Flashlight vs no flashlight results will shock you

[bravo409 13]

So I have been doing some testing on Ai seeing you at night and found something that's amazing. I found that flashlights must have a bug in it because it allows the Ai to see farther than normal at night. So my test was AI NVGS disabled and flashlights on only then off check for yourself I have video proof. So I did some more testing and found out the flashlight my be bugged thus that could be the problem why they can see so far....check my video and see...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HhgWnqYspc

[squirrel0311 16]

Hmmmm….Well I’m not quite sure what you’re pointing out as a bug……. Are you saying that you feel the AI….Shouldn’t be able to identify targets as well with a flashlight?

If so then I have to disagree, flashlights are intended to help you see better at night…. A good tactical light can illuminate a man sized standing target at 100 yards and sometimes even further depending on terrain and vegetation.

However, I agree that in the Player View Arma 3 gives Tactical lights a pretty wide beam instead of a focused one. If that is the bug you’re referring too then I agree it should be fixed.

As for your test you might try moving somewhere more flat…. Mark yours and the AI’s position on the map so it’s easier to judge how far you really are… Even still it looked like you were about only 30 meters away which I don't find unrealistic...

[bravo409 13]

well in other test I did with flashlight on look how far they saw me on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqk6A-GTd8w Look I can understand if its a narrow beam they probably could see pretty far but a spread out beam is less focus. thus unrealistic

[k0rd 3]

Hmmmm….Well I’m not quite sure what you’re pointing out as a bug……. Are you saying that you feel the AI….Shouldn’t be able to identify targets as well with a flashlight?

If so then I have to disagree, flashlights are intended to help you see better at night…. A good tactical light can illuminate a man sized standing target at 100 yards and sometimes even further depending on terrain and vegetation.

However, I agree that in the Player View Arma 3 gives Tactical lights a pretty wide beam instead of a focused one. If that is the bug you’re referring too then I agree it should be fixed.

As for your test you might try moving somewhere more flat…. Mark yours and the AI’s position on the map so it’s easier to judge how far you really are… Even still it looked like you were about only 30 meters away which I don't find unrealistic...

If a player can't see an enemy with a flashlight (and be able to IFF) - the AI shouldn't be able to either. Anything else added on to that fact is just confusing the issue.

[bravo409 13]

I forwarded this to the DEV Ai branch discussion so hopefully they address this flashlight problem.

[warlord554 2065]

From the video it didn't look that bad, depending on the torch engagement distances can be much farther than that. Also is this on vanilla A3? Any AI mods running? AI skill slider settings?

[k0rd 3]

while the distances may be reasonable.. the issue is that the AI has an unfair advantage in that they use math to determine spotting and not the physical light. in the case of the flashlight, this is seemingly not emulated properly

[Harzach 2517]

Test data and repro mission removed due to lack of interest.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Harzach

[bravo409 13]

From the video it didn't look that bad, depending on the torch engagement distances can be much farther than that. Also is this on vanilla A3? Any AI mods running? AI skill slider settings?

Vanilla Ai , Aiskill 0.8-Precision 0.5

[Bouben 3]

The point is, that the AI on the video has flashlights pointing to the ground thus not illuminating the player. It seems as if just having a flashlight on their weapons is enough for their increased spotting. If it is true, then it sucks big time (these fucking half-assed features that would be better non-existent, yet they are still in the game destroying the gameplay). Is it correct bravo409?

[Harzach 2517]

If it is true...

My tests say it is not. YMMV, but let's try to be scientific about it. OP's videos do not show a controlled environment.

Side note: AI with NVGs did not seem to notice me shining a laser in their face for extended periods of time, either.

[bravo409 13]

Look heres the facts here If I have a flashlight on my gun and look up the hill with it does not light it like the ai and it is out of focus. Like I said before a narrow beam would make it easier to see farther, that I can understand but out of focus come on really I don't think so.

[Harzach 2517]

Again, there does not appear to be any real issue here - in a controlled test, AI will engage at roughly the same distance no matter the equipment they are carrying.

[jgbtl292 0]

flashlight - go in light on blend him kill him .

is not a light for searching things or enemys ^^

[Bouben 3]

bravo, maybe you should try to be more clear about what is your point in this case.

Explain what are you observing and what do you expect to be correct and why. Right now it is just chaos.

[squirrel0311 16]

Ok ….let me clarify my point.

For players the flashlight beam should be more focused and illuminate farther out…maybe with the brightness of a chemlight within 25 yards and then fade out slowly at further distance. 100m max... (This is the main thing.)

For AI…I feel the problem is more…aesthetic or visual….. Looking at the first video again…it still doesn’t look bad to me… At 2:13 it looks pretty good, the AI is scanning the terrain with his flashlight, the light on the ground is just the light cast from the wide beam.

The second video is much worse; as stated in the video the hill side doesn’t light up (Though lots of times you won't notice that.) and you don’t see flashlights pointing at the player…That’s why I say it’s just a bad visual effect.

Some things to point out…

Everyone’s opinion and approach to gameplay is different so I accept and understand that. Personally I have a very Adapt and Overcome outlook to ArmA….I hate glitches and oversights and wish they were fixed but until that day comes I just find other ways to win.

