Ukraine General

[d_lukin 16]

[blu3sman 11]

Poroshenko: stripping Yanukovych of presidential title unconstitutional (Ukrainian Interfax Press Agency; June 20th)

Yanukovych Ousting Was Illegitimate - Poroshenko (Sputniknews)

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko appealed to the country’s constitutional court, asking the court

to recognize the ousting of former President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 as illegitimate.

"I ask the court to acknowledge that the law ‘on the removal of the presidential title from Viktor Yanukovych' as unconstitutional," Poroshenko said in a court statement published on the website of the Ukrainian constitutional court.

The essence of russian "journalism"FPDR

Please think twice before throwing in another rt/sputnik BS

[oxmox 73]

last time i said it was unconstitutional in this thread some people jumped at me and said i got it all completely wrong... :j:

Well, "some people" - but international law experts will say something different.

Juridical already the ousting of Janukovich was unconstitutional and the detailed reasons are not mentioned in the posted news articles, it is just the question how much it is decisive in revolutionary times.

This is a more detailed read:

Munchhausen Check: Putin and the legitimate President of the Ukraine

ARD - 1st german state TV channel: (Stefan Talmon is Professor of Public Law, International Law and European Law at the University of Bonn. )

"Talmon: The government has come through a revolutionary act to power, which is not in accordance with the Constitution of the country. So in fact, the government in the Ukraine itself has no constitutional legitimacy."

Under international law, it behaves differently, however, because it aims at the principle of effectiveness. For the international community's leadership in Kiev the Ukrainian government is capable of taking action because it has prevailed in the revolutionary process. It is after the escape of Yanukovych a partner for the international community. So we have little bizarre situation which is illegal under national law, but the government by the law of nations is a legitimate government.

The same counts for the Crimea, detailed statements from international law experts will look different than what you read in the media or hear from politicians. Neverless, it was not a nice move at all and how you treat souvereign nations.

The interference of foreign powers into inner affairs, also with the aim to change the authority structure, is by the way against the UN Charta except it is repealed by the United Nations Security Council, there is often silence about it, controversials amongst international law experts, and is not consequent followed by such regulations.

strange, not available in english:

Wiki - google transl.

Edited June 21, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Sorry but that makes no sense. Revolutions are unconstitutional per se.

[Tonci87 163]

Sorry but that makes no sense. Revolutions are unconstitutional per se.

Well it really depends, I mean, what can you do if the whole government is corrupted to the bone and can´t be held responsible otherwise?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well it really depends, I mean, what can you do if the whole government is corrupted to the bone and can´t be held responsible otherwise?

Well, I don't say they are illegitimate. Most of the time revolutions are aimed at changing the rulers and the constitution alltogether, as it's not possible to change the regime without getting rid of the constitution. And the violent nature of revolutions make them unconstitutional, with IIRC the exception of the US constitution says that the people can oust their leaders.

[Bucic 1]

Sorry but that makes no sense. Revolutions are unconstitutional per se.

The best bomb on the "revolution unconstitutional => Russia is entitled to intervene" logic I've seen :)

[ProfTournesol 956]

The best bomb on the "revolution unconstitutional => Russia is entitled to intervene" logic I've seen :)

Nope. Unconstitutional doesn't mean illegitimate.

[Bucic 1]

There was this thing with alleged plans of Russian invasion on Ukraine stolen by Ukrainian hackers. Fake or not, I'd like to take a look. Are they available somewhere?

[Tonci87 163]

[d_lukin 16]

Tattooist also died :(

[oxmox 73]

More than 10 thousand cases of desertion in the Armed Forces of Ukraine (APU)

During the antiterrorist operation in Eastern Ukraine were more than 10 thousand cases of desertion

in the Armed Forces of Ukraine (APU). About it reports "RBC-Ukraine" with reference to head of the military police of Alexander Dublan.

At the same time, according to the General Staff, in 2015 the number of deserters fell and reached about 100 soldiers.

Earlier the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko said that in the first wave of mobilization , the number of deserters was almost 30%

112.ua

@Blu3sman;The essence of russian "journalism"

For example the date isnt correct which I didnt notice first, the statement from Poroshenko is about Febr. 2015 and not 2014.

