Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

west shows lack of balls as Ukraine,

NATO officers kidnapped and no answer from west ?

I'm afraid you are a bit confused. The West, EU, NATO or Russia etc. can't act in Ukraine without Ukraine's Gov. authorization or request; or in an extreme case with UN mandate or at least with a huge international support.

It's Ukraine's Gov. responsibility to keep order inside its borders.

Besides that certain acts could lead to a chain of events that could end really bad for everyone. I agree that EU is overcautious, and that Ukraine's Gov. should act more. But I think we'll agree that the situation is quite volatile.

Why is RT writing It should be pretty evident that they are Ukrainian soldiers, right?

You never know with RT, they could be Right Sector activist, US spec ops, teletubbies, or even aliens!

The point is to confuse the audience.

[vilas 473]

Besides that certain acts could lead to a chain of events that could end really bad for everyone

and thats why Russia sucseeed and west fails, they not care, they do what they want, so they win, they have growth, they are stronger day by day, they have more wealth grow, they have traditions preserved, they feel strong etc.

west acts passive, those who were passive lost in history eaten by others, west acts like loosers,

if Russia gonna anex part of Ukraine and west gonna write condemnation, than next steps will be Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia ? Moldavia ?

if you not respond because you afraid of actions - than in future as result you get worse actions after decades,

first thing is to fight terrorist attacks in Europe (kidnapping is act of terrorism) , USA can defend their citizens , EU countries act passive , Ukraine probably is not able to give security on their territory cause they have society divided by big minority (part want to Russia due to better economical conditions in Russia and due to tradition opposite to western tollerance cause they feel Eastern not Western)

it is shame that in west EU we have selfdestructive philosophy winning over will to be stronger and wealthy, Russians have opposite philosophy and they start to live better day by day, thats part of Ukraine do not want to be in west too, it is shown in this video well, they want order , wealth , tradition etc.

keeping care on your own people is also tradition, treating your nation people like your family is also part of tradition etc. thats why now Russia wins and we as EU fail, we should defend our people kidnapped and we should not show weakness and cowardness , cause noone will not respect neither cowards nor weak and someone can attack us in future too , one day we step back, next day someone will take our home too, we must remember that our world is not loving each other family, but we must be ready to show violence when we are in danger (like on street when you see person attacked), otherwise it can be too late some day,

Edited April 27, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Again, we are talking about Ukraine, which is not a EU or NATO country. If Ukraine's Gov. need help, they can and I'm sure will request for troops and/or resources ( I'd support international troops to keep peace in Ukraine ).

What would make no sense is to act unilaterally, it would be illegal and crazy.

[vilas 473]

afaik if US citizen is kidnapped for example in African country, US special forces react often in different countries

[spooky lynx 73]

afaik if US citizen is kidnapped for example in African country, US special forces react often in different countries

In case of US citizen having real documents. In recent case OSCE officially stated that its members are safe. Well who are those who told they are OSCE observers then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEcpZ0vwrdk

Seems thay are just NATO military servicemen performing reconnaisance operation at Donbass. That's why they are captured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX9aotpiWqk

Three SBU operatives of Alfa detachment were captured in Gorlovka and transfered to Slavianks. They were captured while attempting to seize the commander of Gorlovka self-defence. Officers told that they were forced to execute the order because of threats to their families by junta. Later in this video OSCE representative tells that servicemen captured at Donbass used OSCE as excuse but they do not belong to it.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Rydygier 1302]

Well, situation seems, so in the some foreign country band of terrorists kidnapped citizens of several countries to use them for more terror (classic extorted hostage exchange for criminal prisoners). In such case government of given country has a duty to neutralize terrorist threat and free hostages. If unable, countries, whose citizens was kidnapped, should be asked and allowed to help. One of these two things should happen immediately. Question is, what to do, if nothing of above will happen? IMO this situation helps no one and serve only as another potential cause of mentioned chain of tragic consequences. Which country can do most to solve this particular situation and prevent further escalation? Russia can. By refrain of any destabilizing actions, official and real cut off from any terrorist/separatists support in any form and allowing proper forces to act without concerns about potential Russia's reaction. Russia, simply, should withdraw from all current aggressive politics to effectively defend that way also Russians living in Ukraine from further risk, because primary source of threat for population of eastern Ukraine, also Russian, currently is Russia's stance in whole this situation. But Russia, main actively destabilizing factor out there, so far does nothing like that, instead acts opposite, as obviously interested in further escalation, bloodshed and chaos, not a peace nor "defending" anyone. Judging by actions seems, Russia wants, so people, including of Russian nationality, would suffer more.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Rydygier

