Ukraine General

[Sub-Human 10]

Someone should be surprised if there was not an order and at least a short term plan, what do you guys think how they would otherwise organize the soldier and the referendum later on.

It isn't a surprise to anyone - the Crimean medals are all dated 20th February. We just want to hear it the man himself admit his crime.

you call the local population "Russian protester"? nice

Irregardless - shooting occured a whole month after 'local population' (we both know who it actually was) started raiding administrative buildings and arming themselves. So you saying 'it all began like this' and then post a video dated 11th May - a pretty clear example of propaganda to me.

Of course when you show a video of a some armed man shooting into an angry crowd and then come to the conclusion that Kiev is a Nazi junta - doesn't do much to convince me.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Sub-Human

[Tonci87 163]

the same can be written about you. In Russian Internet space also constantly exposed to western media fakes, there was already accustomed and treated with understanding and irony.

There has already been a lot of irrefutable video evidence, but many still do not notice or think it fekes where people do a shoot themselves burn themselves, explode conditioners etc.

Please go ahead! I´m open minded, I´m neither strictly Pro-NATO, pro USA or pro Ukraine. I´m also not anti-Russia (Anti-Putin, yes).

Please show us those western media fakes, please do. Because the only things you have been doing so far is something like that Jatzenuk video where you take things completely out of context or have a bad translation. And no, we are not interested in graphic videos, don´t PM me with that stuff, don´t PM me at all. If you have a video and you feel that you can´t post it in this thread then it propably is nothing of interest.

[aleksadragutin 9]

It´s not easy when certain forum members have been proven wrong again and again and again in this thread and yet they always come back with the same old stories and arguments and then go completely quiet when you call them out on the nonsense they write. They can have as many different interpretations as they want, but I have the feeling that he is not interested in discussion. Everything that is against his point of view (wich is roughly the same as the one russian state media has) gets immediatelly dismissed. This goes so far to really border on flamebaiting and trolling. I really would welcome if he was more critical towards the stuff he gets presented on TV and Russian Forums and if he was more open to mutual discussion.

Aren't you doing the same thing? In your opinion he's stubborn, misinformed and trolling, while you view your self as always right off course. How is this a "discussion"?

The proving wrong again and again and again part I don't understand. In most of the discussions very few things have actually been proven, pro or con.

Edited March 10, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

Aren't you doing the same thing? In your opinion he's stubborn, misinformed and trolling, while you view your self as always right off course. How is this a "discussion"?

The proving wrong again and again and again part I don't understand. In most of the discussions very few things have actually been proven, pro or con.

Well I pointed out his most recent example. Him saying that there was no Russian invasion in Crimea. Do you remember when that happened certain people here were like: Those are all locals who bought their gear in local shops? Another nice example. I could go on, but I really can´t be arsed to. And really, it is not my fault that they choose to stick to the official russian press line wich proved to be mostly full of made up bullshit.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Tonci87

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well I pointed out his most recent example. Him saying that there was no Russian invasion in Crimea. Do you remember when that happened certain people here were like: Those are all locals who bought their gear in local shops? Another nice example. I could go on, but I really can´t be arsed to. And really, it is not my fault that they choose to stick to the official russian press line wich proved to be mostly full of made up bullshit.

Ok, what about the most recent NATO statements, a couple of pages back, or the coup that started it all? Is it really just the big bad wolf Russia launching all the propaganda? My point in this thread has always been that this is a tug of war, and Russia cant play it by itself, it needs an opponent which in this case is NATO. A simple clash of interests and Ukraine got the short end of it. If you're quick to point out Russian propaganda, what about the loads of crap coming from the US? Doesn't that count?

Remind me, how did the US react when it saw USSR spread in Cuba? It's the same with Ukraine, only now it's NATO that's trying to spread.

Edited March 10, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

And we are full circle again... "The US acted like a dick, so Russia can do it too"

[aleksadragutin 9]

And we are full circle again... "The US acted like a dick, so Russia can do it too"

I didn't say that (you like to twist words a lot), I said that both blocks are acting like dicks from time to time, and that Russia is not the only guilty party here (I believe that the organizers of the coup and those that backed them are to blame). In fact Russian behavior is completely understandable and logical in a given situation. The fact that it is in Ukraine is just though luck for Ukrainians. The war hasn't got anything to do with crazy Russia conquering the world again, as often depicted. Think about it in a broader context, what would you have done?