This is especially the case when playing against AI. I automatically treat them as Terminators. I take nothing for granted when dealing with them. I always just assume they’re scanning and they can see me, therefore hard cover is my rule.

As for fixing this flashlight issue…I would consider it low priority. I understand it’s an immersion killer…I can’t say Realism Killer because to be honest, using a Tactical light in anything other than a close quarters assault is really just right up there next to suicide. Even police are buying or being issued NVG’s.

Sneaking up on people (especially by yourself) generally isn’t done….the situation has to be perfect in order to succeed and there is still a lot that can go wrong. Yes this is a problem for Rainbow Six style missions but as I stated previously…The real test of combat comes from your ability to assess the threat, adapt, and overcome. ...And in lots of cases…Overwhelming firepower is your best bet. :P

I’d like to see a test with no back ground lighting and both NVGs on and off the player before contact so I can see what the flashlights actually look like when being panned around by AI. (I’m at work so I can’t try it out myself.)

[bravo409 13]

bravo, maybe you should try to be more clear about what is your point in this case.

Explain what are you observing and what do you expect to be correct and why. Right now it is just chaos.

My observation is felt that the ai saw me too far away with a flashlight a wide light. My video sec video showing you I was far enough where I shouldn't be spotted so check these out and you be the judge.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqk6A-GTd8w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxUjKzPfGA

[Bouben 3]

My observation is felt that the ai saw me too far away with a flashlight a wide light. My video sec video showing you I was far enough where I shouldn't be spotted so check these out and you be the judge.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqk6A-GTd8w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxUjKzPfGA

So you basically say that the light emitted from a flashlight in Arma 3 is visually too weak to have such a big effect on spotting and that the light should be either stronger to visually compensate for such spotting bonus or the spotting bonus should be lower to match the visuals? Something like that?

[k0rd 3]

So you basically say that the light emitted from a flashlight in Arma 3 is visually too weak to have such a big effect on spotting and that the light should be either stronger to visually compensate for such spotting bonus or the spotting bonus should be lower to match the visuals? Something like that?

This is a good summary of the situation, I would say. Take a look at how close an enemy will appear on your map with a flashlight vs what you can really see on your screen.

[Harzach 2517]

KnowsAbout values are shared by ALL members of a group. Once one group member spots you, the entire group knows your location. If you don't relocate, they will find and kill you, period. This is why you were killed in test 3 of your second video (linked in post #3) - not only did they know where you were, but you basically dawdled in place, actually moving further out of cover into the open where they could better see you. If you had stayed perfectly still, you might have had a chance. Better, if you had flanked right into the trees and around the house they would have lost situational awareness very quickly.

KnowsAbout + little to no movement - hard cover = dead. It's not a bug, but it is an unrealistically perfect model of tactical communication and response by AI.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

So you basically say that the light emitted from a flashlight in Arma 3 is visually too weak to have such a big effect on spotting...

I have seen no effect at all on AI's ability to spot, flashlight or no, NVGs or no.

[Bouben 3]

I have seen no effect at all on AI's ability to spot, flashlight or no, NVGs or no.

This is strange. I will have to test it myself. Can somebody confirm this (especially the NVG issue)?

[Harzach 2517]

This is strange. I will have to test it myself. Can somebody confirm this (especially the NVG issue)?

See my first post in this topic.

[oukej 2911]

I remember the FL, NVG and general light conditions values related to AI spotting ability went thru multiple tweaks in the early Alpha stage and gave some relatively good and believable results. Makes me sad panda to see this may turned at some point into no longer being true. There was a FT ticket about this issue some time ago ( http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=17151 ), I quickly revisited that issue, checked it and found it to be still pretty ok. (quick simple video -

) However, I only checked some isolated scenarios, not everything we've tweaked the behavior against earlier and even that couldn't cover all situations. I've reopened this issue, please, feel free to add any repro missions related to this issue or further info.

What plays a role and what may be broken, wrongly set, etc...

The flashlights definitely have an influence on how the AI is able to spot its target (both when the target is using a FL or when the AI is using FL to improve light conditions in its surrounding).

The NVGs serve the AI more as an overall enhancer of the light conditions (e.g. something like turning the light conditions' values of an fully overcast night into a clear sky/full moon night).

Mentioning that, the cloud cover plays a big role - the AI will spot differently at night under an overcast sky.

The terrain the target is positioned in has also some influence on how it can spotted.

I'd encourage against using or relying on knowsAbout value too much. It tells you that the AI knows (in quality - related to the hierarchy of classes) that the object exists, but it does not tell the AI where the object is or what it's currently doing or whether the AI still cares about it that much :)

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

[chrisb 196]

Good call Bravo409, you went with what you saw happening with your eyes, rather than all the rhetoric (that so many use here) regards what the code or script said should have happened.

:)

[bravo409 13]

First off I just want to say thank you to the DEVS for looking back into this I just want to make the game fun for everyone so this is why I made these videos to show that there is a problem. Also I enjoy playing but as you know it is kinda hard to have fun if the AI aren't acting like they should. Second I want to thank ChrisB I watch a lot of his stuff and learned how to test and, show what the problems are. So thank you everyone that chimed in on this thread hope we all can make a better Arma 3 together and have less fights about who's right or wrong because ultimately we all want the same thing a fun Arma Game. Thanks again.