PL-01 Concept Tank

[igneous01 19]

Has anyone seen this thing before? I had no idea that we were working on something like this ^^

It looks really futuristic, hard to say if it will be viable as a tank or IFV, but I would love to see a model of this in Arma 3.

[Jawzahr 10]

From what I have heard, it's an MBT with a primary purpose of being stealthy.

---------- Post added at 07:15 ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 ----------

Also, here a some links that have some information and a few more videos.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/31/pl-01-stealth-tank_n_5061795.html

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-polands-stealthy-pl-01-the-tank-of-the-future-1554395391

Really hope to see this implemented in the game.

Maybe an EU faction with FELIN soldiers for infantry and have the PL-01 as their MBT?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Jawzahr
Double post

[instagoat 133]

Neat Idea, very similar to the CV-90 with the 120mm turret, though. Very post-space-age look, too.

[vilas 477]

i will soon do it for Arma2

it is other concept of tank, that suppose to be light, it is idea of light tank, simply our Polish industry looks for product that will be commercial succes and sales can go and give employment, our broken industry desperately look for product that will be bought, plus industry want to show to public"look we can produce good modern stuff but politicians do not buy it and order BW/US-phased out stuff", our industry shows "we can", and wait when public opinion will say "we want our products not another phased out ex-BW stuff",

idea is make light tank, which is ca. 35 tonnes, fast, low visible for ground radar-guided systems, because on modern war field electronic guided missiles are now majority of AT systems,

we cannot prevent being targeted with laser, but if rader guide can be avoided, why not try to do it,

but first of all it is concept and little show off , it is not even in phase of fully functioning prototype, it is in phase of concept,

Anders IFV was in much advanced stage , BWP2000 was in much more advanced stage - but none of them were realized by MoD, so probably this is next type of vehicles "what our engineers can if they want" and next which will end "what our politicians can kill to put money into themsevs"

Anders was the same idea - counterpart of Merkava+Bradley, 4 seats, good armor , 30-35 t weight, Anders project was stopped and it now serves only in my addon ;)

the same with BWP2000 (30 tones for territorial defence), we planned IFV like Bradley, but politicians said we must buy Patria because it can be deployed by transport plain in A-stan (below 20 tones)

Edited April 21, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

From the stats I saw I can conclude that they gave up on armor to make this thing light and stealthy. It weights only 35t wich is roughly half the weight of a modern MBT. It could use a more powerfull engine. 70km/h road and 50km/h offroad speed is nothing extraordinary, and quite bad for such a "light" vehicle. It has potential when used as Tank hunter (not frontline MBT) but it is a little bit too slow for that and it is too big (roughly the same size as a MBT). The Fire rate of 6 shots per minute is simply bad. Even T-72 autoloaders are faster. Stealth does sound nice on paper but it won´t help this thing at all when it still can be picked up by any tank with FLIR.

In conclusion: I´m not really sure what the Polish military tries to achieve with this thing.

Frontlie MBT? With that Armor and that reloading speed? Nope.

Tank Hunter? Not with that size and that speed.

Infantry support? A BMP-2 is better at that job than this. The reloading time is simply too slow to be effective in that role.

My guess is that somebody had the idea to make a stealth tank and it had to be really cheap (altough I don´t know the price it will have, it could be very much overpriced).

My guess is that they will try to export it. "Stealth Tank" sounds wonderfull in marketing.

[vilas 477]

read my post Tonci cause you made mistake, first is "what the Polish military tries to achieve with this thing"

not army, but industry, one company called OBRUM - it is company product and company want to show they can design products, not army, army now develops MSBS rifle to replace AK-weapons (Beryl is in fact AK but using 5.56 rounds),

another thing is what you say about rate of fire etc.

it is vehicle planned to be support role, so going along with Patria, but as heavy support /defence of APCs, it would had cannon from Leopard/Abrams, so it is 1shot-1kill vehicle, doesn't need higher rate of fire when it is used only to "fast reaction, fast destroy" support role of APCs with M242II Bushmasters, plus it is effective against T-72, T90-like vehicles (Arena, Shtora can defend against AGTM, nothing so far is able to stop APSDS cause nothing can stop 1500m/s sabot, but Russian active defence system could stop ATGM )

it is not "army" vehicle to be first line tank, it is one company proposal for IFV-support vehicle,

i think that company Obrum made it with idea of export , a lot of countries do not need heavy tanks, it is similar to Merkava but twice lighter, with the same firepower as tank,

i think it is basically concept that company wanted to show off , after "politicial" fail of Anders (MoD didn't give any more money for Anders IFV project)

i will not be surprised if in year 2020 Polish army gonna buy Bradleys phased out from USA because corrupted polticians decide so, basic line tanks will be than Leopard 2A5

