Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

how do you want to deal with criminals, corrupted etc. rulers who lead one nation against other nation ? how do you want to deal when will of 10% is above will of 90% ?

First through education. Then negotiation. If it doesn't work you apply pressure ( economically, culturally, etc. ). And only using violence as a last resort ( after all I am a former professional soldier ).

But using violence show how weak you and your arguments are, that you are unable to convince nor be respected. Didn't any of you read Sun Tzu? The Art of War or any classics?

Do you really think that the US is more respected in the Middle East after the Invasion of Iraq? It's feared. But fear is the last thing you want your partners to have. I would trust no one that is afraid of me.

---------- Post added at 03:12 ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 ----------

If you don't want to read Sun Tzu or the classics, at least read the Game of Thrones saga or watch the series. You will see what happen to those who rule with strength and fear...

[Xalteva 10]

You mean like in South Africa with Mandela?

War / Violence is always the failure of the intelligence

BTW a democracy is not the dictatorship of the majority but a system where all parts are represented.

Read about north korean history ! the right way to build a democracy !

[maturin 12]

I doubt that the invasion of Iraq made the U.S. feared. After all, it only showed the world our limits, as our enemies (Iran and al Qaeda) prospered from the situation. And it made similar invasions highly unlikely for years to come. That's like the exact opposite of a demonstrable threat. Iraq squandered the immense amount of goodwill, political capital and soft power that we had immediately after 9/11. And it took a chunk out of our hard power too, ballooning the deficit in order to create a military that's better at occupying than projecting power or forming a deterrent.

and democracy may not always be the right way to go.

Thing is, the alternatives all involve butchering your own people every twenty years, or torturing a few of them in the meantime. Authoritarianism can only be peaceful in a place like Bhutan where a pre-modern social contract is still in effect. All the smug strongmen who think that they're saving their countries from chaos are just taking out a loan on peace. When their personality-based regimes crumble, the interest is due in blood. We might as well start the countdown for a Russian intervention in post-Nazarbayev Kazakhstan now, for example.

Edited June 19, 2014 by maturin

[Tonci87 163]

This is such an absurd conflict. No one in Crimea or the east would have been in the slightest physical danger, nor seen their daily life even change, had the separatists never taken up arms.

If Kiev is run by genocidal fascists, then why is everything calm and peaceful in Kharkiv?!?

You are 100% right there. I mean the worst thing is that they didn´t even try to talk, they just took arms..... Blinded by propaganda....

[mistyronin 1181]

Read about north korean history ! the right way to build a democracy !

I don't get your point. What does North Korea has to do with democracy? ( BTW I read some books about Korean history in the past ).

I doubt that the invasion of Iraq made the U.S. feared. After all, it only showed the world our limits, as our enemies (Iran and al Qaeda) prospered from the situation.

It made the US feared because showed how they can eventually go there, create mayhem, remove a dictator, and kill thousands of Iraqis.

Of course that fear was precisely the one that increased the hate against the US. If some aliens came now to the Earth and with their super mega technology start killing people like flies... You will fear them, but also hate them, and you will organize yourselves better to front them, learning from their weakness and waiting for the weak spot ( that's what both ISIS and the Taliban did ).

As I said before trying to rule with strength and fear is the worst and weakest way.

If you want to rule for a long time. The only way is make people care about you, respect you, understand you, love you. That also applies to non militar leadership, anyone read about Engels?

Hell even in the Lord of the Rings you can learn about basic leadership.

Edited June 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 474]

o gosh

really , westernians are so naive Misty , dear Misty :)

education ?

how do you want educate those who see better profit somewhere ?

hahahahaha

c'mon

do you tell someone who is greed "oh sir, if you will respect me, you will earn 70% less" ? if he can have this 70% ?

noone sane gonna resign from having bigger profit, bigger territory, bigger resources etc.

you cannot educate someone to "be looser" if he can be winner,

wars are not because someone is uneducated (except Islamists), but because someone IS educated, especially in economy , if he can earn much more than he do all to achieve this goal, like WW2 , what Hitler wanted ? give Germans more land, turn Slavic nations to slaves to be cheapest labor ever,

why there was colonial wars in past ?because we were uneducated ? no, because colonial nations WERE educated, they had machineguns, Africans had wooden sticks, so they could force Africans to be slaves and take their gold/oil/coal, and build their own wealth, palaces, industry,

education is not issue, more educated person is better to count profits and use tools for greed, the biggest profits are from slaves or from stolen stuff or taking social care benefits without any work (cause cost is equal zero, so profit is maximized),