[vilas 473]

spies ? they are on Ukrainian territory ! this is Ukrainian territory, not Russian, and they are legitimated by Ukrainian government, those terrorists that kidnap them should be eliminated like other criminals who kidnap people

Edited April 27, 2014 by vilas

[exe_74rus 1]

- Monya, I am for our Ukraine does not understand something ... I do not repeat, we are at war with Russia!

- So what?

- To date, the results of the Ukrainian-Russian War - disappointing. Ukraine's losses: 7 tanks, one self-propelled howitzer, 10 armored vehicles, one helicopter and one airplane. Surrendered more than 2 million people .. And what do you think? .. Russian army for the war had still not appeared! ...

[ProfTournesol 956]

In case of US citizen having real documents. In recent case OSCE officially stated that its members are safe. Well who are those who told they are OSCE observers then?

Seems thay are just NATO military servicemen performing reconnaisance operation at Donbass. That's why they are captured.

Source : OSCE website (http://www.osce.org/node/115850/)

The Special Monitoring Mission got confirmation that the military observers carrying out an inspection under the OSCE Vienna Document had been taken captive by forces of the self-proclaimed mayor of Sloviansk

Military verification

Ukraine requested OSCE participating States, OSCE partners for co-operation and the OSCE Conflict Prevention Centre (CPC) to send their representatives from 5 to 12 March 2014, invoking Chapter III of the Vienna Document 2011 which allows for voluntary hosting of visits to dispel concerns about unusual military activities.

A continuation of verification visit was later requested by Ukraine until 20 March 2014, this time to cover the south and east of the country.

During the three visits, thirty OSCE pS sent 56 unarmed military and civilian personnel to Ukraine. The group attempted to visit Crimea several times, but was unable to move beyond checkpoints at the administrative border, however, based on the observations made of the military activity the group stated that it is not able to dispel military concerns in Crimea.

These visits under the Chapter III of Vienna Document 2011 are one of the key elements of the OSCE approach to security, which seeks to foster openness and transparency as the best way to resolve conflicts.

Another group of eight unarmed military experts from individual OSCE participating States has been on the ground in Ukraine since 19 March until now working under the invitation of Ukraine.The experts are on the ground under the Chapter III of the Vienna Document on risk reduction. They look at military aspects of the security situation.

Later in this video OSCE representative tells that servicemen captured at Donbass used OSCE as excuse but they do not belong to it.

This looks ridiculous now, isn't it ? Moscow propaganda is working 100%, shamelessly defending the abduction of Ukrainian soldiers and invited foreign observers.

Edited April 27, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

afaik if US citizen is kidnapped for example in African country, US special forces react often in different countries

The US Special Forces act with the permission of the country, they only do officially without it in the case of "lawless" countries like Somalia.

Said that, some other US cover operations had happen without permission of the country, but that is illegal and those soldiers could be arrested and punished for that ( for example the Bin Laden raid ). Acts like that could cause international incidents and even be a casus belli for a war.

- - - -

About the military observers, precisely their job was to observe what was happening there and what forces and with what kind of armament the insurgents had.

Obviously they were in Ukraine under Ukrainian Gov. authorization, so they had all the right legally to be there ( so its impossible by any means that they were spies ). It would be the same as if the FARC in Colombia kidnaps some foreigner.

[ProfTournesol 956]

About the military observers, precisely their job was to observe what was happening there and what forces and with what kind of armament the insurgents had.

Obviously they were in Ukraine under Ukrainian Gov. authorization, so they had all the right legally to be there ( so its impossible by any means that they were spies ). It would be the same as if the FARC in Colombia kidnaps some foreigner.