Edited March 10, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

I didn't say that (you like to twist words a lot), I said that both blocks are acting like dicks from time to time, and that Russia is not the only guilty party here (I believe that the organizers of the coup and those that backed them are to blame). In fact Russian behavior is completely understandable and logical in a given situation. The fact that it is in Ukraine is just though luck for Ukrainians. The war hasn't got anything to do with crazy Russia conquering the world again, as often depicted. Think about it in a broader context, what would you have done?

So you think that there was no alternative to invasion and war for Putin?

[aleksadragutin 9]

So you think that there was no alternative to invasion and war for Putin?

Was there?

[Tonci87 163]

There is always an alternative to war, unless you are beeing invaded of course.

[aleksadragutin 9]

There is always an alternative to war, unless you are beeing invaded of course.

You can view this as a sort of an intrusion of NATO in the Russian sphere of interests. Imagine a coup in a bordering country that replaced a friendly government, and then having a possibility of enemy nuclear missiles and troops being stationed right next to your border. Even a small possibility of anything like that happening is more than enough to provoke this kind of a reaction. Not to mention the large number of Russian speakers. What is the alternative? Would they back down if you ask them politely?

[oxmox 73]

The proving wrong again and again and again part I don't understand. In most of the discussions very few things have actually been proven, pro or con.

For example the story about the Maidan and death tolls as a result wasnt even properly investigated, other events share the same problem.

But some think everything "seems to be clear" - no it is not and many other events aswell - point.

I tell you something, some in the forum here claim things and are "sure about it" which isnt the case at all.

Some just throw around phrases, copying the pure media view and dont bring something into question.

I understand that people who are living in the countries which are a part of the conflict react maybe sometimes more aggressiv, trying to defend their countries own position and have a different view but it is irretating if someone has nothing direct in common with the conflict.

And we are full circle again... "The US acted like a dick, so Russia can do it too"

The problem is that in our world the morals and international laws were disregarded, conflicts accused with lies and propaganda and that mainly by the western world since the end of the cold war. Especially by our american friends after they could not excuse their events with a threat of communism like during the cold war before. But after the collaps of the Sovjetunion they just did go ahead with their reckless "stratgies" of supremacy.

The model defined with slogans like democracy, freedom and justice did suffer as a model in the world. It is important to get back to the roots what our free societies represent. If the world leading nations fail to provide such a model anymore it is no wonder that such values get soften and other countries follow a similar path.

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

You can view this as a sort of an intrusion of NATO in the Russian sphere of interests. Imagine a coup in a bordering country that replaced a friendly government, and then having a possibility of enemy nuclear missiles and troops being stationed right next to your border. Even a small possibility of anything like that happening is more than enough to provoke this kind of a reaction. Not to mention the large number of Russian speakers. What is the alternative? Would they back down if you ask them politely?

Still no reason to start a war. Russia could have tried to resolve this crysis diplomatically, maybe by promoting another pro Russian candidate in Ukraine, by offering the Ukrainian companies better trading deals etc etc there are lots of ways for such a big and rich country to get what it wants without a war. Putin however choose to use the opportunity to present himself as the strong man again. He invaded a neighboring country (there really is no excuse for what he did there), outright took a good chunk of their land, and then put people in place that control another huge chunk for him.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Still no reason to start a war. Russia could have tried to resolve this crysis diplomatically, maybe by promoting another pro Russian candidate in Ukraine, by offering the Ukrainian companies better trading deals etc etc there are lots of ways for such a big and rich country to get what it wants without a war. Putin however choose to use the opportunity to present himself as the strong man again. He invaded a neighboring country (there really is no excuse for what he did there), outright took a good chunk of their land, and then put people in place that control another huge chunk for him.

Mhm, I'm sure he could reason with these people.

Let's not forget that hey had the support of Washington and Berlin, so just dealing with them wasn't gonna cut it.

As I seem to remember, Putin did offer a deal which involved Ukraine not taking steps towards the EU, that's why the protests started in the first place. I shouldn't use the word naive a lot, but that really is a naive look at things.