education doesn'e eliminate greed, but show what tools use to get more money

education is not equal morality, our morality come from Bible and Christ so we were taught that we should be shy and helpfull, others look at us as suckers

about US and Middle East i do not want to talk to not make 1000 lines post about what is real danger to us here in Europe in 2030-2040 because someone is irrational and believes in something and is ready to kill us all for it

system of values is not relying on education

values and beliefs are values and beliefs

moral system is moral system

if someone believes that one thing is bad and other is good - it doesn't equal basis to judge if he is stupid or intelligent

we can tell someone is undeducated if his beliefs are opposite to scientific founds (earth is flat, there were dinosaurs, water freez at 0 C)

but "kill criminal or let him live, eat animals or eat vegetables, have profit at all cost, cure cancer or spend money on new palace for president, abortion" is not connected with education it is simply moral system different in locations

Edited June 19, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

o gosh

really , westernians are so naive Misty , dear Misty :)

education ?

how do you want educate those who see better profit somewhere ?

Let's make it simple, what got better results. The US post-war strategy in The German Federal Republic, giving them founds, education, resources, etc.? Or the US post-war strategy in Iraq, using mainly weapons and fear, not talking the language, nor trying to understand the underlying problems...

The best weapon Africa has nowadays is precisely education. With education they can learn how to use better their resources, how the common wealth-fare is better for all than ones being rich and others poor.

For instance, here in Finland I can leave my bike in the street without any chain without fearing that someone is gonna steal it. Why? because everyone has quality education and know that is better to have a bit less but live in peace and safety than to have a lot but having to always be afraid.

That's why slaves are so useless. Because if you force someone to do something that they don't want, they will be less efficient and even counter-efficient ( a good example were the jews in the German industrial concentration camps, that boycotted and jeopardized the war industry, creating a lot of logistic problems to the OKW ).

As more humanity evolve, less effectivity has the strength and the fear and more important is the intelligence and keep everyone happy and motivated ( that's why the advertisements, etc. ).

Because happy educated and motivated people, work better, longer, are more creative, solve more problems, feel more identified with the company and their success, etc.

[vilas 474]

if you wanna go that deep in non- Ukraine, than okay:

Germany post WW2 vs Iraq ?

how much property, banks had Jews in those 2 regions before those 2 wars ? how far from one or another country there is to UK ? how much US banks can earn in one and other location, how much industrial relations can US keep with Germany and Iraq, how much was risk of USSR invasion on UK, France, in European location and in MIddle East location ? what resources has Germany except brains ?

GDR was wall against USSR, Iraq ? wall against what ? who needed strong Iraq , or rather , who need strong countries in that region at all ? it is better to make there mess, than they kill each other because of their clans and we sell them jeeps and rifles and concrete to rebuild buildings bombed there, then they are not strong enough to attack us, simple counting

Africa you say... Africa, how Africa looks ? wars, genocides, 30% AIDS, starvation and corruption, is there better place for big mining corporations ? :D

educate them, and they will get rid of western big mining corporations and profits of top rich guys in this planet will fall down like houses in Warsaw in 1944,

you can leave bike in Finland cause you do not have too much emigrants and because everyone gonna report it to police and because your police is effective and every your neigbor has assault rifle nearby ?

why you cannot leave this bike in Poland ?

because judge will let guy free, because everyone afraid of gangster who drinks with policemen, because noone has gun and only gangster has it and can beat you, education or fear ?

or your woman can take a walk in Marsilie suburbs the same way like in peacefull Tennesse town where everyone keeps dozen of M16 and there are 1000 police cameras on every corner :)

really Misty - it has NOTHING to education but only to fear and effective penal/justice system , leave your bike in my area, we are educated, we have Masters degree here, but police and judge doesn't do their jobs, but they also have masters degree and only person with 10 years Krav-Maga expirience and pistol is gangster , i propose you leave bike in my area and walk there with wallet in hand in friday nighttime around Stalowa or Zabkowska street

slaves - how to make them obey and love ? create religion so they will believe that you are god :D thats why for we have mainstream media, MTV, fashion, all brainwashing shit which makes people belive they must work 12 hours to buy "that shirt" and who believe they must work harder because "company is in crisis" and they work harder because they believe that this car is must have but costs so much,

Edited June 19, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

education is not equal morality, our morality come from Bible and Christ so we were taught that we should be shy and helpfull, others look at us as suckers

about US and Middle East i do not want to talk to not make 1000 lines post about what is real danger to us here in Europe in 2030-2040 because someone is irrational and believes in something and is ready to kill us all for it

I'm sorry but that is a bit over-paranoic. How many Middle Easterns have you meet?