Yep, but Moscow doesn't know the difference between observing and spying obviously :)

[mistyronin 1181]

Yep, but Moscow doesn't know the difference between observing and spying obviously :)

I think it depends to what you refer as Moscow. If you talk about the official sources of the Russian Fed. Gov. I don't remember any declaration calling that observers spies.

( EuroNews ) Russia offers to help free OSCE observers held by separatists in Ukraine

On the other hand the propaganda press, some of it directly funded and ruled by the Russian Fed. Gov. have spread that missinformation, but the same they are spreading all kind of other missinformations to escalate the situation and provoke chaos in Eastern Ukraine.

But even some of that press, for instance the "more serious" RIA Novosti seem to be cautious:

( RIA Novosti ) Kiev Loses Contact With OSCE Experts in Donetsk Region

[ProfTournesol 956]

I think it depends to what you refer as Moscow. If you talk about the official sources of the Russian Fed. Gov. I don't remember any declaration calling that observers spies.

Fair enough. Sometimes politically oriented medias go further than the governement they are backing (remember FoxNews during the Iraki venture under Bush administration).

[arttem 1]

I think it depends to what you refer as Moscow. If you talk about the official sources of the Russian Fed. Gov. I don't remember any declaration calling that observers spies.

( EuroNews ) Russia offers to help free OSCE observers held by separatists in Ukraine

On the other hand the propaganda press, some of it directly funded and ruled by the Russian Fed. Gov. have spread that missinformation, but the same they are spreading all kind of other missinformations to escalate the situation and provoke chaos in Eastern Ukraine.

But even some of that press, for instance the "more serious" RIA Novosti seem to be cautious:

( RIA Novosti ) Kiev Loses Contact With OSCE Experts in Donetsk Region

Thank you Misty. Somebody must be in sober mind. And see where is real Russians and where is adventurers. My respect to you.

[vilas 473]

maybe "separtists" "are more willing to be Russia than Russia want them" , they see Russia has better financial status and want to get this status

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Pro-Russian gunmen show seized monitors

The observers from Germany, Denmark, Poland, Sweden and the Czech Republic were presented to reporters in Sloviansk on Sunday.

The monitors - who were captured in the flashpoint town on Friday - were led into the building by masked gunmen.

"All the European officers are in good health and no-one is sick," said German monitor Axel Schneider, according to Reuters.

"We have no indication when we will be sent home to our countries."

The observers were also quoted as saying they were "guests, not prisoners of war".

Earlier in the day, an OSCE source told the BBC that the group's negotiating team had been sent to Sloviansk to try to secure the release of the monitors.

The source declined to say how many negotiators were heading to the flashpoint eastern town.

Meanwhile, Sloviansk's self-declared mayor Vyacheslav Ponomaryov said there was the possibility of exchanging the monitors for militia members held by the Kiev government.

Forced 'guests' that don't know when are they gonna be allowed to go, and that can be used as an exchange coin...

IMO after acts like this, Putin should clearly distance himself from that extremists and condemn their actions.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

Yep, but Moscow doesn't know the difference between observing and spying obviously :)

We have long-time record of co-operating with OSCE, and many times servicemen in Chechnya noted that everything seen by OSCE observers soon became known by Dudayev's rebels. So for many of us OSCE observing = spying. Sad but true.

[ProfTournesol 956]

We have long-time record of co-operating with OSCE, and many times servicemen in Chechnya noted that everything seen by OSCE observers soon became known by Dudayev's rebels. So for many of us OSCE observing = spying. Sad but true.

There are probably much better ways to spy than sending a bunch of guys travelling around in a bus.

[vilas 473]

there cannot be saying about spying when official government of Ukraine introduce someone to territory of Ukraine , those who kidnap people are becoming terrorists,

[spooky lynx 73]

There are probably much better ways to spy than sending a bunch of guys travelling around in a bus.

Agree. But travelling in camo suits with IDs of the states who support junta across the territory which population isn't friendly much to NATO during so called anti-terrorist operation - that's not good idea at all.

