?

and where in other place Jews could have their state ? why Jews should be deprived of having their own state, their own government ? are they someone worse that they cannot have state in place where they live since 5000 years ?

history of WW2 turned like it turned, colonialism ended (previously maybe Jews ware safe thanx to colonial countries ? )

maybe lack of religious violence and pre-holocaust was caused by colonial armies protection ?

it is like history of fall of Soviet Union or Yugoslavia - authoritarian gov. kept people under pression and they not fought ethnically/religiously, "big brother" fallen down, and everyone wanted freedom, independence, national state, his own religion etc. causing wars after fall of those 2 countries,

for sure we cannot turn back the time , now Israel should try to find solution for more effective farm-industry (to have food from limited area of land)

Edited July 22, 2014 by vilas

[Dwarden 1125]

@mistyRonin, you somehow forgot to mention there are 1.5+ million of Arabs living in Israel w/o issue with citizenship ...

(this count is w/o those who are residents (refused accept Israel citizenship) mainly from territory gained by Israel in wars (started by the others))

@mistyRonin + @Xalteva

I would really like to hear your comment on each of the videos in post http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180045-Israel-General&p=2736458&viewfull=1#post2736458

watch them whole ... otherwise your answer would be incomplete

[mistyronin 1181]

so you think that it was persistence of Israeli state that led to such violence ?

would be good to know how Jihad and such things were present before WW2,

what if there was no country Israel, do you think - looking at ISIS, Syrian war, Jihad etc. that Jews would be alive there ?

There has been a Jewish minority in Judea for centuries, with Arabs being the majority in relatively peace. The only game changer in the situation that sparkled violence was the flood of millions of Jews.

BTW talking about holy wars, I have to remember you that in Judea: Christians, Jews and Muslims lived also in relatively peace, before the crusades.

and where in other place Jews could have their state ?

I have said it already. Who were the ones who killed millions of Jews in Europe? They could have had a state in part of Germany, as I have said Jews had lived there for at least a thousand years.

So we will be talking in the same situation, Jews being a minority for a long while in a region, creating a State, Government and so on. And all that would be more fair, as Germans ( the Third Reich ) took and some bought the Jews lands, stole their money and goods.

why Jews should be deprived of having their own state, their own government ? are they someone worse that they cannot have state in place where they live since 5000 years ?

You could say the same for a LOT of nations, for instance all the native Americans, or the native Australians, and a long etc. Why they can't have their own state, their own government? In the lands they have lived for more than 10.000 years!

@mistyRonin, you somehow forgot to mention there are 1.5+ million of Arabs living in Israel w/o issue with citizenship ...

I'm talking about the origin of the mess, that is what provoked the actual situation.

BTW I have seen that videos, but they give me no new info.

[Xalteva 10]

Yeah ! they also hide in Hospitals ? and what about the children on the beach last week ? who got bombarded by a military boat ... this "Hamas hiding behind civs" excuse is irrelevant ... Gaza is a small area less than 360km² ! besides the fact that those civilians support Hamas , Israel just wants them to pay the price for that.

If Palestine had its army i could have accepted this reasoning ! but they are unarmed people basically ! few years ago,they were just throwing stones at Israeli soldiers ... they moved then to suicidary guys ! and now to rockets and more tactical operations ,they do what they can to resist and that's it !

They can actually go live in Dubai ! their king has engaged lately some secret discussions with Israeli governement about solutions to annihilate Hamas,and this was reported on an Israeli TV channel ;)

http://drrichswier.com/2014/07/20/united-arab-emirates-secretly-offers-funding-israels-operation-protective-edge-defeat-hamas/

Otherwise,they have more than needed to build an artificial island since they're receiving the lion's part of USA's aids (knowing that they are a relatively rich country),in other words ,they are getting American's hardwork money to make more clonies and kill palestinian children ;)

Edited July 22, 2014 by Xalteva

[mistyronin 1181]

Vilas, let's make it simple, with your same arguments.

Why shouldn't the Basques have their own state, and gov, and everything, and close the rest of people from Western Europe.