Edited March 10, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[oxmox 73]

Still no reason to start a war. Russia could have tried to resolve this crysis diplomatically, maybe by promoting another pro Russian candidate in Ukraine, by offering the Ukrainian companies better trading deals etc etc there are lots of ways for such a big and rich country to get what it wants without a war. Putin however choose to use the opportunity to present himself as the strong man again. He invaded a neighboring country (there really is no excuse for what he did there), outright took a good chunk of their land, and then put people in place that control another huge chunk for him.

The violence of the souvereignty of the Ukraine shouldnt be the case, thats right.

---> Are the diplomatically solutions during the Maidan forgotten already ?

On the 21th February 2014, the Ukrainian opposition did sign a deal with the President to end the crisis.

The german foreign minister Steinmeier and the polish foreign minister did testify it.

At the same time the Ukrainian Parlament did vote with 386 from 450 for the former constitution of the Ukraine from 2004.

The signatories agreed on the following points (google translated):

1) The fact that a special law enacted within 48 hours after signing the contract, signed and proclaimed that introduces the 2004 Constitution again. The signatories declare their intention to form a coalition and form a government of national unity within ten days.

2) The immediate start of work on constitutional reform, which regulates the new powers of the President, the Government and the Parliament. The constitutional reform to be completed in September 2014.

3) Early presidential elections will take place as soon as the new constitution was adopted, but not later 2014 than in December new election laws are passed, and a new Central Election Commission, on the basis of proportionality and in accordance with the rules of the OSCE and Venice Commission be formed.

4) The joint analysis of recent acts of violence. The authorities will be supported by the opposition and the Euro Europe monitored.

5) The authorities will not impose a state of emergency. The authorities and the opposition to refrain from the use of force. Parliament will adopt a third amnesty, amnesty is the same as the area of ​​illegal actions cover the amnesty of 17 February 2014. Both parties are serious efforts at normalization of life in towns and villages, by withdrawing from administrative and public buildings and by unlocking streets, parks and squares, do. Illegal arms should contact the Home Office within 24 hours after the special law in force, under item 1 of this document are passed. After this date, all cases of illegal transportation and storage of weapons fall back under the laws of Ukraine. The authorities and the opposition will reduce the confrontation. The government will use the forces of order on the Physical Protection of public buildings.

6) The foreign ministers of France, Germany, Poland and the representative of the President of Russia call for an end to the violence and confrontation immediately.

--> What happened - for example they called Klitschko as one of the opposition leaders a traitor on the streets -,despite the opposition leaders did sign this agreement with the government, parts of the protesters on the streets did reject it and the protests changed later into violence lead by radical protest groups (right wing sector ?). They tried to storm the presidental palace and government buildings.

Kannst alles in deutsch lesen:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereinbarung_%C3%BCber_die_Beilegung_der_Krise_in_der_Ukraine

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

The violence of the souvereignty of the Ukraine shouldnt be the case, thats right.

---> Are the diplomatically solutions during the Maidan forgotten already ?

On the 21th February 2014, the Ukrainian opposition did sign a deal with the President to end the crisis.

The german foreign minister Steinmeier and the polish foreign minister did testify it.

At the same time the Ukrainian Parlament did vote with 386 from 450 for the former constitution of the Ukraine from 2004.

The signatories agreed on the following points (google translated):

What happened, despite the opposition leaders did sign this agreement with the government, parts of the protesters on the streets did reject it and the protests changed later into violence lead by radical protest groups. They tried to storm the presidental palace and government buildings.

Kannst alles in deutsch lesen:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereinbarung_%C3%BCber_die_Beilegung_der_Krise_in_der_Ukraine

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

And the same night after signing that agreement Janukowytsch fled the country. The presidential palace was stormed after the people learned that he is gone. Why did he flee the country? Because he knew that the violence spiraled so far out of control (for wich he bears a great responsibility) that he is done if the people see how much money he has been stealing, and that if the protesters get to him or if he has to step down (wich was agreed upon in the agreement) he will face harsh consequences. He fucked up royally, and his boss in Moscow could have told him much sooner to not fuck up that much.