[mistyronin 1181]

We have long-time record of co-operating with OSCE, and many times servicemen in Chechnya noted that everything seen by OSCE observers soon became known by Dudayev's rebels. So for many of us OSCE observing = spying. Sad but true.

Uhm, your point is that when Russia was fighting in Chechnya, the OSCE observers were spying for Chechnya Army ( remember that after the first war Chechnya was an independent country ). Ok.

So now you are saying that the OSCE is spying who? The Ukrainian Army? Can't be as they authorized them and even escort them. Russia? Well the OSCE observers were kidnaped in Ukraine territory; besides that Russia was informed of their mission. So who were they supposed to spy? There are no other legal forces there.

If you mean that they were "spying" the armed insurgents, as they are not a legal force, just a bunch of criminals that doesn't apply ( in any country of the world to rise in arms and hijack a territory is a serious crime; try to do that in Russia ).

Agree. But travelling in camo suits with IDs of the states who support junta across the territory which population isn't friendly much to NATO during so called anti-terrorist operation - that's not good idea at all.

The ones you call Junta are the official government of Ukraine, recognized even by Putin. Remember when they meet in Geneve and even reach an agreement.

[spooky lynx 73]

So now you are saying that the OSCE is spying who? The Ukrainian Army? Can't be as they authorized them and even escort them. Russia? Well the OSCE observers were kidnaped in Ukraine territory; besides that Russia was informed of their mission. So who were they supposed to spy? There are no other legal forces there.

If you mean that they were "spying" the armed insurgents, as they are not a legal force, just a bunch of criminals that doesn't apply ( in any country of the world to rise in arms and hijack a territory is a serious crime; try to do that in Russia ).

They act in the interests of junta, simple. Neither army nor SBU or MVD can perform successful reconnaisance at the territory controlled by anti-government forces.

As for the crime - I totally agree with you but unfortunately the same acts in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Macedonia, Libya, Syria were not recognized as crimes but 'struggle against tyranic regime' or 'struggle of the %nation_name% for independence'. So in real life recognition of such acts fully depends on what sides are those who do it.

The ones you call Junta are the official government of Ukraine, recognized even by Putin. Remember when they meet in Geneve and even reach an agreement.

They may be government together with being junta, one does not counter another.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The so called activists released one of the men, suffering from diabete : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27180103

[akm74 1]

- Monya, I am for our Ukraine does not understand something ... I do not repeat, we are at war with Russia!

- So what?

- To date, the results of the Ukrainian-Russian War - disappointing. Ukraine's losses: 7 tanks, one self-propelled howitzer, 10 armored vehicles, one helicopter and one airplane. Surrendered more than 2 million people .. And what do you think? .. Russian army for the war had still not appeared! ...

+1 good one...

[mistyronin 1181]

They act in the interests of junta, simple. Neither army nor SBU or MVD can perform successful reconnaisance at the territory controlled by anti-government forces.

A Junta is mainly a word to describe a joint staff of military that controls power, not this case ( a broad definition would mean any ruling council for any organization, country, assembly, neighborhood ). Wiktionary.

And the anti-government forces that you talk about have not been legitimatize by the Donetsk Region population, unlike the actual provisional Kiev Gov. ( that was elected by 73% of Ukrainian's parliament, whose members were voted by all the Ukrainians ).

As for the crime - I totally agree with you but unfortunately the same acts in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Macedonia, Libya, Syria were not recognized as crimes but 'struggle against tyranic regime' or 'struggle of the %nation_name% for independence'. So in real life recognition of such acts fully depends on what sides are those who do it.

I'm afraid we are talking about two different things.

One is when the people of a region with a clean democratic vote * decide to get its independence from a country ( for example Slovenia, Croatia or Kosovo ). This is a case that is recognized in the International Law, it's the right of self-determination.

The other is when groups of people without any legibility take the streets using widely war weapons and terrorize the population ( not to confuse with a violent demonstration ), the case in Eastern Ukraine.

As you have seen the legitimization is given by the people who lives in the region ( in democracy it's the people who makes the laws ).

* It's not the Crimean case, as Crimean people voted in illegal Russian military controlled Referendum, that BTW was promoted by a member of the Crimean parliament with less than 5% of the votes.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MistyRonin