Edited April 21, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

read my post Tonci cause you made mistake, first is "what the Polish military tries to achieve with this thing"

not army, but industry, one company called OBRUM - it is company product and company want to show they can design products, not army, army now develops MSBS rifle to replace AK-weapons (Beryl is in fact AK but using 5.56 rounds),

another thing is what you say about rate of fire etc.

it is vehicle planned to be support role, so going along with Patria, but as heavy support /defence of APCs, it would had cannon from Leopard/Abrams, so it is 1shot-1kill vehicle, doesn't need higher rate of fire when it is used only to "fast reaction, fast destroy" support role of APCs with M242II Bushmasters, plus it is effective against T-72, T90-like vehicles (Arena, Shtora can defend against AGTM, nothing so far is able to stop APSDS cause nothing can stop 1500m/s sabot, but Russian active defence system could stop ATGM )

it is not "army" vehicle to be first line tank, it is one company proposal for IFV-support vehicle,

i think that company Obrum made it with idea of export , a lot of countries do not need heavy tanks, it is similar to Merkava but twice lighter, with the same firepower as tank,

i think it is basically concept that company wanted to show off , after "politicial" fail of Anders (MoD didn't give any more money for Anders IFV project)

i will not be surprised if in year 2020 Polish army gonna buy Bradleys phased out from USA because corrupted polticians decide so, basic line tanks will be than Leopard 2A5

I see. But a rate of fire of only 6 shots per minute is simpy below any standard of todays Tanks, tank destroyers or IFVs. One shot one kill does sound nice on paper, but what if there are two enemys?

The whole IFV support vehicle idea doesn´t make much sense to me. Is anything known about the potential price of this thing? It could be very successfull if the price is low enough. If not then potential customers have to ask themselves why they shouldn´t buy a true tank for that money.

[vilas 477]

if there are 2 enemies it doesn't make difference if you shoot 6 or 8 rounds, second one will kill you in second , so it is not matter if second round is loaded in 30% or 20%, because you will not react enough fast no matter if you have second round loaded in 20% or 30%, you do not have it in 100%, plus turret turn, plus aiming , plus other activities,

people laugh that Soviet soldiers in WW2 in Kursk had 1 magazine, but who lived enough long to shoot 5 rounds ?

potential customers have to ask themselves why they shouldn´t buy a true tank for that money.

because this tank can cross bridge, because this tank would be less visible for one type of modern guide weapons, which others aren't

light = can cross more terrain without any special logistics etc.

Soviet tanks are 20 tones lighter than West, they do not have doubled systems, they do not have goal of protection for survival of crew etc.

why ? because in big war it is nonsense , US tanks win in A-stan against guerillas, but in symetric warfar big state vs big state, they would not be sooner than lighter tanks that do not have to wait for super bridge to cross because then you can put quantitiy vs quality and destroy them "by quantitity"

such vehicle can play role of first infantry strike support, it could be air-deployed opposite to 60 tonnes tanks, do not look at this vehicle like on tank, look at it as support-role vehicle, like IFV with gun, there is such Stryker and noone laugh at such stryker, there are Soviet BMD with guns too, it is kind of light tank concept again , if company will sell it or not, time will show

Edited April 21, 2014 by vilas

[Rydygier 1309]

Current political winds seem to favor this project enough to provide 100 mln PLN from the budget for development and construction, as I read recently. Sadly, in Poland every significant venture need favoring political winds to occurence, and atmosphere in Polish politics is far from healthy.

[vilas 477]

because none of our company is enough rich to finance project itself

[igneous01 19]

From what I have read of it, the turret and some other components are modular. That slow auto-loader gun might be swapped out for something more practical for urban environments like a 30 mm cannon.

Although I don't really see urban and IR masking mixing very well, because the engagement range of typical AT weapons in an urban area will probably be at most 1 km (like a highway), infantry would probably already have visual confirmation of the vehicle, without having to resort to IR. Although in a hull-down position, it would probably have more use.

If it had troop transport capability then it might be more versatile, masking the IR while driving to the insertion point would probably increase its survivability.

[Yairweinberg 1]

Yeah actually followed its development for quite a while... I can see a few issues from it but right now its one of the best concepts I know of.

[krzychuzokecia 717]

but first of all it is concept and little show off , it is not even in phase of fully functioning prototype, it is in phase of concept

Actually, this whole "PL-01 Concept" is even less than a concept...