I have some Iraqi friends, a Turkish brother-in-law, all of them educated and 100% muslims. I'll trust them with my life without any doubt ( I'm even afraid that I'd be more selfish in a extrem situation than them, and I was educated in a Catholic Private School ). Obviously if we are unable to understand them, respect them, and help the Middle East nations, then we are gonna be screwed.

BTW did you know that the main immigrant group in Finland are Somalians? closely followed by Russians, Afghanies, Iraqis, etc.

I also lived in countries like Spain with more than 13% of immigration. Hell, Sweden is one of the countries with more immigration in Europe!

If only Finland has a % of immigration 5 times Poland.

Edited June 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 474]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_laXbJ3n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x76t1etQo5g

< killing pets included and attack on woman in short skirt

plus i was almost robbed last time on trip by 4 of them trying to rob me from my camera or rob other guys from trip in Italy , plus my friend was attacked in London for drinking beer , plus i know a guy (Egyptian coptic Christian, so guy is Arab native but Coptic Christian) who had to escape from Egypt to not be killed etc.

we gonna have civil war in EU in 2040 if you will be still that naive

i can post you 10000 more YT vidoes but they are +18 cause contain killing by guys shouting "Allah Akbar"

Edited June 19, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

plus i was almost robbed last time on trip by 4 of them trying to rob me from my camera or rob other guys from trip in Italy , plus my friend was attacked in London for drinking beer , plus i know a guy (Egyptian coptic Christian) who had to escape from Egypt to not be killed etc.

You talked from fear. But how many times have you talked with Middle Eastern guys? How many times have you been in their houses, sleep under the same roof, meet their families, eat their food, listen to what they have to say?

BTW only one time in my life that I was almost robbed, it was by a group of 8 guys that surrounded me, were all white christian Europeans... And I've been in more street fights than I can count, none of them with any immigrant ( all with white Europeans ).

You live in a country with virtually no immigration ( less than 1% ). Imagine in a country like Sweden with 16% of immigration ( a 25% in Stockholm ). And you know what? Is one of the most safer of the whole world.

[vilas 474]

need more ? and watch YT i posted before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcpn_x-eUMI and such happens in Poland (i was also robbed once in my life on street with knife, by Gypsie)

[mistyronin 1181]

need more ? and watch YT i posted before

Do you know that I'm working with immigration every day, it's my job. I have meet people from all over the globe ( and besides my job I traveled most of Europe and a bit of the North of Africa ). And everyone has more or less the same needs, we all want safety, food, hobbies, a beautiful wife/husband/whatever, etc.

Of course there are idiots and extremists, but you can find them white, asiatic, african, and from every race and culture. And most of them can be dealt with education.

[Beagle 684]

"And most of them can be dealt with education."

What we call education in the northrn hemissphere today ist just another form of indoctrination. And don't forget that the left movement terror that emerged from the students movement in europe came straight from those university students.

All over europe a lot of those "rock throwers and firestarters" are more or less respected politicians and even statesmen now....why other got killed by cops or spend the last 30 years in jail. Most of the original RAF terrorist were not realeased before their 50's.

[mistyronin 1181]

What we call education in the northrn hemissphere today ist just another form of indoctrination.

I don't know what you consider education. But IMO is to teach certain skills ( reading, writing, grammar, basic accountancy, etc. ) so a person is able to develop on his own ( for instance reading books from Shakespeare, to the Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifest ).

[vilas 474]

I don't know what you consider education.

university degree, high school, knowledge that earth is not flat and how to use machines etc.

politicall corectness is not KNOWLEDGE , it is just belief almost like religion

knowledge is "globe has radius = 6370 km, capital city of Chile is Santiago, 2^3=8, Pi=3.14159..., battle of Grunwald was in year 1410, population of Lithuania is 3 milion people, ... etc. " < this is education

telling that someone loves peace while there are milions videos showing him cutting others throat is rather opposite to education cause education is knowledge about facts,

rest like if people in east Ukraine have right to fight or not is matter of belief, people have full right to be bigots or "politically correct" if they want, it is a matter of belief, not education, otherwise education=brainwashing if it says that "bigots" are "idiots", idiots are those who say that earth is flat and because of females driving cars there are earthquakes

meanwhile on Ukraine according to Polish press there is battle since morning with the use of military vehicles "tanks", journalists (technical education) may confuse APC with tank, but they say that there is huge mess right now in Ukraine,

Edited June 19, 2014 by vilas

[surpher 1]

(AP) NATO: Russians resume buildup near Ukraine

Russia has resumed a military buildup near Ukraine, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Thursday, calling it "a very regrettable step backward."

