Weapon tests

[pooroldspike 129]

But if you want a real ingame minidrone to play with, these are the babies you need-

MINI-UAV TESTS

The NATO job is called AR-2 Darter, and the CSAT job is called Tayran AR-2, they do the same stuff so I'll go with NATO.

Place your character as a UAV Operator. He carries the UAV in that backpack..

In the menu select 'Assemble AR-2 Darter'..

Select 'Open UAV Terminal'..

Select the UAV (left), then select 'Pilot' (right)..

Select 'Start Engine', and 'auto-hover', then simply fly it with the standard helicopter keys.

You can switch from 1st person (pilots HUD view) to 3rd person (external view) and gunners view (he has day/night optics but no weapons, just a laser designator)..

3rd person external view (UAV yellow circle), your character is blue circled..

Pilot's view..

But you can switch to the gunners view via the menu anytime, it's much more flexible because his camera can point indepedently of which way the UAV is pointing. (he's called a gunner but hasn't got any weapons, just a laser designator to call in arty and air)

This is the standard gunners view..

and this is his medium zoom..

and this is his full zoom..

Edited June 6, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

Another example of the gunner's powerful optics: 3 enemy Riflemen are almost invisible in standard external view (circled)..

..but his fully zoomed gunners scope view spots them easily..

Night ops, this is the gunners unaided eyeball view..

..and his NV view..

..and his IR view (i've zoomed it, and also activated the laser for fun)

Mini-UAV's are very vulnerable, here I bring one down with a single rifle shot..

I almost feel sorry for it (sniffle)..

Edited June 6, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

Enemy Rifleman bots will shoot at mini-UAV's, here three of them on the road (red circle) shoot it down; note its rotors are shot off and its damage panel has turned red and it begins dropping like a stone. They must have eyes like hawks to hit such a small moving target at this range..

But bots are slower to spot the drone if you can get directly above them like this. They're sitting ducks and I wish I had a grenade or a water-balloon to drop, but like I said mini-drones are completely unarmed in Arma3..

Mini drones can open doors!

"Okay muchachos, you come out or I'm coming in!"

"Show me your badges authorising you to be here!"

"We ain't got no steenkin' badges!"

"You picked the wrong drone to mess with, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!"

Edited August 26, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[manesh 1]

More numbers (I like numbers :))

Weapon and ammunition damage / muzzle velocity

Data taken from the config files (normal client):

- hit means damage

- speed is muzzle velocity

- airFriction means how much it slows down

- visible/audibleFire means how good it can be heard/seen

B_556x45_Ball (= 5.56mm 30rnd STANAG Mag)
hit = 8;
typicalSpeed = 920;
airFriction = -0.0012;
visibleFire = 4;
audibleFire = 6;

B_65x39_Caseless (= 6.5mm 30Rnd STANAG Mag)
hit = 10;
typicalSpeed = 820;
airFriction = -0.0009;
visibleFire = 5;
audibleFire = 8;

B_762x51_Ball (= 7.62mm 20Rnd Mag)
hit = 12;
typicalSpeed = 800;
airFriction = -0.001;
visibleFire = 6;
audibleFire = 9;

-----------------------------------------------------------------	
B_408_Ball (= .408 7Rnd LRR Mag (for M320 LRR sniper))
hit = 20;
typicalSpeed = 910;
airFriction = -0.00048;
visibleFire = 10;
audibleFire = 15;

B_127x108_Ball (= 12.7mm 5Rnd Mag (for GM6 Lynx sniper))
hit = 30;
typicalSpeed = 820;
airFriction = -0.00056;
visibleFire = 48;
audibleFire = 48;

B_127x108_APDS (=  12.7mm 5Rnd APDS Mag (for GM6 Lynx sniper) = Armour-piercing discarding sabot)
hit = 60;
typicalSpeed = 1060;
airFriction = -0.00036;
visibleFire = 10;
audibleFire = 15;

Now real tests in game, because over the time values got changed in comparison with the above config file.