"Project" (if I can use such a big word) started when Anders IFV/light tank was axed. Anders was quite modern prototype,* using as much of Polish technology as OBRUM/Bumar** could use. This shocked our gov't, who was planning to buy "new" IFVs: used CV-90s. So, they (politicians) ordered to stop Anders project and... destroy remaining prototypes. MoD, with Ministry of Science, started new competition for our companies: who'll prepare the best prototype of IFV, using CV-90 as a basis, will get a contract to upgrade CV-90s. Competition will end in 2016 IIRC, and then CV-90s will be bought.

However, this move of our gov't was criticized by Military,*** and (more surprisingly) civilians - voters. So, at MSPO trade show PL-01 emerged. By that time it was more of an MoD propaganda show-off: it wasn't even functioning vehicle - only external shell was made, designed by some artist. But OBRUM (PL-01 was shown at their booth) took it more seriously, and now they're trying to put as much Anders into "new tank" as they can, and sell it to foreign customer. That's why nobody knows what PL-01 is: light tank, IFV, or what? Final vehicle can be anything what customer want - if they'll get any customer. As for it's future in Polish Army... Well, PL-01 although uses CV-90 traction, is still not CV-90 enough for our MoD! :p

*2 versions were made: short light tank with 120mm cannon, and long IFV with Rosomak's armament and place for 8 soldiers

**OBRUM is research and development company, serving for Bumar Labedy - maker of Polish tanks and APCs. "Bumar" name was used also for Polish military industry conglomerate - but in last years new management failed to bring deals for Bumar companies. So, Bumar was dissolved and new PHO (Polish Defence Holding) was made... with the same inefficient management. So, PHO naturally started to sink, and is now merged with commercialized WZM (Military Mechanical Works - Patria AMV licence-holder), and HSW (maker of Jelcz trucks and Krab howitzers). Thing is that PHO companies still don't get deals from their main customer - Polish MoD. And export is also a no go: it has to be accepted by... MoD.

***New people in army are seeking for bigger cooperation with local industry, instead of foreign companies - the MSBS project is great example of cooperation between Military Institute of Technology and Radom Arms Works. But of course MoD have to have the last word - MoD wants to take rights to MSBS project. This will make eventual export of rifles rather hard - rights to Beryl rifles are also owned by MoD, which stops export, and even evolution of product.

[vilas 477]

history of Anders show one thing - we need Victor Orban here, cause our own gov. is more serving interests of foreign corporations than our internal economical interests, they even dare to kill good prototypes that could be competition for CV90 or Bradley for sake "to buy in future something abroad" , our politicians, elites etc. acts like "someone paid them to never buy anything ours and only buy abroad" , it begun in early 90s when one general ordered Mercedes G jeeps and later he get new Mercedes as gift, than other such cases were following, than BWP2000 was killed to order Patria, than we bought drones which we not use but which sit in hangar, than we bought Leopard 2A4, now we know we will buy Leopard 2A5, and probably also CV90,

afaik some submachineguns contests were also held , post-89 elites done a lot of effort to kill industry which was producing a lot to export before 89 (T72, Mi-2, cheap cars used in Egypt, China, Vietnam etc. etc. etc.)

Poles try very hard to earn money and produce anything but gov. and "elites" do all to cut our wings (like they were bribed by western corporations), with any project, with taxes for Polish companies that stop business, with letting free western companies from taxes, question is when people will wake up and say "f* enough" to complete lack of patriotism in "elites" to our economical interest (and cut unemployment), PL01 is great idea, shame that probably it will end like BWP2000, Anders , at least they fight in my addons :/

another great project which was killed was PZL Skorpion small attack plane, lighter version of US A10, RU SU25, one day Skorpion will also fly in Arma ,

i hope MSBS will go on, i hope there will not be year 2025 with "Poland replace Beryl with M4A1 and G36, last building of 100 years tradition weapon factory is destroyed and changed to warehouse of Whirlpool, Ardo and Siemens washing machines and new Carrefour and Tesco to be opened here with McDonald"

FSO buildings, car manufactory with 60 years tradition now are ruined and there will be developer building there "apartments",

our tank PT91 won contest with T90 and we sold tanks to Malaysia, our "elites" will not forgive it, so we order phased-out LeopardsA4 which Germans will replace with A7 version, also we have good cars producers and good armored cars projects as ZBIK etc. but gov. prefers to order US HMMWV, our own producer has no sales, but they order another HMMVW

Edited April 21, 2014 by vilas

[krzychuzokecia 717]

Wise words Vilas!

The social-political structure of Poland may be very puzzling for foreigner. Poles were fighting communism, and won, but now they'll fighting with each other - what for, somebody could ask. :confused:

Well, the relationship between government and locally-funded industry is a great example. Most of our politicians (incl. gov't and opposition) are/were closely related with great foreign companies. That's nothing wrong (you've got to learn and work somewhere), but these relations are continued, though in secrecy. Politicians are earning money from their foreign co-operants for every state tender. This should be called bribing actually.