(Reuters) OSCE says re-established contact with missing observers in Ukraine

The OSCE has re-established contact with two teams of observers that went missing in eastern Ukraine last month, a spokesman for the democracy watchdog said on Thursday, adding that its monitors were unharmed.

"We now have contact with both teams," a spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said, adding the contacts had been re-established in the past 48 hours.

Edited June 19, 2014 by surpher

[mistyronin 1181]

( Reuters ) Ukraine rebels speak of heavy losses in battle against government troops

Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian separatists were locked in fierce fighting in the east of Ukraine on Thursday and a rebel commander acknowledged big losses among separatists heavily outgunned by government forces.

Even as President Petro Poroshenko and his team prepared to unveil their blueprint for ending more than two months of rebellion, government forces, using artillery and heavy armour, said they were tightening the noose on separatists near Krasny Liman, north of the main regional hub of Donetsk.

Government forces said the fighting erupted in the early hours after rebels refused to lay down their arms as part of Poroshenko's peace plan.

Both Ukrainian government and rebel accounts of the fighting suggested a major battle involving armored vehicles including tanks.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Details of Poroshenko's peace plan emerge

The plan promises to decentralise power and calls for immediate disarmament in eastern Ukraine where government forces are battling pro-Russia separatists.

It also apparently proposes the creation of a 10km (6 miles) buffer zone on the Ukrainian-Russian border, and early local and parliamentary elections.

(Al Jazeera) Ukraine says regains control of Russia border

Ukraine's defence minister has said its forces have restored control of the border with Russia and can now prevent military equipment being brought across the frontier, as a second successive day of fighting continued in the east.

"Our forces have completed the encirclement of the problem region and restored the state border of Ukraine. Last week we fully closed off the possibility of any military equipment being brought in from the Russian Federation," acting Defence Minister Mykhailo Koval said.

Reports of Russian military movements.

(Ukraine@war) Open Russian invasion into Ukraine has begun

Edited June 20, 2014 by surpher

[Tonci87 163]

Reports of Russian military movements.

(Ukraine@war) Open Russian invasion into Ukraine has begun

I don´t believe those tweets....

If Russia decides to invade then there will be no doubt that it is really them, because the first thing they will do is to bomb/artillery the ever living crap out of Ukrainian Airports and bases.

[mistyronin 1181]

( RT ) Russia deployed more troops to Ukraine border to ensure security – Kremlin

- - -

Seems that the young Vice reporter is not good at Russian, according to the commentators in the webside he has missed some words, or interpret them in a wrong way.

Edited June 20, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 474]

I don´t believe those tweets....

me to, in Polish news we have that President of Ukraine says that he want ceasefire for week to give chance to lay down weapons by separatists, last day 300 of them were killed,

issue is what were movements from territory of Russia, because it is unforgivable if one country allow to cross border by trucks with arms, APC etc. for sure Russia as country break rules again , because allowing to cross border by militants or APC is like war, it is not invasion, but it is breaking borders of other country, which Russian Border Guard should prevent but they agreed

meanwhile Osetia country created by Russia from Georgian part says they recognize Lugansk Republic as soveirgn state and rebels said they do not give up arms, till "foreign" troops won't leave their "state" (they call foreign troops Ukrainian Army)

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/lbid,7903,title,Wladimir-Puitin-i-Petro-Poroszenko-rozmawiali-o-zawieszeniu-broni-na-wschodzie-Ukrainy,nazywo.html

Edited June 20, 2014 by vilas

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko declares ceasefire

Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko has declared a week-long unilateral ceasefire in fighting with pro-Russian militants in the east of the country.

Heavy fighting had been continuing between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russia rebels, with new reports of military hardware entering Ukraine.

The Kremlin dismissed the move, saying it was "not an invitation to peace and negotiations but an ultimatum".

Ukrainian news agencies quoted a senior rebel commander as saying the insurgents would not lay their arms until government troops had left the region.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Now we'll see if Russia makes a step in the right direction.

[maturin 12]

Now we'll see if Russia makes a step in the right direction.

The ceasefire is just a stunt. As usual, both sides demand that the other gives up the whole game before coming to the peace table. Poroshenko just gives a window for peaceful surrender, while Russia demands suspending the operation so that the rebels can cobble together civilian power structures and entrench themselves decisively.

The rebels will dismiss the ceasefire, and have no interest in negotiating. It's barely even possible to negotiate with such disparate, illegitimate groups. They know that their cause is lost unless violence continues, because Russian involvement and information war aside, civilians getting killed by stray artillery fire is the only thing that keeps the insurgency from melting away.

Edited June 21, 2014 by maturin