After all, Basques are the only truly natives of Western Europe. They have lived there for more than 10.000 years.

All Basques immigrants from all over the world should come to Euskadi and spread out taking all their native lands ( that would take ALL the north of Spain, and most of France ). The Spanish and French could be closed in little pieces of land with walls and under strict Basque vigilance.

Same with Finns in Northern Europe and the Baltic Region. Are you gonna be willing to give all the north of Poland? and live in closed spaces?

[Xalteva 10]

@mistyRonin + @Xalteva

I would really like to hear your comment on each of the videos in post http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180045-Israel-General&p=2736458&viewfull=1#post2736458

watch them whole ... otherwise your answer would be incomplete

Only,if vilas and Variable give their comments on the children on the beach killed by Israeli army ! because that was the event that turned me on.

@vilas

Hiding rockets and artillery pieces in civilian houses ? :D this is funny since i don't think that ISraeli army has gone that deep into Gaza to find out,they lost 25 soldiers on the outskirts,let alone going inside !

@MistyRonin

Vilas is just using the old good tactic of "the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend" ! he claims religion is the worst thing that happened to the world,but still defends jews and their 5000 years old story right from the holy book against muslims !

OMG, the guy even after watching muslims in myanmar being savagely treated by buddhists commented and said that it was because Talibans destroyed a buddha statue in Afghanistan :O

Edited July 22, 2014 by Xalteva

[vilas 477]

do i said that Basques shouldn't ?

why not

problem is in past , in "empires", in history, now people should do all , to not pay lives for mistakes/deeds/greed of kings/tsars/priests/nobles which lived several hundreds years ago

EU was thinking that multiculti will work and we gonna build one mixed united EU , but due to for example religion, it appears that multiculti is not working, cause due to religon some minorities build ghettos and not asimilate

people who somehow mix and assimilate with each other - avoid violence, wars etc.

people who keep very strongly their other religion, cause tensions, ghetto blows up and war happens cause noone know compromise (and minority doesn't want to integrate) ,

it is hard to believe in safety of Jews there, when you look how Sunnis kill Sheets and vice versa, like in past Protestans fought with Catholics and Catholic with Orthodox

so if the same religion but different branch of religion fight , how to secure lifes of other religion guys in it ?

[mistyronin 1181]

it is hard to believe in safety of Jews there, when you look how Sunnis kill Sheets and vice versa, like in past Protestans fought with Catholics and Catholic with Orthodox

so if the same religion but different branch of religion fight , how to secure lifes of other religion guys in it ?

Jews have been relatively safe in Judea for centuries, even if they were a tiny minority, and the Muslims were the majority ( fact that probably some Arabs regret nowadays ). Why would that have changed if the Jews didn't tried to massively immigrate there?

And yeah Sunni and Shea Arabs have been fighting also for centuries in that same region.

If even before crusades time, the Muslims that were already majority in Judea were protecting the Christian pilgrims, obviously that changed after the Christians thought that they had the right to live there and wanted to massively move there ( fact that my country is also to blame, as one of my main kings started a Crusade himself ).

BTW I'm quite surprise that you wouldn't mind that Finns ruled over the north of Poland, and Polish were reduced to certain areas.

Edited July 22, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Xalteva 10]

Jews have been relatively safe in Judea for centuries, even if they were a tiny minority, and the Muslims were the majority ( fact that probably some Arabs regret nowadays ). Why would that have changed if the Jews didn't tried to massively immigrate there?

And yeah Sunni and Shea Arabs have been fighting also for centuries in that same region.

If even before crusades time, the Muslims that were already majority in Judea were protecting the Christian pilgrims, obviously that changed after the Christians thought that they had the right to live there and wanted to massively move there ( fact that my country is also to blame, as one of my main kings started a Crusade himself ).

BTW I'm quite surprise that you wouldn't mind that Finns ruled over the north of Poland, and Polish were reduced to certain areas.