Thing is that in capitalistic free state there are hundreds of other companies which are dangerous for such corrupted activities - law still exist and tenders can't be set up. So what politicians do? First you're selling state factories to your foreign friends - because these factories are "in debt" (which wasn't true for most cases, but who'll check this?). Then, when your country have smaller income (because you've just sold any means of production) you crush privately-funded business with high taxes - to "balance national budget". Budget is far from "balanced", but no local company can grow enough to threat foreign firms. This way you've achieved a colony of foreign capital, with you (politicians) as the rich elite and masses of poor, unemployed, under-educated people who'll look at you as their only savior (thanks to miracles of modern TV and PR). And no law was broken! This whole thing was done to protect democracy and free market! :cool:

There are, of course, successful ventures - Vilas wrote about privately-funded AMZ Kutno, maker of Zbik and Tur armored cars/MRAPs. But they have based their success on escaping from Polish market - they've based their businesses in Germany. AMZ was serving German car manufactures with specialist equipment for ambulances, fire-fighting and riot-control vehicles. Then they've moved to Poland, and they're virtually unknown. They tried to supply Army with their military vehicles, but they lost, even when their designs were better and cheaper than used HMMWVs. On Polish civilian market their products are imported from Germany.

So if Pole wants to make "big business" in his country, he needs to set up his company abroad - he won't get destroyed by taxes, and may won some big state contract.

That's why there's so much hatred within Polish society - we all feel lied to by politicians. And that's why there's so much emotion in this rather technical thread - we all know that our gov't will do anything to this and other projects.

[vilas 477]

http://s2.postimg.org/685uzummh/Beznazwy_2.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tawdz0o3t/Beznazwy_3.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/d167w4dft/Beznazwy_4.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tdg9lurrd/Beznazwy_22.jpg

soon, it is first wip screen , not finished , will be greyish-green and camo;)

[Miroslaw Kowalski 54]

Awesome :D I was just about to start doing the same tank but now you were faster :P good work

[igneous01 19]

http://s2.postimg.org/685uzummh/Beznazwy_2.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tawdz0o3t/Beznazwy_3.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/d167w4dft/Beznazwy_4.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tdg9lurrd/Beznazwy_22.jpg

soon, it is first wip screen , not finished , will be greyish-green and camo;)

looking really good! can't wait to try it out

[vilas 477]

another progress:

http://s16.postimg.org/w86iu46kl/Beznazwy_2.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/8mfhzf32d/Beznazwy_3.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/ts9au0dvp/Beznazwy_4.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/6s2nhog1x/Beznazwy_5.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/plogeoe9x/Beznazwy_11.jpg

but more news when come to addon - on my forum, cause there is no place to offtop offtop with addons ;)

meanwhile you can read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-230_Skorpion

[sudayev 27]

another progress:

http://s16.postimg.org/w86iu46kl/Beznazwy_2.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/8mfhzf32d/Beznazwy_3.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/ts9au0dvp/Beznazwy_4.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/6s2nhog1x/Beznazwy_5.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/plogeoe9x/Beznazwy_11.jpg

but more news when come to addon - on my forum, cause there is no place to offtop offtop with addons ;)

meanwhile you can read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-230_Skorpion

Very nice, looking at the flat surfaces of this tank making this model wasn't too difficult? Such tank would make a good modern addition to our military potential along with these F-35's Polish DOD plans to purchase ;)

[vilas 477]

sory to offtop , cause topis IS NOT about my addons, but test version is since few days ready to test (textures by Topas, details on my topic , last post, or my forum)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?85067-VILAS-addons-release-thread&p=2675894&viewfull=1#post2675894

ending offtopic :)

PL-01 is so good looking (desing) that it will appear in other PC game made by Obrum (company who designed it)

simply this design (no matter if it work, no matter if it will be developed to real vehicle) looks so cool "badass" that this gained popularity :) good designers were mostly in civil cars, clothes, now designer touched military equipment ;)

good look was never important in utility vehicles , but this time someone designed it , that many people spoted this vehicle although it is not even a real vehicle,

[The_Tactician 56]

On 4/22/2014 at 11:56 AM, vilas said:

http://s2.postimg.org/685uzummh/Beznazwy_2.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tawdz0o3t/Beznazwy_3.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/d167w4dft/Beznazwy_4.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/tdg9lurrd/Beznazwy_22.jpg

soon, it is first wip screen , not finished , will be greyish-green and camo;)

is this still being worked on?

[vilas 477]

On 22.06.2017 at 7:42 AM, Ryejin said:

is this still being worked on?

released 2 years ago, but this is not proper topic ;) 

 

Arma2 > complete addons > my topic