Edited June 22, 2015 by oxmox

[dimon 32]

[mistyronin 1181]

What's interesting is how the civilians living in that areas say that they don't know who the separatist are and what are they fighting for, and say that they only want peace.

That compared to that warmongers, a lot of them come from outside Ukraine, and say to be fighting for "Russia".

[Bucic 1]

What's interesting is how the civilians living in that areas say that they don't know who the separatist are and what are they fighting for, and say that they only want peace.

That compared to that warmongers, a lot of them come from outside Ukraine, and say to be fighting for "Russia".

It's a long known fact. The majority of the separatist leaders are Russian citizens and without the combatants coming from Russia, trained and equipped, this conflict would extinguish long ago. Strelkov and other leaders confirmed this in their own words.

Another notable thing is neither of the two groups deny their origin. The brainwashing/feel of entitlement is that high. You would have thought they would be told by Kremlin proxies to stay low profile not to cause problems with the Russian 'noninvolvment' claim but no. The Russian line of impudently playing dumb is immune to such details. The same applies to the propaganda directed internally and externally. Just compare the contents broadcasted by Russia Today with the national Russian media.

[d_lukin 16]

[mistyronin 1181]

That's a good joke of a video. Just out of curiosity what US units are in Donbass? Because the demonstrators don't say a thing about US soldiers there... Nor has been reported anywhere.

On the other hand its been widely proof that Russian soldiers operated there.

[ProfTournesol 956]

That's a good joke of a video. Just out of curiosity what US units are in Donbass? Because the demonstrators don't say a thing about US soldiers there... Nor has been reported anywhere.

On the other hand its been widely proof that Russian soldiers operated there.

Indeed. That's really the world turned upside down :rolleyes:, for once the US isn't there ;)

[gammadust 12]

That's a good joke of a video. Just out of curiosity what US units are in Donbass? Because the demonstrators don't say a thing about US soldiers there... Nor has been reported anywhere.

Indeed. That's really the world turned upside down :rolleyes:, for once the US isn't there ;)

If you mean in Donbass, falling for the mislabeling of the video, no they are not (at least afaik that there is public evidence). Yet the protesters claim they are in the territory of Ukraine and want them out, and that is not misrepresenting:

USA, take your army out, take your soldiers out from the territory of Ukraine.

We want everyone to know the truth.

U.S. Trains Ukrainian Forces on Russia's Doorstep — And Moscow Isn't Happy

What part of this is a "joke"?! The following are the protesters other claims and demands:

The country is for Ukrainians, not for strangers.

Enough strangers, Ukraine must be governed by Ukrainians, but by not strangers.

Natalie Jaresko - Ukrainian [uS-Born] Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko has joined the newly formed Ukrainian government and has become finance minister

Ivan Miklos - Former Slovakian deputy PM appointed finance minister's advisor

Aivaras Abromavicius - Foreign-born ministers in Ukraine's new cabinet

Aleksandre Kvitashvili - Ukraine parliament approves foreigners as government ministers

Mikheil Saakashvili - Ukraine names ex-Georgian president Saakashvili as Odessa governor

USA, take your weapon out of Ukraine.

U.S. Sends Humvees, Drones To Ukraine — Still No Lethal Weapons

Government, stop instigating war, civil war on the territory of Ukraine.

Civil war on the territory of Donbass.

You destroy Donbass together with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcR9jl4AM3A

Did you even bother to watch the video or merely dismissed it as unfactual propaganda? At least this propaganda is factual and is Kiev based too.

Edited June 23, 2015 by gammadust
not Misty's strawman, video mislabeling

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah I´m sure those protesters have absolutelly no connection to Russia or pro Russian parties......riiiiight

[gammadust 12]

It is not if there is a connection or not, it is about their plea being legitimate or not and if they base it on a valid perception of reality or not. Them having a connection should surprise no one given the longstanding family bonds between population in Ukraine and Russia. At best a connection should have one more alert to their claims being unbalanced and false as a consequence, yet the defining factor for validation is not the messenger it is the facts in the message if any.

In this case they are being factual.