[clifdenhill 1]

I not sure any needs to argue about who's lying or who's worse the us or Russia cause pretty sure they're both lying about something. both also have pretty messed up history and it's not like either ones foreign policy is good.

js since ppl keep arguing. I think best to just keep putting up news and video links like before and determine what we think ourselves based some shared info:o

[oxmox 73]

And the same night after signing that agreement Janukowytsch fled the country. The presidential palace was stormed after the people learned that he is gone. Why did he flee the country? Because he knew that the violence spiraled so far out of control (for wich he bears a great responsibility) that he is done if the people see how much money he has been stealing, and that if the protesters get to him or if he has to step down (wich was agreed upon in the agreement) he will face harsh consequences. He fucked up royally, and his boss in Moscow could have told him much sooner to not fuck up that much.

Why did he flee, because he was under pressure and like posted before he saw the events as a coup de´etat. The Maidan at the end was not a peaceful protest at all. You can see dozens of videos how the protesters did use massive force against the police. It was a street war.

The protesters did fuck up the attempt of a dimplomatic solution. Instead of following the agreement between the opposition and the government and the option for a democratically re-election they did choose a different way and at the end the right sector did lead the massive violent action.

There was a huge chance to solve the crisis with diplomacy. The topple of the President was at the end unconstitutional.

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Why did he flee, because he was under pressure and like posted before he saw the events as a coup de´etat. The Maidan at the end was not a peaceful protest at all. You can see dozens of videos how the protesters did use massive force against the police. It was a street war.

The protesters did fuck up the attempt of a dimplomatic solution. Instead of following the agreement between the opposition and the government and the option for a democratically re-election they did choose a different way and at the end the right sector did lead the massive violent action.

There was a huge chance to solve the crisis with diplomacy

Yes, the Maidan was not a peacefull protest anymore. It started as one and I think Janukowytsch is the one who is mainly to blame that it got out of control.

The protesters simply didn´t trust Janukowytsch any more. They feared that he would find a way to circumvent the agreement if he was to remain in power. Quite frankly, after that bloodshed he should have steped down immediatelly (wich of course he couldn´t do because of all the money he stole and the trouble he caused). Instead of following the agreement he immediatelly fled the country. He didn´t spontaneusly decide to flee to Russia, I believe that even when he signed the agreement he already had prepared his trip.

[oxmox 73]

Yes, the Maidan was not a peacefull protest anymore. It started as one and I think Janukowytsch is the one who is mainly to blame that it got out of control.

The protesters simply didn´t trust Janukowytsch any more. They feared that he would find a way to circumvent the agreement if he was to remain in power. Quite frankly, after that bloodshed he should have steped down immediatelly (wich of course he couldn´t do because of all the money he stole and the trouble he caused). Instead of following the agreement he immediatelly fled the country. He didn´t spontaneusly decide to flee to Russia, I believe that even when he signed the agreement he already had prepared his trip.

This doesnt change the fact that there was a diplomatic chance. Why he did flee and under what circumstances doesnt matter at the end.

And about the violence, if you provoke it you get the answer. But I have seen many scenes on video where the police gets massive beaten up without responding to it. Well, the whole Maidan happenings especially about the death tolls are until nowadays unresolved. We all saw the german Monitor report and the BBC report about the Maidan events, about the shootings against protesters which did happen not only by government forces and the question who did start it.

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

And the same night after signing that agreement Janukowytsch fled the country. The presidential palace was stormed after the people learned that he is gone. Why did he flee the country? Because he knew that the violence spiraled so far out of control (for wich he bears a great responsibility) that he is done if the people see how much money he has been stealing, and that if the protesters get to him or if he has to step down (wich was agreed upon in the agreement) he will face harsh consequences. He fucked up royally, and his boss in Moscow could have told him much sooner to not fuck up that much.

Yes, people were sick of him stealing, so they elected an oligarch as president and a boxer as mayor. Surely they are qualified and can successfully run the country without stealing.

[oxmox 73]

I think best to just keep putting up news and video links like before and determine what we think ourselves based some shared info

For my understanding a forum exist to have the possibilities for discussions, news alone are readable and accesable by anyone anyway.

Yes, people were sick of him stealing, so they elected an oligarch as president and a boxer as mayor. Surely they are qualified and can successfully run the country without stealing.

But it is understandable that they did want to have a change, isnt it.

Poroshenko says rebels have withdrawn significant amount of heavy weapons

(Reuters) - Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday pro-Russian rebels had withdrawn a significant amount of weaponry from the front-lines in eastern Ukraine in accordance with a three-week-old ceasefire deal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/09/us-ukraine-crisis-poroshenko-idUSKBN0M528B20150309

At least Six alleged suicides of Ukrainian politicians within less than two months.