TESTED IN THE GAME (so this is 'more' correct):
(?) means that I did not find where the config was changed
no comment means, they behave as stated with the ammunition above

				muzzle velocity, suppressed & normal

TRG-20 5.56			920m/s
TRG-21 5.56			920m/s
Mk20 5.56 [C]			920m/s
Mk20 5.56			920m/s
Mk20C 5.56 [C]			920m/s
Mk20C 5.56			920m/s


MXC 6.5				800m/s
MX 6.5				800m/s
MX 3GL 6.5			800m/s
MX SW 6.5			800m/s
MXM 6.5				800m/s

Katiba 6.5			900m/s	(?)
Katiba Carab 6.5		900m/s	(?)
Katiba GL 6.5			900m/s	(?)
Mk200 6.5			920m/s	(?)


Mk18 ABR 7.62			850m/s	(?)
Rahim 7.62			830m/s	(10Rnd_762x51_Mag - changed in weapons_f_epa)
Zafir 7.62			860m/s	(150Rnd_762x51_Box - changed in weapons_f_beta)


GM6 Lynx 12.7			820m/s
M320 LRR .408			910m/s

Suppressors/Silencers:

The code is from weapons_f - nothing else found.

Those values are modifiers that will be multiplied by the original value (e.g. hit does not change, airFriction will be *1.2)

muzzle_snds_H, muzzle_snds_L, muzzle_snds_M, muzzle_snds_B
hit = 1;
visibleFire = 0.5;
audibleFire = 0.3;
typicalSpeed = 1.2;
airFriction = 1.2;

muzzle_snds_H_MG, muzzle_snds_H_SW
hit = 1;
visibleFire = 0.8;
audibleFire = 0.6;
typicalSpeed = 1.2;
airFriction = 1.2;

Conclusions:

- Barrel length has no impact on the muzzle velocity (in real life it impacts velocity a lot)

- Suppressors are bugged. Suppressor has no impact on the muzzle velocity (correct). This has been fixed a few months ago. But they are still bugged because they increase the airFriction (this is no way true in real life). You can see the impact in my post above (they deaccelerate a lot faster than non silenced projectiles).

- 7.62 does the most damage but should be louder and more visible - they also deaccelerate faster (this is consistend with my post above).

Hope that helped :)

I created a bug report regarding the suppressors: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=19088

Edited June 4, 2014 by manesh

[WhiskeySixx 10]

Conclusions:

- The only important value is the caliber - the weapon itself does not influence the speed decrease - for absolute values in muzzle velocity for different weapons see my post below.

- Suppressors seem to have a bit higher variance in the decrease sometimes (+-20m to +-10m)

- Suppressors are still modeled wrong - suppressors do not(!) slow down projectiles (in contrast, the enhance the speed a bit) - there was a bugreport that was set to fixed but it is still wrong - see my post below.

- 7.62 loses its velocity faster than 6.5 - for absolute values see my next post.

That is entirely an incorrect statement. When using a suppressor, you are not supposed to use "hot" / supersonic rounds... The effect of the suppressor would be negated by the bullet breaking the sound barrier causing a sonic boom or a loud crack. When using suppressors "correctly" You are to use subsonic ammunition to not create a sonic boom. That is why rounds are less powerful when using a suppressor if modeled correctely.

[manesh 1]

That is entirely an incorrect statement. When using a suppressor, you are not supposed to use "hot" / supersonic rounds... The effect of the suppressor would be negated by the bullet breaking the sound barrier causing a sonic boom or a loud crack. When using suppressors "correctly" You are to use subsonic ammunition to not create a sonic boom. That is why rounds are less powerful when using a suppressor if modeled correctely.

You are incorrect. Suppressors are NOT supposed to only shoot subsonic rounds - you can shoot them of course if you want to (with all their flaws).

Suppressors (aka 'silencers') are there to lower the noise of the shot - they do that with either rounds.