Not to mention that during the mongol invasion of Europ (looking for a link on the How),muslims played a major role stopping them ! otherwise ,it was going to be a huge genocid ! the battle of Mohi is an example of what was waiting Europ at that time :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi

I lost any hope in having a fair discussion with vilas ! he posted links on Apostasy in Islam,that's good ! even though,i'd like to hear something from a muslim scholar about it !

But many of his statements are based on just feelings,hatred and "my friend in London like" arguments ... bring proofs and i will shut up ;)

Edited July 22, 2014 by Xalteva

[Variable 322]

It's not a lie, just check the maps and statistics I have shown you, it's pretty clear.

I don't argue with the maps, they add nothing to the discussion because they support my claims as much as they support yours.

Would you try to fight that invaders?

You fail to understand the situation at that time. There was no sovereign state. There was no "Israel" nor "Palestine". Before '48 Jews that came here established settlements on their own and mostly lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors. The Arabs had no sovereignty over this land, and no unified national identity or narrative. They even identified themselves just as "Arabs". The arrival of Jews to this land was backed by the Balfour declaration so you can see that the powers of that time did support the idea of establishing a state for the Jewish people in the land of Israel.

BTW if Arabs hated so much Jews as you said, why they didn't "remove" them when they were a majority, after all the Jews before WW2 were a tiny minority and it would have been really easy for a big Arab majority, in fact there is not even thousands of dead nor anything similar before the illegal massive arrival of Jews.

Well, because they were poorly organized and badly coordinated. But if you had any better understanding of the situation you wouldn't have asked that because you had known that even six regular armies of six Arab nations invaded Israel in the second stage of the '48 war and even they were defeated.

Funny point is that Jews instead of ask for retribution from those who harmed them they decided to "punish" the natives of the land they believed it was theirs ( by God's word ).

No one tried to punish anyone, this is a childish view of history. Jews have long ties to this land by history, by language, by culture and by religion, and as you admit there was always a Jewish presence in this land, which goes way back to ancient times, it was only natural to establish the state of Israel here. Especially since there was no other state in this land. Sure, there were indigenous citizens, the Arabs, but Jews had hoped to either have a country for "all its citizens" and later on supported the UN proposal for dividing the land to two states. It was the Arabs that refused and became violent. Believe me, they would have been very happy to roll back the time and accept that proposal. Too bad they chose war instead, that in many ways manifest itself in all the wars since then.

For instance they could have asked to create a Hebrew state in Germany, removing the Germans from that region ( after all there had been Jews in Germany for more than one thousand years, so it would be the same case as in Palestine but with Justice ). Of course that no Western nor Eastern power would have allowed that and prefer them to mess up with someone in another continent.

That's a great idea! Why not build a country among the people who tried to exterminate us just a second ago? The mere suggestion of this idea shows how little you understand the relevant historical occurrences and their meaning.

So that makes it right to settle in the territories were others are living and force them to go because you don't like their culture? Even with violence ( and because God's will of course )?

You are again repeating nonsense and not reading into what facts I was presenting before you. At first, the lands were bought. Is this a crime? No. The arabs willingly sold them. You do understand the meaning of transaction, right? It does not constitute as forcing someone away if he sells you his land. Up to '48 all lands were acquired this way. And in '48, once the Arabs tried to throw all the Jews to the sea, they lost and in the war they lost MORE lands. Tough luck, if you start a war you better be ready to lose your land.

And yeah you can buy the land someone is living ( just look how the USA bought half of the country from Russia, Spain and France, obviously without caring about nor asking to the natives ( or the british in Australia, and so other places ). That's called ethnic cleanse and it has been considered a crime in a lot of occasions.

How can you write that and not see the the difference? In these examples the lands were bought from sovereign states. In Israel, back then, there was no sovereign state. The lands were bought from private people and settled by Jewish agencies and private Jewish people. A crime? No. Ethnic cleansing? No.

I haven't said that, but it's quite amazing how you twist my words all the time.

Oh, you didn't? Let's read again your post shall we:

The crime was to remove violently the people that were native from there and their culture, and then flood the new occupied lands with millions of people and colonies ( having as many children as possible to become the majority ).