January 26th: Mykola Serhiyenko, former Ukrzaliznytsia boss appointed by Yanukovich's PM Azarov. "Shot himself with a rifle"

January 29th: Oleksiy Kolesnyk, Kharkiv regional government head. "Hanged himself"

February 25th: Sergey Walter, Party of Regions mayor of Melitopol. "Hanged himself"

February 26th: Oleksandr Bordyuh, chief police deputy of Melitopol. "Hanged himself"

February 28th: Mykhaylo Chechetov, deputy chairman of Party of Regions. "Jumped from his apartment window"

March 10th: Ukrainian parliamentarian Melnyk, Party of Regions. "Shot himself with a rifle"

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[oxmox 73]

Suicide Or Homicide? In Ukraine, Old-Guard Officials Dying Mysteriously

This year Ukraine has seen a bizarre string of deaths involving high-ranking officials, including a ex-city mayor, a former railway executive, and the former head of the state body in charge of privatization.

A total of five officials (in the meanwhile six with Melnyk 10th March) died in a single 34-day period between January 28 and February 28. In each case, the deaths have been ruled probable suicides. But the victims' political allegiances and job histories have led many in Ukraine to suspect that the men were in fact murdered:

January 26Mykola Serhiyenko

The former first deputy chief of the state-run Ukrainian Railways, died in his Kyiv home after apparently shooting himself with a registered hunting rifle.

Serhiyenko, who worked with Ukrainian Railways from April 2010 to April 2014, had been appointed to the post by Mykola Azarov, the former prime minister under Viktor Yanukovych.

January 29 -- Oleksiy Kolesnyk

Former head of the Kharkiv regional government, died after apparently hanging himself.

Kolesnyk, 64, did not leave a suicide note, but media and investigators have hinted he may have killed himself, noting that his death took place on the birthday of his friend and fellow politician, former Kharkiv Governor and Party of Regions ideologue Yevhen Kushnaryov..

February 25 -- Serhiy Walter

The former mayor of the southeastern city of Melitopol, reportedly hanged himself.

A member of the Party of Regions who had served as the head of Melitopol since 2010.

Walter was forced to attend some 145 hearings during his trial, with prosecutors calling for 14 years' imprisonment. Throughout the proceedings, he insisted he was innocent. Walter was due to attend a new hearing on the day he died.

February 26 -- Oleksandr Bordyuh

One day after Walter's death, the body of the 47-year-old deputy chief of the Melitopol police, Oleksandr Bordyuh, was found in a garage.

Media reported that the cause of Bordyuh's death was ruled a "hypertensive crisis," or stroke -- a term that police frequently use in instances of suicide.

February 28 -- Mykhaylo Chechetov

ex-deputy chairman of the Party of Regions faction in Ukraine's parliament.

The death came just days after Chechetov was arrested for fraud and abuse of office stemming from his two years at the helm of the powerful State Property Fund.

March 10th -- Stanislav Melnyk

Former member of the Ukrainian parliament found dead, Party of Regions.

A former member of the Ukrainian parliament (Party of Regions) and businessman Stanislav Melnyk has been found dead in his apartment in the town of Ukrainka in the Kyiv Oblast. Early reports suggest that he had committed a suicide after shooting himself with a rifle.

The recent string of deaths comes 10 years after two more resonant cases that followed closely on the heels of the Orange Revolution. Heorhiy Kirpa, transport minister under Kuchma, was found dead in late December, 2004. His death came two days after the rerun of the second round of presidential elections that handed Yushchenko the win over Yanukovych.

The following March, Kuchma's former interior minister, Yuriy Kravchenko, died one day after being called as a witness in the resurrected case of slain journalist Heorhiy Gongadze.

Both deaths were officially ruled suicides -- even though, in Kravchenko's case, it had taken two gunshots to kill him.

http://www.rferl.org/content/suicide-homicide-ukraine-officials/26888375.html

@Mods/Admins

can you move it please into the Ukraine Thread, sorry thx.

btw would be cool to have an option to change the title for spelling or other reasons.

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[Sub-Human 10]

Hopefully same fate awaits pro-Putin politicians and oligarchs.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Shooting your self with a "rifle" must be pretty awkward.