There is no subsonic ammunition in the game right now (in contrast to A2), so the suppressor has to be used on supersonic rounds - in real life this does not slow down muzzle velocity or even affect airFriction.

[pooroldspike 129]

I've not tried silenced rifles in Arma3 yet, but they seem quite realistic in Arma2 where at longish ranges their slow moving bullets have trajectories like rainbows. The bot squad usually don't even know they're being fired at for a while and just stand around until you hit one of them, or a bullet whizzes past somebody's ear or kicks up some dust. They then go prone or run around but they still can't figger out where your shots are coming from, so you can carry on picking them off until at last they spot you and begin returning fire.

I'll test out some silenced rifles in Arma3, which ones are they? Will I find them in crates or what?

[manesh 1]

A3 does not have silenced / suppressed long range sniper rifles (only the 7.62 ones).

A3 does not have subsonic ammunition.

For other calibers 5.56, 6.5, 7.62 you can find suppressors that you then have to attach to the rifle.

Despite the bug I stated in my post before they behave just fine. As said before - with the ammunition currently in A3 (supersonic) a 'silenced' projectile should not have any other trajectory than a non-silenced projectile (supersonic). - But they do as proven on the page before.

[Emryse 2]

A3 does not have silenced / suppressed long range sniper rifles (only the 7.62 ones).

A3 does not have subsonic ammunition.

For other calibers 5.56, 6.5, 7.62 you can find suppressors that you then have to attach to the rifle.

Despite the bug I stated in my post before they behave just fine. As said before - with the ammunition currently in A3 (supersonic) a 'silenced' projectile should not have any other trajectory than a non-silenced projectile (supersonic). - But they do as proven on the page before.

As title says, you're indeed right that they've got the suppressor bit wring on a couple of key aspects. I have real world experience in this subject both in pistols, small rifle, and large rifle applications. Here's a couple of quick facts:

1.) Suppressors only negate the sound of the gases built up behind the bullet as it leaves the barrel's muzzle. This is the large "boom" that occurs at the rifle, and therefore gives away the location of the shooter. Suppressing the rifle significantly reduces both the volume and tone (frequency? I'm no audio genius), as well as to some extent lessens the dust signature around the immediate ground area of the gun so that the shooter's location is not easily audibly or visually located.

2.) So what other sounds should there be when firing a suppressed gun besides the diminished end of barrel discharge? Well, 3 to be exact:

- the cycling of the action, depending on if it's a semi or bolt.

- the sound of the bullet's impact on whatever it hits at terminal

- the sound of the bullet itself (IF IT'S SUPERSONIC!)

3.) What determines if the bullet is supersonic?

- well, as you correctly stated, it's muzzle velocity that determines this (usually any speed greater than 1100 feet per second, but can vary in real world depending on temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity)

- also, as you rightly stated, there is a time and place for using both supersonic and subsonic ammunition in a suppressor. Here's the breakdown on that:

4.) Benefits of shooting supersonic ammunition in a suppressor

- reduces the recoil slightly, and also reduces the "thump" of the sound wave's concussive force that tends to cause the shooter to involuntarily flinch or blink (bad because if you blink, you'll likely miss where the bullet impacted, or not see the wake of the trajectory of the bullet in the air)

- adjusts the muzzle velocity slightly; call it 5-20 feet per second extra, because there is more time where there is some additional buildup of gases still uniformly applying pressure from the rear to the bullet in an internal ballistics setting (but regardless, you are absolutely correct that at the very least, the muzzle velocity of the bullet is not reduced in any way). Excellently made suppressors refer to this as "point-of-impact shift", or "POI shift", and well-designed modern suppressors have design and attachment structures that ensure a consistent point of impact shift, so you always know where your bullet will terminate both with or without the suppressor.

- reduces the sound and visual signature of the shooter's immediate area and location

- the sonic crack of the bullet is impossible to trace back to the shooter, since it is coming from the bullet itself, and is a constant noise the bullet makes as it travels through the air supersonic, so the only thing it does is cause people to duck and cover, or animals to spook

WRAPPING THIS UP - When to use supersonic or subsonic ammo?