Can't understand your own post? Let me help you: You were literally explaining that the crime was composed from - a. violently removing people, b. flood the land with as many children as possible to become the majority. Your words. I was not the only one that referred to that vicious statement, Villas did as well.

Remove your Kippah for a while and analyze the data.

Going for low blows now? Too bad, I'm an atheist, I wear no Kippah.

[Dwarden 1125]

Otherwise,they have more than needed to build an artificial island since they're receiving the lion's part of USA's aids (knowing that they are a relatively rich country),in other words ,they are getting American's hardwork money to make more clonies and kill palestinian children ;)

Palestine (both areas) since 1994's Oslo accords received more 'help' in funding than countries after World War 2 in Marshall plan ... so please stop claiming only Israel gets money ...

the value is usually dozens millions per month, at peaks after 2000 the Palestian Authority was getting between 1 to 2 billions USD / year from aid by EU, USA, Arab Countries

(non-URNWA non-UN so the total inbound aid is way higher, add own taxes and other 'shady' profits e.g. from smuggling goods)

guess from where was that 1 billion dollars on Arafat's private swiss accounts ... the bankrupt leaders of all the radical factions ...

these who are in control of PA have yachts, luxury residences on private exclusive real estates ...

[Xalteva 10]

Dwarden,let me explain one thing about my way of thinking !

I never defend politicians,they are unstable ,unpredictible and most likely unreliable ... like ABu Mazin right now who can't even go to the court to claim Israel's crimes in this war! Husseini bet on the wrong horse and allied to the Nazis,he failed ... Yasser Arafat played too much on the defensive line and gave up many times to Israel,as far as i am concerned,he brought nothing to the palestinian cause !

Concerning USA donations,currently Israel is on the top !

@Variable

Yes,at the begining they were selling lands but how do you justify current demolishing of palestinians houses and colinizing their lands !

Edited July 22, 2014 by Xalteva

[Variable 322]

Yeah ! they also hide in Hospitals ? and what about the children on the beach last week ? who got bombarded by a military boat ...

That was a horrible accident, I hope that the people in charge will answer for that. When looking at actions, you can't ignore the intention which in every common human society is the basis for judgement. That was an accident, Hamas is trying to kill Israeli children intentionally and deliberately, as part of a warfare strategy directed by a policy.

this "Hamas hiding behind civs" excuse is irrelevant ... Gaza is a small area less than 360km² ! besides the fact that those civilians support Hamas , Israel just wants them to pay the price for that.

The Hamas HQ is located in the Al Shifa Hospital, because they know Israel will never bomb it. "Gaza is so crowded we have no where else to go other than that HOSPITAL".

The primary objective of the IDF ground offensive is to remove the terror tunnels threat. These are used to reach and attack Israeli settlements where civilian men women and children are living. These tunnels are apparently the national project of the Hamas, now it's clear where all the money and the cement were used. Instead of rebuilding Gaza they have built an underground network of terror tunnels. Poor Hamas that have nothing to fight with.

This war is not against the Palestinians, it's against a murderous terrorist organization.

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:24 ----------

@Variable

Yes,at the begining they were selling lands but how do you justify current demolishing of palestinians houses and colinizing their lands !

If that's what you are referring to, the houses demolished are of terrorists that murdered Israelis. However, I'm against this, I won't defend that.

I won't defend the settlements in the West Bank as well. I think Israel should evacuate most of them, trade land with the future palestine for the main concentration of settlements that won't get evacuated, and allow for the establishment of Palestinian state alongside of Israel. But you know what Israeli right wingers answer to that? They show me what happened in the last area Israel evacuated, Gaza, and promise me that if Israel were ever to evacuate the west bank, Hamas will take over there as well, and launch rockets to Israel as it does now from Gaza. And you know what? I don't have a good answer for that.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Variable

[Xalteva 10]

The Hamas HQ is located in the Al Shifa Hospital, because they know Israel will never bomb it. "Gaza is so crowded we have no where else to go other than that HOSPITAL".