[Tonci87 163]

No, in this case they are doing exactly what the Russian media is doing so well. Taking a fact and twisting the truth until it fits their agenda. They present it as if Ukraine is full of US soldiers and their weapons. If they had other intentions they would also chant that all those other foreign soldiers (wich are considerably more in numbers) in the Donbass leave Ukraine too. This was an event staged for the benefit of the pro Russian propaganda, at this point it wouldn´t even surprise me if those people weren´t from Kiew but from "outside".

[gammadust 12]

No, in this case they are doing exactly what the Russian media is doing so well. Taking a fact and twisting the truth until it fits their agenda.

Well at least you are recognizing US presence as a fact. So far so good. But you do observe that they are "twisting" this fact. Let's see.

They present it as if Ukraine is full of US soldiers and their weapons.

That is how you put it, which i think could perfectly be a valid interpretation of their intention by exposing said fact. Maybe in a way to sensationalise it. But...

While you put it as a matter of quantity and level from which one can consider Ukraine being full or not of US soldiers, stressing the subjectivity of such opinion, i rather look at qualifying such presence, if it is benefiting for Ukraine and Ukrainians, and if conclusions the latter may reach, beyond plausible, are legitimate or not. In effect, no matter if i approach it quantitatively or qualitatively, the training of the National Guard under which Azov among other neo-nazi formations are affiliated is reason enough for my opinion to side with whichever Ukrainian wants the US presence out, if nothing else for that reason alone.

[Huffington Post] US forces to hold exercises in Ukraine

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — The United States plans to send soldiers to Ukraine in April for training exercises with units of the country's national guard.

Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said in a Facebook post on Sunday that the units to be trained include the Azov Battalion, a volunteer force that has attracted criticism for its far-right sentiments including brandishing an emblem widely used in Nazi Germany.

Avakov said the training will begin April 20 at a base in western Ukraine near the Polish border and would involve about 290 American paratroopers and some 900 Ukrainian guardsmen.

Pentagon spokesman Col. Steve Warren said the troops would come from the 173rd Airborne Brigade based in Vincenza, Italy.

U.S. forces also took part in exercises in Ukraine in September.

my emphasis

What do you think, is it ok for the US to train the same neo-nazis which are also responsible for the hideous crimes already commited in the bombing of Donbass residential areas and cities?

If they had other intentions they would also chant that all those other foreign soldiers (wich are considerably more in numbers) in the Donbass leave Ukraine too.

Except that these ones are not. Perhaps it would be interesting to find similar protests regarding the volunteers fighting in Donbass. Can you provide a source for the above? Certainly to be considered.

But this observation does begs the question, what exactly are the official US Army on one side and the Russian volunteers on DPR/LPR side doing?

The former, you already know my opinion, based on the established facts, the latter are not training neo-nazis, they are fighting themselves, why is that?

My conclusion is they have a dog in the fight, it is their home they are defending, their own relatives and mates, nevermind if they are russophonic and carry a russian passport. That region is prone to this phenomenon given it's history and mixing of traditions.

This was an event staged for the benefit of the pro Russian propaganda, at this point it wouldn´t even surprise me if those people weren´t from Kiew but from "outside".

That is an obtuse observation. Even if that is possible, it is baseless, do you have any facts to support the claim that it was staged? But even if it was staged, do you think there is a perversion of the sentiment of the ukrainians depicted?

Don't you find this to be reversing the facts on its head? The onus is on you to claim otherwise. I remain open to consider it.

[ProfTournesol 956]

While you put it as a matter of quantity and level from which one can consider Ukraine being full or not of US soldiers, stressing the subjectivity of such opinion, i rather look at qualifying such presence, if it is benefiting for Ukraine and Ukrainians, and if conclusions the latter may reach, beyond plausible, are legitimate or not. In effect, no matter if i approach it quantitatively or qualitatively, the training of the National Guard under which Azov among other neo-nazi formations are affiliated is reason enough for my opinion to side with whichever Ukrainian wants the US presence out, if nothing else for that reason alone.

You'd better side with Ukrainians that want the hundreds of (actually fighting and not training) Russian troops out. Do you ?

[gammadust 12]

You'd better side with Ukrainians that want the hundreds of (actually fighting and not training) Russian troops out. Do you ?

Since you did not answer any of my questions, why should you expect me to answer yours?

But here you go: Perhaps, who knows if there was such Ukrainians, and i would find their arguments factual and strong enough. I remain open to consider it.