SUPERSONIC = LONG RANGE ENGAGEMENTS. SO basically, if you're using the 7.62mm caliber or higher and are in a real sniping role where you're engaging targets beyond 400 meters, then you'd want to remain with supersonic ammunition, because:

a.) you'll want all of the muzzle velocity you can get, because higher velocity at terminal means greater damage energy, and also higher muzzle velocity means longer engagement distance potential before hitting "transonic zone" (where the damage energy starts reducing dramatically, and where the bullet becomes unstable to the point that the terminal impact becomes inconsistent and unpredictable)

SUBSONIC = SHORT RANGE ENGAGEMENTS. If you're in a designated marksman role, where targets will be closer than 400 meters, and you need to eliminate every noise signature possible for stealth purposes, then subsonic is the way to go, because:

a.) you'll have enough muzzle velocity to ensure consistent external ballistics performance, terminal impact prediction, and necessary damage energy at terminal impact.

b.) with the bullet's supersonic crack eliminated, the only noise the bullet makes is a soft hissing sound (similar to the sound you hear when a baseball or golf ball is traveling by you very fast). This means that if you have enemy targets that are spaced somewhat apart (i.e., one group 50 yards away from another group, or one sentry 30 yards away from another sentry), you've got the chance to takedown the one without alerting the other - provided you get a clean shot, and the bullet doesn't impact other surfaces than a soft target to make a loud impact noises.

PROPOSED SOLUTION FOR ARMA:

a.) In 2014, let alone in whatever year this game is supposed to be taking place, there should be a suppressor available for every single small arms caliber offered, up to and including the .408, the Lynx, and even the .50 BMG. These are all rounds that, in real life, many companies produce effective suppressors for. There are even suppressors for shotguns nowadays, and it should not be unreasonable to see that in the game.

b.) Suppressors should create heat waves that cause mirage. Suppressors get very hot, very quick. As a result, especially through scoped, but still a challenge even with iron sights, the mirage a suppressor produces starts to cause the target to get "wavy", making it difficult to aim after sustained firing. (say, after the first 10 shots). In the real world, we use mirage covers (basically think of it like a beer cuzzie) made of high heat resistant material to transfer heat away and reduce the mirage.

c.) We should have the option to have both supersonic and subsonic rounds for every small arms caliber in the game. The key differences in these rounds would be:

- muzzle velocity

- differences in sound made at barrel's muzzle (there would be 4 different samples for each):

1. supersonic ammo unsuppressed (both loud gun discharge and loud supersonic crack of bullet)

2. supersonic ammo suppressed (quiet gun discharge, but still loud supersonic crack of bullet)

3. subsonic ammo unsuppressed (slightly less loud gun discharge, loud supersonic crack of bullet)

4. subsonic ammo suppressed (very quiet gun discharge, no supersonic crack of bullet)

FINALLY, A DISCUSSION ON MUZZLE VELOCITY AND ENERGY FOR DAMAGE AT TERMINAL IMPACT

So the key here is that of course, the less muzzle velocity, the less energy, and the less energy, the less damage when the bullet finally hits home. Since gravity drop is a constant, and all other things being equal, then muzzle velocity also dictates how far the bullet can travel before losing so much velocity that its energy at impact doesn't do enough damage, or that it's flight profile becomes unstable so that predicting impact becomes impossible. Maybe the scripting to get all of this right for a ton of bullets that could be potentially flying all over a multiplayer map at the same time is too much to handle for a system with scripting, etc., I don't know. But what I do know is that in the real world, my thinking would be: "how far away does my final firing position (where I take the shot from) need to be from the terminal point of impact (the target I'm shooting at), and how much energy does my bullet need to carry at the terminal point of impact to get the job done?" This would dictate what caliber gun I use, with what kind of bullet. As far as suppressing goes? I NEVER shoot unsuppressed anymore! There is absolutely no reason to not use a suppressor - there are only benefits.