The primary objective of the IDF ground offensive is to remove the terror tunnels threat. These are used to reach and attack Israeli settlements where civilian men women and children are living. These tunnels are apparently the national project of the Hamas, now it's clear where all the money and the cement were used. Instead of rebuilding Gaza they have built an underground network of terror tunnels. Poor Hamas that have nothing to fight with.

This war is not against the Palestinians, it's against a murderous terrorist organization.

You talk about Hamas like if they were IDF's equal ... explosions made by Hamas rockets are like that explosion from Breaking Bad's famous scene (This is not meth!!) ! ,i even start believing that those rockets were just made to scare ,there is a huge difference between intentions and what's actually happening !

Palestinians see in Hamas the last defensive power they have,ofcourse they are using "uncommon" methods to surive ! Sheikh Yassin was killed on his wheelchair near a mosque by a missile ! they most likely don't want to trust Israel's fariness after that ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

I don't argue with the maps, they add nothing to the discussion because they support my claims as much as they support yours.

Are you serious? So in one map you have a little tiny minority of Jewish owned places and a huge majority of Arabs, and in the nowadays one you have Jewish filling a huge majority of Jewish land and a little minority of Arabs.

Funny thing is that if we took maps from the last centuries, and would look like the first one ( even with more Arabs ).

And you don't see anything obvious?

You fail to understand the situation at that time. There was no sovereign state.

Well you use the same arguments as the ones who committed the genocide against the American Indians ( or the Australians natives ). There was no sovereign state! They were just a bunch of crazy natives poorly organized and badly coordinated that deserved to be "civilized" ( as you should know the American Indians were organized, and had their own councils, and organizations in the same fashion as the Palestinians ).

there was always a Jewish presence in this land, which goes way back to ancient times, it was only natural to establish the state of Israel here.

So according to you, for instance would only be natural that Basques create a state and take the lands from all the north of Spain and all France. It goes back to even prehistoric times. Who cares about who is living there now. Or the Finns should rule all over the Baltic zone, who cares about Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Russia, etc. It would be only NATURAL!

Same with native Americans, that should create a state and reduce the US and Canada to mere reserves.

Especially since there was no other state in this land.

Of course not, it was lawless like OK corral. The pure Far West. There was no governments, nor anything... The British Colonial one was just made of jesters. Have you even read your own words?

Sure, there were indigenous citizens, the Arabs, but Jews had hoped to either have a country for "all its citizens" and later on supported the UN proposal for dividing the land to two states.

Yeah, Jews that were the tiny minority had planes to rule over "all its citizens" and the Arab majority was really bad because they refused it :j: Seriously...

That's a great idea! Why not build a country among the people who tried to exterminate us just a second ago? The mere suggestion of this idea shows how little you understand the relevant historical occurrences and their meaning.

So it's better to massively and illegally take another territory were a few of us have been living for thousands of years and create a state there to rule over the big majority of people who have been living there for centuries even if they don't want ( do I have to remember again the British Concentration Camps for Illegal Jews ? ).

Than to create a country with part of the territory of those who had tried to exterminate us, but that have been defeated and condemned internationally; and which country is controlled by the winners of the war ( so its IMPOSSIBLE that they could do anything to us ).

You are again repeating nonsense and not reading into what facts I was presenting before you.

Read more about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Illegal_Jewish_immigration_and_insurgency

Oh, you didn't? Let's read again your post shall we:

You seem to have missed one thing, while rereading my post, maybe a parenthesis?

Going for low blows now? Too bad, I'm an atheist, I wear no Kippah.

Yeah, I have seen that your reading comprehension is limited. Let me explain it in simple English:

That was a metaphor. Which means not literally. Basically, the point was: Forget that you are an Israeli citizen for a second and check the cold facts.

But never mind, I though you were trying to be neutral and understand why all this mess. But obviously I was mistaken as you seem to be quite biased ( I don't blame you, its logical in the actual situation, that's precisely why its gonna be an almost never ending conflict ).

And as I have never had much fun in arguing with a wall, and its not likely that you will open your mind, I'll politely ignore your posts.

[Xalteva 10]

I don't have a good answer for that.

When then Hamas won't have as much sympathy as it does right now !