OK - I sure hope at least something in here is helpful, and if you're able to enhance your bug thread on the suppressors, great! Take care.

[pooroldspike 129]

TANKS AS COVER

I placed this bunch of AI bot NATO Riflemen in a tight group behind a Slammer, and the AI bot CSAT Rifleman up the road couldn't see them, he just stood there doing nothing. (I stripped the Slammer of ammo)

Next I spread them out a bit..

..then placed the CSAT Rifleman (circled) and he immediately goes prone and opens fire on the guys on the outside (only he has ammo for the test, nobody else does)..

They start to get fidgety..

..and after a minute of him shooting there are 4 dead (red circles) and most of the rest have scattered in all directions, including some who'd have been better off staying in cover behind the tank, but that's bots for you, they run around wetting their pants at the drop of a hat..

Next I place these 3 behind the tank and the CSAT guy can't see them..

But when I drop prone he shoots me (note blood spots), obviously he couldn't see my small-target ankles under the tank before, but when I went prone it blew my cover and attracted his attention. He never fired at the two who were behind the cover of the tracks..

In this next test I started myself behind the right-hand track and dropped prone, but he couldn't see me and never fired..

But when I wriggle sideways to the left from behind the track, he sees me and blows me away..

Edited June 7, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

Next test, I stand behind the tank and he can't see me..

But as soon as I edge out to the right he opens up and I get my ass handed to me..

Next test- I backpedal keeping the tank between me and him and he can't see me..

But when I move out from behind it he starts shooting and I get iced..

Edited June 7, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[bigpickle 0]

I thought I'd add a little more info to this thread.

This was tested using standard rifleman kit. Each test was set up against the counterpart ie mx hitting opfor standard vest.

Test spans 100m to 400m which is the standard operating effective distances for battle rifles.

All weapons used SOS scope and the Diamond was used as my aim point. No averages are taken just the raw data.

Player Vs AI in Empty Editor

The second test was an online test, same map and mission only results were quite different in places with the addition of shots disappearing after being fired.

Also as a side note, nothing is happening elsewhere on the map/mission.

Again no averages taken just the raw data.

Player Vs Player in Empty Editor

Edited June 17, 2014 by Bigpickle

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Nice posts. Be good if bis did more work on the Ai taking cover not running out into fire. Or they only move out of cover to move to other cover ,when one if their own was suppressing enemy.

[LoupVrt 14]

Just wanted to say Hi and Thanks POS!

I really loved all the tests you did on CM, so much that I innocently posted a PDF compilation on BFF and been flamed for that ;)

Glad to have you around Sir!

[littleturn 1]

VEHICLE SMOKE GRENADES

Summary:

Smoke won't prevent missiles locking on because the missile sensor will still detect the tank. (Point your launcher at the smoke and sweep it around while jabbing the 'T' (lockon) key until it locks)

Not quite.

If I'm not mistaken, the AT launcher would not detect if the tank moved behind the smoke, it would fire at the last known position. Same with ATGMs fired from aircraft, a similar effect can be achieved if you loose line of sight to the target, that's basically what the smoke does.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Not quite.

If I'm not mistaken, the AT launcher would not detect if the tank moved behind the smoke, it would fire at the last known position. Same with ATGMs fired from aircraft, a similar effect can be achieved if you loose line of sight to the target, that's basically what the smoke does.

Please provide video, sounds interesting.

[Greenfist 1863]

Please provide video, sounds interesting.

Here's a video:

The green rectangle shows where the tank is exactly. T-100 countermeasure smoke is popped to block the view. Launcher locks succesfully through it. Twice.

The tank then stops as well as the locking reticle, so it can't be the last known or estimated position, because then the reticle would keep moving like it would if the line of sight was blocked by a solid object.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Here's a video:

The green rectangle shows where the tank is exactly. T-100 countermeasure smoke is popped to block the view. Launcher locks succesfully through it. Twice.

The tank then stops as well as the locking reticle, so it can't be the last known or estimated position, because then the reticle would keep moving like it would if the line of sight was blocked by a solid object.

Thanks!

[blackpixxel 53]

zGuba, the smoke is obviously not there to stop AT missile locks, but to create a view bock for infantery.

Since there are many lock on launchers in the game, and this is the year 2035, shouldn't there be some kind of real countermeasure? Otherwise a tank would not have any change against even one AT-soldier. Which would be extremely game-breaking and unrealistic. Who would build tanks if they could not defend against guided missiles? So the commander could use 'c' for smoke and 'x' for the Anti Tank Missile countermeassure, or just make a Trophy-like system.

In Arma 2 tanks where fine, only the Bluefor Side had 2 Lock on Launchers (Javelin and NLAW), and they where fighting against a badly equiped Takistan Army that only had older tank generations. But in Arma 3 we have 3 modern Armys with High-Tech Equipment. Therefore the tanks should be able to defend them selfs against missile threats as in real life.

I hope that we will see some improvements soon, maybe you could tell me if something like this is already planned :cool:

Thank you!

[pooroldspike 129]

Just wanted to say Hi and Thanks POS!

I really loved all the tests you did on CM, so much that I innocently posted a PDF compilation on BFF and been flamed for that ;)

Glad to have you around Sir!

Thanks mate, ha ha yes I was banned from BFF about 10 years ago because my christian patriotic views upset a few people in their political discussion forum. No sweat, I simply moved to other forums and continued posting my sensational CM (Combat Mission) screenshots and stuff there instead, and later I moved onto AA2 and AA3..:)

PS- If anybody wants to copy anything I've posted anywhere on the internet, go ahead and do whatever you like with it such as saving it to your hard drive and picture folders, burning it to disk, posting links, or printing it out to line the budgies cage etc I don't mind...:)

Edited July 28, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Variable 322]

PoorOldSpike have you ever tested AI capability to detect and avoid the different kinds of landmines? With and without a mine detector?

It seems they are quite capable in that, and there are rumors that this ability is very human like - if the mine is hidden behind an object they won't detect it. Can you confirm all that?

[Greenfist 1863]

PoorOldSpike have you ever tested AI capability to detect and avoid the different kinds of landmines? With and without a mine detector?

It seems they are quite capable in that, and there are rumors that this ability is very human like - if the mine is hidden behind an object they won't detect it. Can you confirm all that?

My guess is that mine detection works exactly the same with AI and player, because it doesn't require any input from the player so the AI doesn't have any control over it either. I haven't tested it at all though.

[Variable 322]

My guess is that mine detection works exactly the same with AI and player, because it doesn't require any input from the player so the AI doesn't have any control over it either. I haven't tested it at all though.

I think they can spot mines even without a mine detector, if they are close enough for them (the same as the "I spotted a mine" message for a player without a mine detector when close enough to a mine).

[Greenfist 1863]

Okay, I made some disappointing discoveries with APERS mines and AI.

A soldier with mine detector will spot mines through every object; buildings, bushes, concrete walls etc. Even in the middle of the night while sprinting. I guess that's how mine detectors work in 2035.

Soldiers without the detector, on the other hand, mostly never spot mines in time. Only when the mine is on a paved surface and the unit moves very slowly or stands still very close in front of it.

I tried at least ten times to get a rifleman to spot a mine on other surface than pavement while moving 5km/h but he never did. A couple of times he spotted it about 4 meters away but it was too late.

Good thing is that an AI without a detector doesn't spot mines through solid objects. So if you wan't to mine urban areas, just put them behind corners or other objects that blocks the line of sight.

All in all, the AI seems to detect mines exactly the same way as players.

[Variable 322]

All in all, the AI seems to detect mines exactly the same way as players.

That's actually very nice! Thanks for letting us know Greenfist.